OK, so over the last two weeks, we put our ROTR campaign on hold to playtest the new character classes. I allowed everyone to roll up a 6th level character, but they had to pick a single classed, APG character.
So, we have:
Half-orc Cavalier
Human Inquisitor
Human Alchemist
Elven Summoner.
Eidolon is Quadruped with Large, Claws, Energy Attack (Claws), Lunge, Increased Armor.
Right now, the Eidolon has more HP than anyone else (by almost 15) and, with the Claws (now a primary attack), it has 4 attacks per turn at 12/12/12/7 with more damage than anyone else.
The summoner just sits back and shoots arrows. Pretty much, the Eidolon can take on almost any CR 6 encounter they meet by himself! He has more attacks for more damage than the Cav or Inq, moves at speed 40, has a rediculous number of HP, and a huge CMB...
The only thing the Eidolon doesn't have is good skills or spells.
Now, the other thing we are seeing is that the Alchemist is having trouble in dungeons, where almost all of his abilities and attacks require more space to use properly. Splash and radius attacks work poorly when all of your allies are in BTB melee.
I think the Alchemist needs more potion abilites (he's a fragging Alchemist for Aroden's sake!)
And Increased Size needs to be more expensive for the Eidolon, claws (and other additional attacks) should have the -5 secondary attack modifier, and the Eidolon should have a cleric BAB.
The Eidolon should not be better at fighting than a Cavalier with a magic sword...
Any thoughts?
My thoughts.
A) HP - Not a big thing, he's an outsider, he's supposed to be a tank. I'm good with him having high HP.
B) Skills - I think the Eidelon can have good skills, but you have to work extra hard at it. I would be much happier if there were base form options for 'smarter' over 'harder' eidelons. Eidelons with weaker physical stats but higher mental ones, for builds that are not designed as combat monsters.
C) Attacks - I don't think the attack costs need to be adjusted, except maybe for energy attack, allowing it to be bought either for all or for single or group (IE: All vs Claws vs 1 bite) with 3 different costs. I do however, think that what we do need is a structuring on how many attacks can be purchased. For example, limit the number of points spent on attacks to Level + 1.
D) Eidelon should not be better than cavalier - Why not? Why is it assumed that a caster class (summoner) with no attack spells should not have a class ability that makes him a good fighter on the field? The cavalier with the magic sword is not a combat optimized character, half his abilities don't work in the dungeon because he can't ride his mount. He's a flair/flavor character.
E) Speaking of the cavalier not being able to get his horse in the dungeon... the summoner has the same issue with a large/huge eidelon. Enforce that! Large and huge is an issue! Don't make it easy on the summoner. I run a campaign with a summoner who has a medium eidelon. But, he's made it into a green dragon clone. Guess what? Towns attack it on sight! Guards raise the alarm when it comes into town and people start shooting arrows at it. Because it's a green dragon!
F) Alchemist - What can I say? This class can be way overpowered or way underpowered, depending on the situation it finds itself in. In a dungeon he's at a disadvantage. On open ground above ground he's got a huge advantage. I really don't particularly like this class honestly.
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It's been said before that claws are supposed to be primary weapons. The secondary part in their description was a mistake.
As for the Eidolon being overpowered, a druid said it best.
A lot of people agree that the Alchemist should have more potion abilities, and I think Jason said they were going to try and incorparate a few in the final book.
At this point I think we are just beating a dead horse in regards to the Eidolon. Jason already stated that changes to the Eidolon are coming. I think it would be more beneficial if Dms adjusted the Eidolon to how they think it should be balanced and posted how that play tested.
I have to agree with MTD. Who cares if the Eidolon is stronger then the Cavalier there is so many way to build characters one player could have a less optimized Cavalier and another player could have a more optimized Eidolon. It has already been stated a Cavalier can select any animal options a Druid can. How about a large tiger or a triceratops for a mount? What about a large APE? How about a 1/2 ling on an APE! I know that sounds crazy but I think it is do able you would take -5 on your ride checks but it would offer you lots more flexibility in dungeons. Not to mention your ape would probably be stronger then you! You could even go a small race for your cavalier and ride around on medium mounts. How about a flying mount? So many possibilities.
I totally disagree that Eidolon can't have good skills. For 1 evo point a Eidolon can get +8 on any skill. It seems players who build Eidolon just want the most broken damage dealer instead of building it sensibly. I think some DMs focus too much on combat.
At this point I think we are just beating a dead horse in regards to the Eidolon. Jason already stated that changes to the Eidolon are coming. I think it would be more beneficial if Dms adjusted the Eidolon to how they think it should be balanced and posted how that play tested.
I have to agree with MTD. Who cares if the Eidolon is stronger then the Cavalier there is so many way to build characters one player could have a less optimized Cavalier and another player could have a more optimized Eidolon. It has already been stated a Cavalier can select any animal options a Druid can. How about a large tiger or a triceratops for a mount? What about a large APE? How about a 1/2 ling on an APE! I know that sounds crazy but I think it is do able you would take -5 on your ride checks but it would offer you lots more flexibility in dungeons. Not to mention your ape would probably be stronger then you! You could even go a small race for your cavalier and ride around on medium mounts. How about a flying mount? So many possibilities.
I totally disagree that Eidolon can't have good skills. For 1 evo point a Eidolon can get +8 on any skill. It seems players who build Eidolon just want the most broken damage dealer instead of building it sensibly. I think some DMs focus too much on combat.
And for people who want to compare the Eidolon to the Druid's Animal Companion...well, the Cavalier's horse is supposed to be built on the same template as an animal companion. But the level 6 Companioned Horse wouldn't last 2 turns against the Eidolon... (Add the Cavalier and maybe that's 4 turns)
OK, this IS a playtest, and they were asking for our feedback. And this is more of a combat adventure than the regular games I run.
However,
It is impossible, at level 6, to build a cavalier (supposed to be a main combat character) who can stand up to the Eidolon in combat. The extra 2 or 3 AC that the cav can get with good armor over the Eidolon is negated by the 2 extra attacks at greater damage. The whole party thinks the Eidolon is overpowered.
(OK, its probably not impossible if you do some heavy munchkinning, but we did a very standard Eidolon and a pretty standard Cav).
If someone wants to summon a creature for a few turns that is tougher than the Cav, that's part of a spellcaster. But to have a character who has an extra character to play (Summoner- average spellcaster with good combat + Eidolon: Super Tank) makes everyone else, including the melee types, feel inadequate in combat.
I know its not supposed to be about who is tougher/ better. But the various combat characters in PF (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Cavalier) should expect to be better in combat, turn for turn, than a Summoner. IT's part of their party role.
And the Cav's horse is supposed to be built on the Druid Animal Companion template. But the 6th level Animal COmpanion Horse woud last about 2 turns against the 6th level Eidolon. 4 turns if you add the cavalier.
However, I think this is a fixable problem if you just increase the cost of things like size increase, drop the HD from d10 to d8, drop the BAB from fighter to cleric, and make extra attacks as secondary (-5).
Like that I'd be happy.
Anyway, they asked for feedback from actual playtesting, and our feedback is: Eidolon Overpowered.
If it remains this way, I'm going to have to ban the summoner from my two PF campaigns.
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I know its not supposed to be about who is tougher/ better. But the various combat characters in PF (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Cavalier) should expect to be better in combat, turn for turn, than a Summoner. IT's part of their party role.
See, I think this might be the disconnect. Yes, the summoner is a spellcaster. But it is not a spell casting class. By that, I mean that while it can cast spells, it has a limited list and it's spells are designed as buffing spells only.
A lot of people are coming at the summoner class as 'Oh, it's a spellcasting class, it can't do combat well'. The thing is, the summoner is NOT a spellcasting class that can do combat.
It is an ADAPTABLE class. That is, it is designed to be able to fill in for any one class in the standard four. However, it is heavily skewed towards replacing the fighter. Note that. It's really designed to be a magical MELEE class. So it is perfectly acceptable for a class that is designed to replace Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian as the team tank to do that job.
I think if people would quit comparing the class to fighters and saying 'Hey, these guys are casters they are just as powerful as fighters in combat, evil bad wrong!' and started looking at them as 'Ok, here's a magical flavored tank class that can replace a fighter for an all magic party' then they might not think it's so overpowered.
I know its not supposed to be about who is tougher/ better. But the various combat characters in PF (Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, Cavalier) should expect to be better in combat, turn for turn, than a Summoner. IT's part of their party role.
See, I think this might be the disconnect. Yes, the summoner is a spellcaster. But it is not a spell casting class. By that, I mean that while it can cast spells, it has a limited list and it's spells are designed as buffing spells only.
A lot of people are coming at the summoner class as 'Oh, it's a spellcasting class, it can't do combat well'. The thing is, the summoner is NOT a spellcasting class that can do combat.
It is an ADAPTABLE class. That is, it is designed to be able to fill in for any one class in the standard four. However, it is heavily skewed towards replacing the fighter. Note that. It's really designed to be a magical MELEE class. So it is perfectly acceptable for a class that is designed to replace Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian as the team tank to do that job.
I think if people would quit comparing the class to fighters and saying 'Hey, these guys are casters they are just as powerful as fighters in combat, evil bad wrong!' and started looking at them as 'Ok, here's a magical flavored tank class that can replace a fighter for an all magic party' then they might not think it's so overpowered.
No, these are casters that are BETTER at combat than fighters.
And an "all magic party", should, by definition, not have anyone better than the fighter at combat...
I'm not saying that it can't be GOOD at combat. But a spellcasting class (and it IS a spellcasting class, just not as good as some of the big boys like Wizard and Cleric) should not be BETTER at hitting, cranking out damage, and taking a hit, turn for turn, as the fighter/paladin/ranger/barbarian/cavalier.
I don't mind it being able to do a lot of things well. I just don;t want it to do too many roles BETTER than the classes that are supposed to be good at them.
Oh, and for number of attacks, I forgot to add in the Summoner. So, in reality, its 12/12/12/7 and 6 for total attacks per turn vs the Cavaliers 13/8....
Its Unbalanced.
the ediolon should only be getting 3 attacks because the high base attack bonus doesnt give ediolons extra attacks per round and as far as the other problem is concerned i would do two things 1st i would really penalize the creature for being large by mkeing smaller areas and encourage other players to use it as cover thus making things target it more 2nd i would make the player choose either bite or claws and make the other a secondary attack regardless of what the apg says they are because then it would be much more reasonable. also if u play again have the cavalier player write up a standard fighter at the same level as the ediolon instead of the cavalier because a fighter made right would easily out shine the ediolon there are alot of feats that allow the fighter to stand out just by having other options one of which is the grapple build or two weapon fighting with a main hand weapon and a net held in a hand with a spiked gauntlet (not a heavy dmg build but will stand out as a very well made control build. once the net is thrown he switches to beating on the guy with say his mace and spiked gauntlet).
all that said i actually do agree that the ediolon is a bit too powerful if u include all of the summoners other options. but those are just a few things that i think will help
the ediolon should only be getting 3 attacks because the high base attack bonus doesnt give ediolons extra attacks per round and as far as the other problem is concerned i would do two things 1st i would really penalize the creature for being large by mkeing smaller areas and encourage other players to use it as cover thus making things target it more 2nd i would make the player choose either bite or claws and make the other a secondary attack regardless of what the apg says they are because then it would be much more reasonable. also if u play again have the cavalier player write up a standard fighter at the same level as the ediolon instead of the cavalier because a fighter made right would easily out shine the ediolon there are alot of feats that allow the fighter to stand out just by having other options one of which is the grapple build or two weapon fighting with a main hand weapon and a net held in a hand with a spiked gauntlet (not a heavy dmg build but will stand out as a very well made control build. once the net is thrown he switches to beating on the guy with say his mace and spiked gauntlet).
all that said i actually do agree that the ediolon is a bit too powerful if u include all of the summoners other options. but those are just a few things that i think will help
I mihgt be missing something. Why doesn't it get the iterative attack for the high BAB?
copied straight from apg
BAB: This is the eidolon’s base attack bonus. An
eidolon’s base attack bonus is equal to its Hit Dice.
Eidolons do not gain additional attacks using their
natural weapons for a high base attack bonus.
That's not just an eidolon thing. Natural attacks do not benefit from iterative attacks as a standard rule.
copied straight from apg
BAB: This is the eidolon’s base attack bonus. An
eidolon’s base attack bonus is equal to its Hit Dice.
Eidolons do not gain additional attacks using their
natural weapons for a high base attack bonus.
Thanks. Missed that.
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Eidolon Advantages over Fighter: Size(maybe), multiple natural attack(claw, claw, bite, etc. maybe). Natural Armor. Hit Dice for the Level(until lv12).
Fighter advantages over Eidolon: Feats. Tons of them. Heavy armor prof at lv1, better BAB, mutiple attacks with weapons.
Look at all those nice Critical feats a fighter can get. Now give said fighter a falchion. The Eidolon also has a glaring weakness: the Summoner.
If I have missed something, please make me aware of it.
At this point I think we are just beating a dead horse in regards to the Eidolon. Jason already stated that changes to the Eidolon are coming. I think it would be more beneficial if Dms adjusted the Eidolon to how they think it should be balanced and posted how that play tested.
I have to agree with MTD. Who cares if the Eidolon is stronger then the Cavalier there is so many way to build characters one player could have a less optimized Cavalier and another player could have a more optimized Eidolon. It has already been stated a Cavalier can select any animal options a Druid can. How about a large tiger or a triceratops for a mount? What about a large APE? How about a 1/2 ling on an APE! I know that sounds crazy but I think it is do able you would take -5 on your ride checks but it would offer you lots more flexibility in dungeons. Not to mention your ape would probably be stronger then you! You could even go a small race for your cavalier and ride around on medium mounts. How about a flying mount? So many possibilities.
I totally disagree that Eidolon can't have good skills. For 1 evo point a Eidolon can get +8 on any skill. It seems players who build Eidolon just want the most broken damage dealer instead of building it sensibly. I think some DMs focus too much on combat.
And for people who want to compare the Eidolon to the Druid's Animal Companion...well, the Cavalier's horse is supposed to be built on the same template as an animal companion. But the level 6 Companioned Horse wouldn't last 2 turns against the Eidolon... (Add the Cavalier and maybe that's 4 turns)
OK, this IS a playtest, and they were asking for our feedback. And this is more of a combat adventure than the regular games I run.
However,
It is impossible, at level 6, to build a cavalier (supposed to be a main combat character) who can stand up to the Eidolon in combat. The extra 2 or 3 AC that the cav can get with good armor over the Eidolon is negated by the 2 extra attacks...
please post the stats of your Eidolon and I will make a Cavalier and his mount that can easily beat it.
cutting the 'free' natural armor in half helps, bringing it closer to the 'stats by CR' chart in the bestiary.
And remember, a good sign of balance is the difficulty of the choice. a combat oriented caster should, at best, match him.
Eidolon is Quadruped with Large, Claws, Energy Attack (Claws), Lunge, Increased Armor.
large is 3 evo points, claws another 1, energy attacks is 2, increase armor 1. By lunge did you mean reach? its a 1 point evo that effects 1 attack. If you did mean reach that leaves just 1 evo point left, and he would have three feats.
Right now, the Eidolon has more HP than anyone else (by almost 15) and, with the Claws (now a primary attack), it has 4 attacks per turn at 12/12/12/7 with more damage than anyone else.
The base HP for level 6 for the Eidolon is 33, base con and the con gain from large gives it anothre 18 points for a total of 51, if the ability increase was placed in con that would give it another 6 for a total of 57.. so assuming he has the 57, and you say he has 15 more than the next highest that would mean the next person only has 42 HP at level 6... so I just have to ask, why the hell are the people in your party taking 10 or less con? A cavalier with 10 con has 40 HP, if he is planing on being a front line fighter he should really have at least a 14 con thus giving him 52 HP, so only 5 less than the Eidolon that puts it stat gain into con.
The summoner just sits back and shoots arrows. Pretty much, the Eidolon can take on almost any CR 6 encounter they meet by himself! He has more attacks for more damage than the Cav or Inq, moves at speed 40, has a rediculous number of HP, and a huge CMB...
The Eidolon would be hitting for d8+7+d6 and 2xd6+7+d6. Note that level 6 is a bad level for cavaliers as they are 1 level off their good pets becoming large. But the character itself should have a +1 weapon, +2 str belt giving him a str of at least 20 and thus should be hitting for weapon damage +8 with a two handed weapon.. so lets say a greatsword would be doing 2d6+8 and against his challenge target would be 4d6+8. Since we have a limited selection of mounts, lets just take the horse. It will do d4+5 and 2xd6+2.
For attack bonus the Eidolon is going to have 6 BAB, -1 size, +6 str. Since you said he had a +12 I am assuming an amulet of mighty fist, so he has +12 to hit and does +8 instead of +7 damage. The caviler should have 6 BAB, +5 str, +1 enhancement and +1 weapon focus for a total of +13. The horse would be 4 BAB, +5 str for +9 with the bite and +4 with the hooves.So for a sample CR 6 encounter, lets use 2 dire boars. They have an AC of 15, and lets say they moved in so all partys get a full attack. The Eidolon does an average of 41.2 damage, the Cav does 36.3 and the horse does 11.125. Since we have no idea on the stats on the summoner I cant even bring him into this, but the Eidolon does 41.2 compared to the combined 47.425 of the Cav. If the Cav was one level higher he could have a much better pet and thus would be doing better.
My guess is the caviler in your party isnt as optimized for combat, that combined with the fact at level 6 the summoner just got a huge boost in power from being able to have a large pet and the caviler is a level off of that same boost, it isnt really a fair comparison.
Eidolons get very broken as they gain levels just due to the system mechanics of natural attacks compared to weapon attacks, and the fact the Eidolon can have lots of attacks. Jason has already acknowledged this issue.
If the summoner just goes for raw combat they are very overpowred, but I think the intent was for the eidolon to have some non-combat stuff as well, like flight, resistances, scent
Eidolon is Quadruped with Large, Claws, Energy Attack (Claws), Lunge, Increased Armor.large is 3 evo points, claws another 1, energy attacks is 2, increase armor 1. By lunge did you mean reach? its a 1 point evo that effects 1 attack. If you did mean reach that leaves just 1 evo point left, and he would have three feats.
Right now, the Eidolon has more HP than anyone else (by almost 15) and, with the Claws (now a primary attack), it has 4 attacks per turn at 12/12/12/7 with more damage than anyone else.The base HP for level 6 for the Eidolon is 33, base con and the con gain from large gives it anothre 18 points for a total of 51, if the ability increase was placed in con that would give it another 6 for a total of 57.. so assuming he has the 57, and you say he has 15 more than the next highest that would mean the next person only has 42 HP at level 6... so I just have to ask, why the hell are the people in your party taking 10 or less con? A cavalier with 10 con has 40 HP, if he is planing on being a front line fighter he should really have at least a 14 con thus giving him 52 HP, so only 5 less than the Eidolon that puts it stat gain into con.
The summoner just sits back and shoots arrows. Pretty much, the Eidolon can take on almost any CR 6 encounter they meet by himself! He has more attacks for more damage than the Cav or Inq, moves at speed 40, has a rediculous number of HP, and a huge CMB...The Eidolon would be hitting for d8+7+d6 and 2xd6+7+d6. Note that level 6 is a bad level for cavaliers as they are 1 level off their good pets becoming large. But the character itself should have a +1 weapon, +2 str belt giving him a str of at least 20 and thus should be hitting for weapon damage +8 with a two handed weapon.. so lets say a greatsword would be doing 2d6+8 and against his challenge target would be 4d6+8. Since we have a limited selection of mounts, lets just take the horse. It will do d4+5 and 2xd6+2.
For...
actually at 4th level the horse becomes combat trained, the hooves become primary.
4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con
+2; Special Qualities combat trained (see the Pathfinder
RPG Bestiary).
Trying to play a cavalier without its mount and making him a front line fighter is like a rogue who refuses to sneak attack.
You want me to prove Eidolon is overpowered ?
Okey ...
Level 6 right ?
That means 9 Evo's.
Large - 3 points
6x tentacles - 6 points.
Biped Large Eidolon
Str 26(Base 16 + 2 level + 8 large)
Dex 14(14 base +2 level - 2 large)
Con 18(13 base +2 level + 1 ability score increase)
Feats:
Improved Natural Attack (Tentacle)
Power Attack
Toughness
AC 18 (+6 natural armor +2 dex)
Give him a normal non-magical falchion.
Falchion - Attack Bonus +13; Damage 2d6 + 12
6x Tentacles - Attack Bonus +8; Damage 1d8 + 4
Which brings us to the point that Eidolon got higher attack bonus than fighter of the same level, winning 1 attack with falchion by a land slide.
+8 for other 6 attacks, is a bit below fighters 1st attack, but well beyond his 2nd attack, but this guy got 6 attacks each dealing same damage as a guy with str 18 holding longsword in main hand.
What i wrote up is doing 6d8 + 2d6 damage, thats 34 damage without adding in strength or possible power attack, or 70 damage with strength but without power attack. And if this guy can't hit with his secondary attacks, than your party rogue got even less chance.
What do you need AC for when you can down any enemy of CR 6 in 1 round without buffs, magic items or anything else ?
I didn't even go into great deal to optimize him as you can see, i just slapped on him what i found amusing, and having unlimited number of 1d8 +1/2 str attacks even with -5 (at level 9 -2 to attacks) IS amusing for anyone to have. Adding on belt of whatever str + 4 would push things even higher,etc.
Truthfully i LOVE the idea of Summoner, but Eidolon needs some fixing.
Psion in 3.5 could do similar thing - Astral Constructs and while i was confused and amused by some things they were capable of, it wasn't nearly as silly as this.
Player in my game rolled a Summoner, after ruining one session he rolled a new character - both of us agreed on this.
While i don't have problem with some spellcaster getting near to fighter or martial classes in well ... being martial, i do not agree that special ability of a class should be stronger than rest of that class/character buffed to the bone. Lets not get into "But summoner only got buffing spells on his list" cause thats not really a drawback at all - its just one of the craziest synergies i ever found in any table top games i ever played.
As things look now, you got 2 characters, 1 for RP purposes and "official" stuff, while other is there to pummel face better than rest of your party put together.
Now only thing how i could see this being balanced is getting higher Evo costs on some things, limitations on others or simply leaving Summoner in your party few levels below rest of the gaming group :P
Also making Eidolon's standard starting size small, would help out a great deal, cause he would have to spend 2-3 evo points to bring him to medium size, if bear can start as a small sized animal, this can certainly start as a small sized something.
The Summoner's Eidolon is an outsider that starts with 2 Hit Dice at 1st level(just the Druid's Animal Comapanion). It's hit dice are d10's because it is an outsider and it's BAB reflects that.
That does not make it ballanced.
You want me to prove Eidolon is overpowered ?
Okey ...
James has already posted that they are going to need to put some limits on attacks for the Eidelon. Not trying to deter you from your posting, but, just pointing out that the staff has already acknowledged this, so at this point, it's like beating a dead horse.
Until and unless they put out something stating how they are going to limit it (my own guess is by point limits, assigning evo's to groups like Attack, Defense, Utility and then limiting the points per group per level, in order to enforce a more rounded Eidelon.
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The Summoner's Eidolon is an outsider that starts with 2 Hit Dice at 1st level(just the Druid's Animal Comapanion). It's hit dice are d10's because it is an outsider and it's BAB reflects that.That does not make it ballanced.
I was replying to this little bit of Zoddy's post.
Which brings us to the point that Eidolon got higher attack bonus than fighter of the same level, winning 1 attack with falchion by a land slide.
You want me to prove Eidolon is overpowered ?
Okey ...
James has already posted that they are going to need to put some limits on attacks for the Eidelon. Not trying to deter you from your posting, but, just pointing out that the staff has already acknowledged this, so at this point, it's like beating a dead horse.
Until and unless they put out something stating how they are going to limit it (my own guess is by point limits, assigning evo's to groups like Attack, Defense, Utility and then limiting the points per group per level, in order to enforce a more rounded Eidelon.
Thanks for clarification, i didn't spend much time on this part of the forum, so i wasn't aware, thanks again.
Why in Torag's name do they start as medium ?
No. of attacks should be limited by a size of an Eidolon, its improper for a Large Eidolon to have 10 tentacle attacks, he would look like an anime sea urchin.
The Summoner's Eidolon is an outsider that starts with 2 Hit Dice at 1st level(just the Druid's Animal Comapanion). It's hit dice are d10's because it is an outsider and it's BAB reflects that.That does not make it ballanced.I was replying to this little bit of Zoddy's post.
Which brings us to the point that Eidolon got higher attack bonus than fighter of the same level, winning 1 attack with falchion by a land slide.
Which again doesn't have anything to do with him being outsider - yes outsiders get full BAB - but his HD allows him to have such high BAB and strength gain from large allows him to have +13 to hit, i have no problem with him being outsider, problems in my eyes are that they start as medium and that they go up to 17 HD, where Animal Companion go up to 16.
Wasn't trying to offend you Dragonborn, your clarification is also very welcome, but as you know 2 wrongs doesn't make a right :)
Thanks for clarification, i didn't spend much time on this part of the forum, so i wasn't aware, thanks again.Why in Torag's name do they start as medium ?
No. of attacks should be limited by a size of an Eidolon, its improper for a Large Eidolon to have 10 tentacle attacks, he would look like an anime sea urchin.
No problem.
They start as medium because that's the default size for D&D. If you look though, you can make them small or medium. I built a small skill powered Eidelon as an example, it worked very very well as a replacement for a rogue.
And I wouldn't have a problem with a large 15th level eidelon having 10 tentacle attacks, he's still not going to be putting out a lot of dice per attack. I would have a problem with a 5th level one having that many though.
Well yea, but as things stand you will be able to totally remake your Eidolon each time you level up, being able to have 10 tentacle attacks at 5th and than at 10th you remove them and take something else cause tentacles aren't effective anymore duo to DR/Hardness, which shouldn't be the case.
Mostly you should be able to shift last few Evolution points that you get.
For example, on 5th you gain 1 Evolution point, when you hit 6th you gain another one, so you can put 1 Evolution point somewhere and switch 1 from 5th level into something else. Than when you get to 7th level, you can switch Evolution point you got on 6th, but not the one you got on 5th and lower.
It would make players think about evolutions they want to take instead of just slapping them together, but also give them the opportunity to try some other stuff and if they don't like it to be able to switch it back. Eidolon should be somewhat unique in my eyes, ever shifting so it continues to evolve in non optimization kind of way, not to just make new one every time you get bored with current one or current one starts to be ineffective cause of your poor choices.
Mostly you should be able to shift last few Evolution points that you get.
For example, on 5th you gain 1 Evolution point, when you hit 6th you gain another one, so you can put 1 Evolution point somewhere and switch 1 from 5th level into something else. Than when you get to 7th level, you can switch Evolution point you got on 6th, but not the one you got on 5th and lower.It would make players think about evolutions they want to take instead of just slapping them together, but also give them the opportunity to try some other stuff and if they don't like it to be able to switch it back. Eidolon should be somewhat unique in my eyes, ever shifting so it continues to evolve in non optimization kind of way, not to just make new one every time you get bored with current one or current one starts to be ineffective cause of your poor choices.
However, unless they remove the rule that says you have to spend all evolution points at once, you can't necessarily plan out what you want, because you don't get enough evolution points at a specific level to buy an ability you want. You only get 1 or 2 extra evolution points per level, so you wouldn't even be able to purchase the 3 or 4 point evolutions (or anything spell-like abilities above a 1st level spell).
Personally, I still haven't seen any playtest data to convince me these are as inherently broken as people say they are, beyond issues that the staff has already acknowledged (too-high AC and way too many attacks). And I like the constantly mutable nature of the eidolon. I don't think any of the builds I've done at home (haven't playtested, so no point in posting) have taken advantage of it for more than a point or two, but I like the idea anyway.
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Which again doesn't have anything to do with him being outsider - yes outsiders get full BAB - but his HD allows him to have such high BAB and strength gain from large allows him to have +13 to hit, i have no problem with him being outsider, problems in my eyes are that they start as medium and that they go up to 17 HD, where Animal Companion go up to 16.
Wasn't trying to offend you Dragonborn, your clarification is also very welcome, but as you know 2 wrongs doesn't make a right :)
Animal Comapnions have lower HD(d8s), so their BAB will be lower. I posted the advantages a Eidolon has over a fighter, and vice-versa, up-thread.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but 3 lefts do!
And 2 Wrights make a plane!
And 4 Giants make a Voltron!
Any who, while all you said about comparison between fighter and Eidolon is right on the spot, you forgot one important thing ... Eidolon is just a special summon or better yet, Summoner is just a special summon of Eidolon. That would be funny, Eidolon summoning Summoner when he needs buffs.
Eidolon got evolutions, tons of them. Eidolon is bound to have a higher Strength than Fighter, probably more attacks than fighter, more ultility than fighter (scent, flight, etc), all through it sounds funny more skill points than most fighters (hehe), better saves than fighters (2 strong saves vs 1 strong save). I will give you that fighter later on will probably have easier time dealing with high DR enemies duo to Penetrating Strike. He got tons of feats that is true, but while Fighter get 21 or 22 by level 20, Eidolon get 9 by level 20 AND he gets 26 evolution points, which are as good as most feats if not better.
Dunno, it is hard to balance something like this, but giving "templates" would be a better choice - not being able to choose large as an evolution, but getting possible template of large at 6th level, but lossing movement speed or something more appropriate, like forms of attacks, etc. Dunno just wrote stuff as it popped out in my head :)
While I haven't had opportunity to test it just playing around with evolution points can show what kind of monster you could create.
Now imagine this combo:
1 Evo point: Tentacle (Ex): An eidolon possesses a long, sinuous tentacle, granting it a tentacle attack. This attack is a secondary attack. The tentacle attack deals 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution can be selected more than once.
You take this evolution times at least 19 times
3 evo points Large (Ex): An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large. The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also gives the creature a –1 size penalty to its AC and on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. The eidolon must be Medium to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.
4 evo points Huge (Ex): An eidolon grows in size, becoming Huge. The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +3 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also give the creature a –1 size penalty to its AC and attack rolls, a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. The eidolon must possess the Large evolution before selecting this evolution, and the bonuses and penalties stack. The summoner must be at least 11th level before selecting this evolution.
So at level 20 with a biped form you would have a eidolon that could attack 20 times in one round. 1 primary attack (whatever that may be but with a bonus to damage of +15) and then 19 secondary tentacle attacks that would do 1d8 +10 points of damage.
Just the tentacles alone would, if all of them hit, would do between 209 and 342 points of dmg in one round. Of course this would be all at level 20 but still that is pretty impressive.
Pretty scary really, although I think the player might end up with carpal tunnel syndrome with rolling that many times a round unless he had 19d20. It would sound pretty neat to heard that many roll, I bring on the thunder. As a player I would be saying hell ya but as a GM I would be hell no so I would say that there would have to be a cap at least on that evolution.
A suggestion
For evolutions that allow for stacking evolutions like limbs and tentacles a good rule would be that before you buy an extra pair of limbs or an extra tentacle the player must buy a different evolution first. In this way a player can still have a creature that has a lot of attacks but not as nearly as much as before but also it would balance out the eidolon in other areas and make it more well rounded.
Almost every single CR 20+ monster got DR of at least 10. Meaning tentacles would be slowing the game quiet a bit, without any real productivity in means of damage, cause you end up rolling 1d8 per attack. Also note that if main is +15, secondary is +7 (half str rounded down, i may be wrong), not +10. Also biped got 2 primary attacks with claws.
Eidolon with tentacles is slaughter house in its own right until like level 10-12, than it suddenly drops in DPR cause almost every monster start getting some kind of DR at that level. Of course that can't stop you from getting +3 holy amulet of mighty fists, but still it represents a problem.
And here is a loop hole to your suggestion - nothing is stopping players from going like this(Also this also assumes biped form):
Tentacle
Ability Increase (+2 str)
Tentacle
Reach (1st Claw)
Tentacle
Large
Tentacle
Ability Increase (+2 con)
Tentacle
Reach (2nd Claw)
Tentacle
Improved Damage (Claw)
Flight
Wing Buffet
Damage Reduction
Huge
It won't have crazy 19 tentacle attacks, but it will have +18 base str, +10 base con, reach with 2 primary claw attacks, 6 tentacle attacks each doing around +10 damage, primary claws going around +21, Note that claws do 1d10 damage, Tentacles too do 1d10 damage (feat), and wing buffet does 1d8 damage, except if you don't burn a feat for wing buffet to do 1d10 damage as well(which for this exercise i will do).
Doing around 188 damage per round, but higher damage per attack, meaning more damage goes through DR.
Also note that i didn't do the most cheesy way to do damage - Improved Damage + Improved Natural Attack - last time i looked in Summoner update i didn't saw a reference that it doesn't stack :P and 1d10 goes into what ? 2d6 ? That push it to around doing average of 200 damage per round.
As i said earlier, i think best bet about sizes in my opinion would be that Eidolon's start out as small, gaining possible templates at level 6 for medium, level 11 for large and level 16 for huge. Large and Huge templates would bring in some major disadvantages to balance themselves out even more than currently, cause lets be frank, it works for monsters and Animal Companions (cause they are weaker or they are enemies so they should be challenging) to net full benefits that size brings with it. At the very least, disadvantages of Eidolons could be explained as generic deformations of Eidolon's until they reach 20th level (capstone ability), cause they are ever shifting outsiders until than - when they reach their true form and their true potential.
Also another way to balance out Eidolon's could be to limit number of their additional limbs to their con score, being how they drop equipment every time they are sent of to their plane, con bonus from magical items or spells shouldn't count toward this limit.
Than again, this might be a problem if Paizo ever publish epic level handbook of some sorts, for players that wish to play 20+ characters, but after that point game stops being balanced anyhow in my opinion so that shouldn't be that big of a problem.
The Eidolon and Summoner are a replacement for any one other person in the party aside from a healer. Their strength is in their versatility.
Should they be able to play the fighter's role? Absolutely yes.
Should they be able to play the rogue's role? Absolutely yes.
The same goes for any other mainly melee combat or mainly skill focused class.
It is working as intended.
The issues you all are having are player based not creature based. If you /have/ heavy melee in your group, or if you /have/ a dedicated skill monkey in your group, then your Big E needs to be designed differently.
That is the absolute, pure beauty of it. Each Summoner can build his Big (or little) E to fit the party needs.
He is not Supposed to look at the fighter and say "i can do that" or the rogue and say 'i can do that" he's supposed to look at the role that is MISSING and say "I can do that, we're still a complete group".
If your fighter is heavy on AC and low on attacks then build your E to be big on attacks and low on defense. If your fighter is a big ole 2 hander fella with an int and charisma of 2 so he can get that str and con up high then build your Big E to be a tank.
If you have a fighter and barb in your group then build your Big E to replace the rogue since you'll be needing a skill monkey for things.
Its the same tired argument about wizards and clerics. "why do we need X class when the wizard can cast this and the cleric can cast that". The answer is simple. If you /have/ those things the wiz and cleric don't have to use their spells for it, but the simple ability to overlap someone else isn't over powered.
I love the Summoner. I don't love it because it can equal the damage of a fighter or barbarian or because it can match the skills of the rogue. I love it because I can go to a new game thinking "I want to be a summoner" and when I get there i can ask the players "what role do you lack" and then I can Fill it while still being a summoner. I don't have to get let down since you already have a wizard but no rogue so that is what I get stuck being. I can be what the group needs while being what I want to be, just by rearranging my Big E to fit the needs of the group.
/Tell Your Players/ not to build their Big E's to overwrite what the group already has and you'll find they fit in alot better and cause problems alot less.
-S
The Eidolon and Summoner are a replacement for any one other person in the party aside from a healer. Their strength is in their versatility.
Should they be able to play the fighter's role? Absolutely yes.
Should they be able to play the rogue's role? Absolutely yes.
The same goes for any other mainly melee combat or mainly skill focused class.
It is working as intended.
The issues you all are having are player based not creature based. If you /have/ heavy melee in your group, or if you /have/ a dedicated skill monkey in your group, then your Big E needs to be designed differently.<a lot of other good stuff>
Agree 100%.
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Agree 100%.The Eidolon and Summoner are a replacement for any one other person in the party aside from a healer. Their strength is in their versatility.
Should they be able to play the fighter's role? Absolutely yes.
Should they be able to play the rogue's role? Absolutely yes.
The same goes for any other mainly melee combat or mainly skill focused class.
It is working as intended.
The issues you all are having are player based not creature based. If you /have/ heavy melee in your group, or if you /have/ a dedicated skill monkey in your group, then your Big E needs to be designed differently.<a lot of other good stuff>
+1
Almost every single CR 20+ monster got DR of at least 10. Meaning tentacles would be slowing the game quiet a bit, without any real productivity in means of damage, cause you end up rolling 1d8 per attack. Also note that if main is +15, secondary is +7 (half str rounded down, i may be wrong), not +10. Also biped got 2 primary attacks with claws.
I was sure that the damage for secondary attacks was always 1 1/2 times the total strength bonus so that is why it would be a +10. I also believe that I didn't include the bonus ability points as those of course could always go into strength as well. However you are correct about the DR thing so ya it would just reduce the attacks to 1d8 unless more bonus ability points were invested.
However, what I mentioned was just the very base build of the combo. You add in the feat improved natural attack then that is 19d10 points of damage in a round, if all attacks hit of course. Still a range of 19 to 190 points of damage is still real nice.
Ya that would slow the game up a bit but if someone using this kind of build rolled once for each attack. Like I said before just have 19d20 in dice and roll them all at once. Usually you can figure out the target number to hit so it is easy to remove those and see how many times you do hit.
One thing that I wish you could use with tentacles is constrict attack but perhaps you would need the reach evo as well to get it. Imagine this four points for four tentacles, Large and huge evolutions, Pull, constrict, and the dump everything else into strength. Then get as many grappling feats as you can.
Then you Eidolon grabs all four limbs of your target with each tentacle and then pulls them apart. I would call that the Draw and Quarter build. I will work that up because now I am curious.
And here is a loop hole to your suggestion - nothing is stopping players from going like thisYou say there's nothing to stop players making a retarded multi-tentacle muchkin monstrosity with all the flavour of a three week old piece of chewing gum?
I'm afraid there is.
It's called a DUNGEON MASTER, my friend.
This is very true. That is why if they don't see my suggestion I will be using my suggestion as a house rule.
A suggestion
For evolutions that allow for stacking evolutions like limbs and tentacles a good rule would be that before you buy an extra pair of limbs or an extra tentacle the player must buy a different evolution first. In this way a player can still have a creature that has a lot of attacks but not as nearly as much as before but also it would balance out the eidolon in other areas and make it more well rounded.
OK, while I can't play test ATM because of holiday schedules I can play around builds.
The Draw a Quarter Build: The Creature would be able to pull the limbs off a creature. Based on a level 20 Eidolon
Base Form
BipedStarting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs).
At level 20 before any other evolutions, but with all ability score increases to strength, the creature would have a base strength of 28 what would give a +9 to damage and attack but with secondary attacks (1 1/2 strength) that would be +6
Now we evolve.
4 evo points for 4 tentacles
1 evo point for pull (tentacles)
1 evo point for reach (tentacles)
2 evo points for Grab
6 evo points for Ability Score increase to strength ( this is the max at level 20 you can do to just one ability score )for a + 6 to strength.
At this point the total strength becomes 34 what would give a +12 to damage and attack but with secondary attacks (1 1/2 strength) that would be +8
3 evo point for Large
Large (Ex): An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large. The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also gives the creature a –1 size penalty to its AC and on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. The eidolon must be Medium to take this evolution. The summoner must be at least 6th level before selecting this evolution.
At this point the total strength becomes 42 what would give a +14 to damage and attack but with secondary attacks (1 1/2 strength) that would be +10 rounded up
4 evo points for Huge
Huge (Ex): An eidolon grows in size, becoming Huge. The eidolon gains a +8 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +3 bonus to its natural armor. It takes a –2 penalty to its Dexterity. This size change also give the creature a –1 size penalty to its AC and attack rolls, a +1 bonus to its CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. The eidolon must possess the Large evolution before selecting this evolution, and the bonuses and penalties stack. The summoner must be at least 11th level before selecting this evolution.
Total strength becomes 50 what would give a +18 to damage and attack but with secondary attacks (1 1/2 strength) that would be +14 rounded up
The tentacle damage would also be 1d8 at the point but take improved natural attack and this becomes a 1d10 I believe.
This leaves us with 5 evo points left.
1 evo point for pounce
2 evo points for energy attack (acid)
1 evo point for Improved damage (tentacle)
1 evo point for magical attacks
So the creature would have two claw attacks that due 1d4+18 to damage and four tentacles that does 1d12+14, plus each attack also do 1d6 points of acid damage each attack and all attacks act as magic weapons and alignment for overcoming DR.
However with such radical strength that could also be enhanced with magic items that increase strength, lets say a at most a +14 to strength this would give the eidolon a 64 Strength. Then hit the eidolon with a enlarge spell. With grappling feats I could easily see this thing tearing limbs off. Still of course your DM would have to allow it but come on how often do you get to draw and quarter enemies in the middle of combat.
OK, while I can't play test ATM because of holiday schedules I can play around builds.Huge pets don't make for great dungeoneering companions.
That aside, your lvl 20 BBEG is going to see this monstrosity approaching from three continents away, and Banish/Gate it out of existence at his first opportunity. :)
Plan B?
Yes,
This is something most 'OMG sky falling too powerful' forget. Your average 20th level fighter can't be taken out by a 3rd level rogue with a Staff of Banishment (Banish and Gate spells inside). And, in a world that includes summons, someone is going to create a Staff of Banishment. Even just using scrolls of banishment. A BBEG that knows about summoners is going to keep a couple of scrolls or a staff around even if he can't cast the spell, and then have a rogue or cleric henchmen cast the spell for him.Ooops, pet went poof. Hard to hide him coming from that far away.
OK, while I can't play test ATM because of holiday schedules I can play around builds.Huge pets don't make for great dungeoneering companions.
That aside, your lvl 20 BBEG is going to see this monstrosity approaching from three continents away, and Banish/Gate it out of existence at his first opportunity. :)
Plan B?
Yes,
This is something most 'OMG sky falling too powerful' forget. Your average 20th level fighter can't be taken out by a 3rd level rogue with a Staff of Banishment (Banish and Gate spells inside). And, in a world that includes summons, someone is going to create a Staff of Banishment. Even just using scrolls of banishment. A BBEG that knows about summoners is going to keep a couple of scrolls or a staff around even if he can't cast the spell, and then have a rogue or cleric henchmen cast the spell for him.Ooops, pet went poof. Hard to hide him coming from that far away.
Ummmmm ya I can see your point, however at this point in time especially if it has happened before to the summoner he would have prepared banishment scrolls or spells himself, which if he doesn't get he should get. My point being is to counter a banishment spell as long as the summoner's spell casting skill allows him to see a banish coming he can counter the spell.
The too big for a dungeon ya I can see that buy you know I hardly ever go down into dungeons so to speak and if the summoner did well there are spells to reduce his size.
As far as hiding a huge creature like that? Umm what about invisibility? That is a rather easy spell to have thrown on a per by a friend.
Keep your eidolon invisible summon some monster to fight first let them waste their banish on that then bring in your eidolon while you summon another creature.
However, this does make life harder for a summoner and does show an obvious weak spot. Personally I do think that it should be that easy to banish an eidolon because of how unique and powerful it's nature is. Also the eidolon is personally tied to the summoner in question, so perhaps there should be a rule that to banish a eidolon gives the eidolon a bonus to save or have an evolution that prevents banishment by any other than the summoner.
I was sure that the damage for secondary attacks was always 1 1/2 times the total strength bonus so that is why it would be a +10.
No. Secondary attacks are always 1/2 Strength bonus, not 3/2 Strength bonus. Even primary attacks are only at normal Strength bonus unless it's the monster's only attack or there are other rules in play.
OK, while I can't play test ATM because of holiday schedules I can play around builds.Huge pets don't make for great dungeoneering companions.
That aside, your lvl 20 BBEG is going to see this monstrosity approaching from three continents away, and Banish/Gate it out of existence at his first opportunity. :)
Plan B?
OK, while I can't play test ATM because of holiday schedules I can play around builds.Huge pets don't make for great dungeoneering companions.
That aside, your lvl 20 BBEG is going to see this monstrosity approaching from three continents away, and Banish/Gate it out of existence at his first opportunity. :)
Plan B?
Yes,
This is something most 'OMG sky falling too powerful' forget. Your average 20th level fighter can't be taken out by a 3rd level rogue with a Staff of Banishment (Banish and Gate spells inside). And, in a world that includes summons, someone is going to create a Staff of Banishment. Even just using scrolls of banishment. A BBEG that knows about summoners is going to keep a couple of scrolls or a staff around even if he can't cast the spell, and then have a rogue or cleric henchmen cast the spell for him.Ooops, pet went poof. Hard to hide him coming from that far away.
While the summoner is not final yet from what is written so far suggests otherwise.
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.
I don't know about you but to me this says that and eidolon can not be dismissed via banish and the only way to get him to go home is to beat him down to the negative.
I don't know about you but to me this says that and eidolon can not be dismissed via banish and the only way to get him to go home is to beat him down to...
You didn't read far enough.
The eidolon
cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of
dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment
work normally.
I don't know about you but to me this says that and eidolon can not be dismissed via banish and the only way to get him to go home is to beat him down to...You didn't read far enough.
The eidolon
cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of
dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment
work normally.
Now you see, it is stuff like this that really ticks me off because both of these passages are in total contradiction to each other.
One says there is only one exception to the rule and then the second passage says but wait there is more.
Not saying you are wrong but still I wish these things were at least consistent in what they say.
Although I still think that the banishment rule for eidolons is pretty lame because since it the summoner would then again have to wait 24 hours not to mention the time it takes to summon the beast. Because then you just have a weak wizard.
I will say this how often does a wizard carry the banishment spell unless he knows before hand that he is going to deal with a summoned creature.
Now you see, it is stuff like this that really ticks me off because both of these passages are in total contradiction to each other.
Incorrect. The first passage is referencing the fact that normal summoned creatures vanish as soon as they reach 0 hit points. This is clear given the context that Eidolons don't vanish until they reach -Con hit points.
Although I still think that the banishment rule for eidolons is pretty lame because since it the summoner would then again have to wait 24 hours
Also incorrect. The 24 hour wait period only applies if the Eidolon is banished due to hit point damage.
Now you see, it is stuff like this that really ticks me off because both of these passages are in total contradiction to each other.Incorrect. The first passage is referencing the fact that normal summoned creatures vanish as soon as they reach 0 hit points. This is clear given the context that Eidolons don't vanish until they reach -Con hit points.
Although I still think that the banishment rule for eidolons is pretty lame because since it the summoner would then again have to wait 24 hoursAlso incorrect. The 24 hour wait period only applies if the Eidolon is banished due to hit point damage.
OK ya I was wrong about the 24 hour thing but still it takes from what I read 1 minute to summon it again. It still gimps the Summoner big time making him a weak wizard with just a limited spell selection. What is the point of playing a summoner all that time, the time it is to get to around level 20, only to have an enemy pull a punk card like that.
The point is that it should be harder to banish than a normal summons because it is not a normal summons. I would suggest perhaps a bonus against that particular or similar spell to reflect this fact. Another option is that the banish only operates differently on a eidolon that perhaps it works a little like the Maze spell where the eidolon is gone for a temporary time period.
As far as the reference thing then I think that sentence should say that a little more clearly.
The point is that it should be harder to banish than a normal summons because it is not a normal summons.
It is. Normal summons are vulnerable to dispel magic as well.