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My group and I are fairly new to this whole thing (a couple of us played back in the AD&D days, long, long ago). I've taken on the challenge of DM'ing and am enjoying it for the most part. But one thing I'm having trouble getting my head around is the Surprise round. I understand the concept, but I just haven't really figured out when or how it should be used. I'm looking for any advice or insight on the subject.
If more information is needed from me, please let me know.
Thank you very much,
Tim
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Welcome to the boards, Tim!
In short, a surprise round is the first round of combat in an encounter where one party has initiated combat without the other party's awareness. Usually, this is because of some kind of ambush situation, whether it be via stealth, invisibility, or some other reason.
In the surprise round, the "surprised" party takes no actions as they are suddenly set upon by the ambushers. Initiative is rolled as normal, but the ambushers are the only ones to actually do anything in the first round. In the second round, everything falls into the intiative order and combat proceeds as normal.
The only important thing to note is that, in a surprise situation, the "surprised" party is considered flat-footed until they take an action. Let me try to make a quick explanation...
Party #1 is the ambusher. For simplicity's sake, we'll say Party #1 consists of two rogues. They've been hiding in the bushes waiting to jump Party #2 as they walk down the road. Party #2 (we'll say it is comprised of two fighters) takes no actions in the first round, but they roll initiative as usual. Let's assume that the initiatives come out looking like this: Rogue 1 - 20, Fighter 1 - 16, Rogue 2 - 10, Fighter 2 - 8.
In round 1, the fighters do nothing and are flat-footed, but the rogues can only take a single standard action (no full attack actions during the surprise round). Let's assume the rogues throw knives at the fighters and hit them with Sneak Attack (if they're within 30 feet). Then, in round 2, rogue 1 goes first. He gets a full round of actions now, and the fighters are both STILL flat-footed. Then it's fighter 1's turn and he gets his full round of actions. Now rogue 2 goes. If rogue 2 attacks fighter 1, fighter 1 is no longer flat-footed because he has acted. Fighter 2, however, is still flat-footed until his action.
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Thanks for that, Fatespinner. I think that clears up how it works quite nicely.
In a typical dungeon type of situation, would this come up in the normal course of events, or really only when one group or the other is actively trying to surprise the other. By that, I mean, it's common in our group for the players to come up to a door, try to listen for sounds on the other side, and then move into the room. If there were hostile creatures in the room that they didn't hear through the door, is there any chance for surprise (assuming the hostiles didn't have invisibility or an ambush set up)? And should the PC's have a chance at surprising the creatures in the room? I have been playing this as a no-go, as it seems to me just opening the door would be a giveaway.
I'm probably over-thinking this whole thing. It just seems odd to me that I haven't come across a situation where surprise seemed appropriate, so I'm assuming I'm misinterpreting something.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Generally speaking, opening the door would forego any chance of surprise, yes. However, if, say, the party's rogue readies an action and says "When the fighter opens the door, I shoot my crossbow at the closest bad guy," then I'd say that the rogue, at least, would get a surprise action when the party's fighter throws the door open.
Actually, there was a very similiar example in 3.5 DMG or Rules Compendium, not sure.
If you avoid detection through stealth and hear the creatures in the other room you still get the surprise round. This also works for teleporting the buffed up party to previously scryed location so you neutralize the completly unprepared oposiition before they can act.
The logic behind this is that combat, and its cuantification in rounds, doesn´t start until people stabbing each other.
Humbly,
Yawar
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In a typical dungeon type of situation, would this come up in the normal course of events, or really only when one group or the other is actively trying to surprise the other.
While the ambush is the most common, don't forget that it's possible for members of both sides to be aware of the other and can act in the surprise round.
Your group approaches a door and hears Orcs on the other side playing cards. One Orc though is a little on edge, a bit paranoid. He would roll a perception to hear the party outside of the door. If he succeeds, the Orc and the party would act in the surprise round according to initiative. Unless he is sitting there with a loaded crossbow in his lap, he probably won't be able to do much, but if he goes first he won't be flat-footed.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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A bad guy is talking with you and suddenly attacks (even 'surprisingly' attacks) is an initiative check (you've been talking with him.. he's been detected).
In this scenario, I might allow the bad guy a Bluff check (opposed by Sense Motive, as normal) to "take you by surprise" much in the same way that feinting works for the first attack. That's my interpretation of things, though, not the rules as written.
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Generally speaking, opening the door would forego any chance of surprise, yes. However, if, say, the party's rogue readies an action and says "When the fighter opens the door, I shoot my crossbow at the closest bad guy," then I'd say that the rogue, at least, would get a surprise action when the party's fighter throws the door open.
I thought you can only use 'ready' action during combat, i.e. after initiative has been rolled? And I thought it was "tweaked" to work that way in 3.5 to prevent abuse, i.e. so that nobody could claim that his/her PC is going through the dungeon and readying every round to "shoot at the first enemy I get a glimpse of" and other such silliness?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I thought you can only use 'ready' action during combat, i.e. after initiative has been rolled? And I thought it was "tweaked" to work that way in 3.5 to prevent abuse, i.e. so that nobody could claim that his/her PC is going through the dungeon and readying every round to "shoot at the first enemy I get a glimpse of" and other such silliness?
You can only ready an action in response to a stimulus enacted by another party such as "when the fighter opens the door" or "whenever the wizard begins casting." You can't just walk around being "readied."
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I thought you can only use 'ready' action during combat, i.e. after initiative has been rolled? And I thought it was "tweaked" to work that way in 3.5 to prevent abuse, i.e. so that nobody could claim that his/her PC is going through the dungeon and readying every round to "shoot at the first enemy I get a glimpse of" and other such silliness?You can only ready an action in response to a stimulus enacted by another party such as "when the fighter opens the door" or "whenever the wizard begins casting." You can't just walk around being "readied."
Are you sure you're not recalling the 3.0 rules? Because I think it was definitely clarified in 3.5 as "only-in-combat" type of action. This is from PRD:
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Are you sure you're not recalling the 3.0 rules? Because I think it was definitely clarified in 3.5 as "only-in-combat" type of action.
Well, okay, RAW defines it as "in-combat," but in my opinion, if the rogue aims his crossbow at the door, nods to the fighter, and the fighter kicks it open... the rogue can take his "surprise shot" on the sorry sap in the doorway and get his sneak attack before initiative is even an issue (unless, of course, the bad guys heard the party coming, but that's another case entirely).
Yes, I realize my opinion has no bearing on the rules, but this seems common sense to me and I don't feel it's unfair or unbalanced in any way. YMMV. :)