I would be interested in seeing if Paizo has any plans for some digital tools as well. I'm not quite sure what the 4th edition DDI is, but I've seen some posts mentioning how it is a great tool for 4th edition players.
I don't play 4E (did but didn't like it). My entire group (well groups as I am in two groups) prefers Pathfinder. Either way, DDI from what I hear is great as you get tons of content every month, though the downside is you have to pay a monthly subscription fee.
I don't mind buying books when I want/need them, I just don't want to be locked into a monthly subscription. If Paizo ever did do such a thing I doubt I'd subscribe even then.
Paizo is doing some Pathfinder ipod/ iphone apps. Hopefully they will do some computer apps.
I don't think Paizo is doing those things; some third-party company is (with Paizo's approval).
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I would be interested in seeing if Paizo has any plans for some digital tools as well. I'm not quite sure what the 4th edition DDI is, but I've seen some posts mentioning how it Is a great tool for 4th edition players.
WOTC heavily promoted a suite of digital tools to come out at the same time 4th ed launched. DDi its called. When WOTC knew that they could not have them ready on time, instead of making it puplicly known on the main DnD page, they hid the info deep. In there fourms. Lots of new customers went to the DnD site looking for these great tool that had full page ads in the back of the new core books.
Lots of new customers asked where these tools were on the fourms. Despite this, it was 2 months before there was ant offical word from WOTC on these tools. WOTC said they had to put out only one tool at a time. It has been a year and a half since 4th came out and WOTC still only has one of the four promised tools out.
CEO
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We are very much looking at various ways to get digital tools created for the Pathfinder customer base. It will more than likely be through various 3rd party developers, but if we find something that we think our crack team of online programmers can handle, then we will have them work on that. But, yeah, we are totally looking at digital tools as a very important part of the future. We just don't want to talk about anything until our ducks are all in a row.
-Lisa
PS: Where do all these darn ducks come from?
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CapeCodRPGer - thanks for the quick history of the DDi stuff! I still think there seems to be a lot of 4th edition players that really like it, even if it is a lot less of a product as WotC intended.
Lisa - I'm excited to hear Paizo is considering digital tools as an important part of the future. Personally I love Pathfinder as is, but it's always good to keep an eye on future posibilities.
So I heard that a majority of the people that coded the 4e Character Builder are no longer employed by WotC. None of them were involved with the original outsourcing that didn't produce the VTT et al, and what they produced was done rather well and on a limited time table. Just a thought in the event that they didn't sign non-compete contracts when they were there.
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Sounds par for course. Finding Pathfiner was a godsend for me. I have been playing since the days of the sacred Red Box. I've been through the original rules, 2e/AD&D, 3e/3.5. Yes, I've looked over 4e, I've talked to the guys that run the local game shop, and a few who have played 4e. Looking over everything that I have, I'm not impressed. This may come across as snarky, but the first strike for me was the, well...calcification, as it were, of the Tiefling race. In 3e, there was variety, the appearance of the infernal taint on the bloodline could be as subtle or as overt as the player and DM wanted it to be. Now, 4e makes them all baby demons, they all supposedly look alike, yadda yadda yadda.
Meh, cosmetic point perhaps, but its still a point. My girl friend loves playing Tieflings and she about screamed when she read the new description of what they are supposed to look like. Beyond that, the system itself just didn't spark my imagination. Too much like a full on conversion of a computer mmo to a pen and paper rpg. Not for me. I'll leave my mmos on the computer and my true role play around the gaming table. Healing surges and at will abilities for everyone...power cards to track it all with, phah...Clerics and potions are for healing. Fighters are for fighting. Wizards are for nuking and so on. The more I look at 4e, the more I realize that it is becoming nothing more than a cash cow for the unholy duo of WotC and Hasbro. I know they have brought in a fairly large new fan base. Shades, I even saw the 4e starter box at Toys R Us! Ten to one odds, the moment DnD stops being profitable...it gets the axe. Especially now that they have Pathfinder to contend with. I enjoyed the 3.x rule set before. I enjoy it even more now that Paizo has worked their magic on it.
Subscriptions? Well, I've seen that Paizo does offer a couple. And you better believe that once I am able to I will be signing up to get maps and modules in my mailbox every other month. Digital tools, character managers? Love to see them, but for the love of critical hits, don't forget us Crackberry users...iPhone/iPod isn't the only game in town....lol.
In close, I began the new year with a new game: Pathfinder. After much careful consideration, I finally picked up my Core Rulebook on New Year's Day this year. I eagerly look forward to what the future brings from Paizo and their teams working on the Pathfinder line. In the meantime, I will say a quiet prayer for the glory that once was Dungeons & Dragons...
Ive been doing a lot of online gaming using a resource from rptools.net, its pretty cool, and has worked very well for an online gametable for me and my friends. And best of all its free
Me too. I'd hate to think Paizo would stoop to something as evil as a monthly subscription...
Heh... ok I get it. No, what I mean is a monthly subscription to electronic content that stops being yours when you stop paying. A subscription to print content that you get to keep forever is all good. Now if the DDI works differently, and you can download all of the content forever, then forgive me, as I was under the impression you have to stop using it/you lose all of the product as soon as you stop paying. With books you get to keep them forever and you can stop anytime. One is a subscription model to content you keep forever, one is a monthly rental fee for gaming materials. Stop paying the rent and you lose all your books. I dunno, seems kinda crappy to me. Again, if that's not how DDI works then I take it all back lol
Stop paying the rent and you lose all your books. I dunno, seems kinda crappy to me. Again, if that's not how DDI works then I take it all back lol
Yes and no John. Not in the interest of defending 4E per se, but just to give you a definite and definitive answer, I'll explain. I'm a subscriber.
The Character and Adventure Builder tools get updated monthly with all the new products. Once your subscription stops, those programs continue to function just fine. They just don't receive any more updates.
The magazines can always be downloaded into PDFs from the moment the content is available. If you're disciplined to download and save the content, those are yours to keep too. Again, it would be your responsibility to discipline yourself to save the content to a drive or something. So long as your subscription is active you can view all the old content. I do think you'd be cut off from viewing old content once your subscription runs out, but again, its not as if you couldn't save them up until that point.
You definitely lose access to the Compendium.
Yes and no John. Not in the interest of defending 4E per se, but just to give you a definite and definitive answer, I'll explain. I'm a subscriber.
The Character and Adventure Builder tools get updated monthly with all the new products. Once your subscription stops, those programs continue to function just fine. They just don't receive any more updates.
The magazines can always be downloaded into PDFs from the moment the content is available. If you're disciplined to download and save the content, those are yours to keep too. Again, it would be your responsibility to discipline yourself to save the content to a drive or something. So long as your subscription is active you can view all the old content. I do think you'd be cut off from viewing old content once your subscription runs out, but again, its not as if you couldn't save them up until that point.
You definitely lose access to the Compendium.
Ok, so it's sort of like I assumed, though somewhat better than I had thought. You still have to go through the trouble of downloading everything and then figuring out how to print the stuff etc, whereas with Paizo, you get pretty, high-quality, printed books shipped to your door and they never come take your old stuff away. What you paid for remains yours. I do see though that from what you describe the DDI is slightly less annoying than I had thought, though still not enough for me to justify a monthly expense.
To be honest though, that may have more to do with who would be getting my money. Perhaps if Paizo were to do the exact same thing I might be a giant hypocrite and then suddenly think it was the greatest idea ever lol. I guess the quality of the people who I choose to send money to has a lot to do with how happy I am in sending it.
To be honest though, that may have more to do with who would be getting my money. Perhaps if Paizo were to do the exact same thing I might be a giant hypocrite and then suddenly think it was the greatest idea ever lol. I guess the quality of the people who I choose to send money to has a lot to do with how happy I am in sending it.
I hear ya. I definitely favor Paizo, not only by being a regular subscriber to multiple product lines- but also word of mouth.
This is a brief aside: If somebody wants to support a game, one of the best ways is to just run it and play it. Simple as that. I'm 2/3rds through running Runelords for a second time. My players and former players have bought Core Books, Bestiaries, back issues of APs, and subscribed to the APs themselves. And they tell everybody they know about what is their favorite fantasy RPG is, and so on and so on.. I've definitely sold a lot of Pathfinder through product representation.
During my time time here I've talked to Editors. Got advice. Got an e-mail from Lisa once (very nice).
I aint never talked to a WOTC person in my life. Unless you count Nick Logue when he freelanced. I read columns and articles written by them, but I don't recall them ever posting on their own forums. ::shrug:: I won't know them if you showed me a picture.
Anyway.. I got the DDI subscription when it first came out, and I paid for a whole year in advance at a reduced price. Then they came out with a new pricing structure with an option to buy a second year before the price went up. So I did. So I've gotten two years at a much cheaper price than new folks would get it. Something like 5 bucks a month. I don't consider it a bad deal. However, I'm explaining this so you can have the context. I don't pay a lot for it, and I don't pay monthly. That makes a huge difference. So I'm more of an exception to the rule. I don't blame you for not being all that interested in being a monthly subscriber to DDI.
With DDI, I can get by without the splat books. Which I have not bought. Its not as easy as having a book, but the content is all still there. Which is a good thing.. because I've played 4E about twice in that last 6 months.
I've played Pathfinder about 18 to 20 times in the last 6 months. To me, that says everything.
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We are very much looking at various ways to get digital tools created for the Pathfinder customer base. It will more than likely be through various 3rd party developers, but if we find something that we think our crack team of online programmers can handle, then we will have them work on that.
One feature that would leapfrog's WotC excellent DDI would be the ability for 3PPs to input their Open Content into such a tool. Conspiracy theorists have darkly implied gamers are even less inclined to buy non-WotC products due to the DDI's sheer ease of use:
DM: "Hey, y'all. I got the latest class book from Goodman Games. Anyone wanna check it out?"
D&D Player: "Are there any in the DDI?"
DM: "Un, no, a-hole. It's from Goodman Games. Wizards doesn't let anyone else put their stuff in the database."
D&D Player: "Then how will I make my character?"
DM: "You'll have to write it --"
D&D Player: "Screw that. I'm gonna print me a new dragonborn cleric!"
PS: Where do all these darn ducks come from?
Runequest, of course ^_^
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One thing the really got me with WOTC and DDI was the pretty much total lack of commucation from them about it. Even after 2 months and WOTC said they would keep the customers up to date about what was going on, the person from WOTC that said he was the go to guy for DDI and would be keeping the public up to date with DDi did not post anything after that post. Great customer service there, WOTC.
I understand software takes time to make. I also understand that delays happen with software. What I hope Paizo does is the total oppisite of what WOTC has done with software.
1. Keep the plan of what tools come out when, don't change mid stride.
When DDi was introduced, WOTC said there would be four main tools for it. WOTC has put out only one of the four promised tools, and a couple of other minor tools that were not orginally planned. WOTC has not said anything about the other three tools they promised.
2. Keep the public up to date with the development of the software.
Even if you you have nothing new to report, I think it would go far with the customers if Paizo said: "The company is still hard at work on this tool or that tool, but nothing new to tell you." This at least tells us something. What really got me me with how WOTC is handling DDi is the total lack of commucation on the relase of the other tools. Even when asked directly about them, WOTC is silent on the subject. But they still want you to subscribe to an incomplete product.
This is not a critizism of Paizo. This is just a few ideas I think would help once Paizo starts to make and announce the computer tools for Pathfinder.
I'd even buy a pathfinder crpg
This would be considerably outside Paizo's budget as a first-party title, and the chances of any established company picking it up are slim to none.
That said, one of my (many times many) pet projects is a proof-of-concept for Burnt Offerings as a PC game.
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I aint never talked to a WOTC person in my life. Unless you count Nick Logue when he freelanced. I read columns and articles written by them, but I don't recall them ever posting on their own forums. ::shrug:: I won't know them if you showed me a picture.
to be fair, I've seen Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson posting at these very forums (going in the lion's den so to speak) and I remember James Wyatt taking a lot of time to answer the people's questions regarding the 4E Eberron setting. I remember Scott Rouse's and Linnae Foster's splendid work over at ENWorld. And at least some of the WotC people have their own blogs where you can contact them quite easily. They are fine people in my book and I guess that if they're not as active on the WotC boards as the Paizo people are here that this is due to in-house policies combined with heavy workload and not because they don't respect their customers.
Paizo has set a high standard regarding customer relationship,though, and it's really good to see that they can apparently be successful with their model.
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WOTC IMO is doing a very poor job of commucation when it comes to the digital tools. Many people have posted on the WOTC fourms if we could get some kind of word on when/ what the next tool will be for DDi. WOTC has said nothing about it for 6 months. A bad sign. When you are totally ignoring customers questions its never good. I think the last time WOTC said anything was when they put out the monster builder. That was six months ago I belive. Its still in beta. All it is is the character builder but with monsters. WOTC has not said anything offical on the other three main tools that were suposted to be out for DDi at launch in awhile.
To my knowledge, there are four character management tools that actively support the official Pathfinder RPG material. I've listed each below, along with a few basic details of each. This is a quick overview and I'm sure there are critical points I've overlooked below, so *please* check the websites for each tool for complete details. You can take each for a free test drive, so compare them for yourself and pick the one that suits your needs best. Each has its unique advantages and disadvantages.
Hero Lab - www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab
Cost: $29.99
Platforms: Windows (works under Fusion/Parallels on Mac)
Other key details: Native code offers high performance but limits use to Windows; integrated Editor allows adding custom user content; customizable to accommodate most house rules; extensive in-play support for laptop use during games; Tactical Console for GMs running games; Bestiary data due out in January; Mac/Linux operation is being actively developed
PCGen - pcgen.sourceforge.net
Cost: Free
Platforms: Windows/Mac/Linux
Other key details: Java-based, text-based files enable adding custom user content, customizable to accommodate most house rules; GMGen plug-in provides extensive in-play support for laptops during games
TheOnlySheet - theonlysheet.com
Cost: $19.99
Platforms: Windows
Other key details: Requires Microsoft Excel (Windows only), fully customizable with knowledge of Excel, in-play support through character sheet-based interface
HeroForge - www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/
Cost: Free
Platforms: Windows (possibly Mac/Linux)
Other key details: Requires Microsoft Excel, fully customizable with knowledge of Excel
WOTC IMO is doing a very poor job of commucation when it comes to the digital tools. Many people have posted on the WOTC fourms if we could get some kind of word on when/ what the next tool will be for DDi. WOTC has said nothing about it for 6 months. A bad sign.
WotC contracted the bulk of the development of D&DI out to a third party company. They spent *many millions* of dollars and ended up with only the CB as a viable tool. Just over a year ago, the senior leadership at the helm for all things digital at WotC were laid off (VP and directors). The aftermath has left WotC with a massive sunk investment and little to show for it. Since then, key individuals like The Rouse have departed as well.
In terms of the digital initiative, WotC's original vision has been wholly abandoned. Most likely, the top execs have put a stop to major financial investment in the digital realm until a viable plan emerges. Such a plan would need to promise successful monetization of any significant new development effort. WotC's track record in this area is abysmal and it's likely the top execs are highly skeptical of any proposals. A long history of over-promising and under-delivering does not lead to confidence - in customers nor top management.
My *guess* is that one of two things is happening. First, it's possible that all major development has been cut off and D&DI is simply in maintenance mode. Given all the past promises and hype, it may be best to keep quiet instead of telling still-hopeful customers there's nothing significant on the horizon. On the flip-side, it's also possible that they've learned their lesson and are simply not saying anything until the new material is nearly ready for release. That way, everyone is happily surprised because there are no expectations. Personally, using the recent departure of The Rouse as a bellwether, I'm guessing the former is more likely, but there's no way to know until we actually see what comes.
Just my couple of pennies....
to be fair, I've seen Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson posting at these very forums (going in the lion's den so to speak) and I remember James Wyatt taking a lot of time to answer the people's questions regarding the 4E Eberron setting. I remember Scott Rouse's and Linnae Foster's splendid work over at ENWorld. And at least some of the WotC people have their own blogs where you can contact them quite easily. They are fine people in my book and I guess that if they're not as active on the WotC boards as the Paizo people are here that this is due to in-house policies combined with heavy workload and not because they don't respect their customers.
Paizo has set a high standard regarding customer relationship,though, and it's really good to see that they can apparently be successful with their model.
I do recall Rodney posting over here, that's true. I must have missed Mearls and Wyatt.
However, in the 3 to 4 months I hung around WOTC's board, I never saw them posting on their own boards. Again, I could have just missed them. Moreover, that was actually the point I was trying to make; I was not criticizing WOTC developers for not posting over here at the Paizo boards (that would be absurd), I was criticizing them for not posting on their own boards.
Scott Rouse was an exception too. I frequently saw him post over at EnWorld. Not so much his own board, but yeah.. he had an EnWorld presence for awhile.
You make a good point about in-house policies. As a publicly traded company they do have to be more circumspect. That doesn't change the fact that as a consumer I prefer more communication from the writers and editors.
Wormy, I get the sense that you think I was trolling, and that really wasn't my intent. I don't hate WOTC and vow never to spend money on them (though I haven't in several months). I played some 4E just this last Sunday. However, at the end of the day, one of the things I like about Pathfinder is the interaction of the developers directly with the customers. I find WOTC developers far removed from the customers in comparision. You point out that it might not be their fault, which is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that I like Paizo's approach better.
Finally, I can say that not meaning to denigrate WOTC, but to reinforce to Paizo that they're doing something positive in maintaining customer relationships. I can't honestly say I'm personal friends with James Jacobs or SKR, but I have exchanged words to them about the products, shared a joke in a chatroom, and am able identify with them as real people. That makes buying something from them a more positive experience.