I am soon to start a campaign centered around Drow, with some different starting races. I will be using pretty much the same classes, but I have a problem. I am restricting alignments to any nongood, and one of the members of my group always plays a paladin. In fact, it is all that he is good at. My question is this: Does anyone have any idea what to do for an Evil (Lawful or Chaotic, but preferably chaotic) Paladin?
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I'm currently playing in a campaign where the DM allowed one of the other players to play a Paladin of Asmodeus. As I understand it, the basically switched out all of their good abilities (smite evil, aura of good, etc...) and changed them to lawful (smite chaos, aura of law etc...) It turned out being similar to the hellknight prestige class that was later released, and seemed to work well in his campaign. You might want to look into doing something similar.
I'm currently playing in a campaign where the DM allowed one of the other players to play a Paladin of Asmodeus. As I understand it, the basically switched out all of their good abilities (smite evil, aura of good, etc...) and changed them to lawful (smite chaos, aura of law etc...) It turned out being similar to the hellknight prestige class that was later released, and seemed to work well in his campaign. You might want to look into doing something similar.
That sounds like a good idea. Any idea what to do about Chaotic Evil Paladins?
I am not sure about Pathfinder, but I know that drow used to worship Lolth and other demons, so I was kind of hoping for something in that vein.
Was a dragon issue with alt paladins in it, had LE.NE and CE versions. Drow on Golairon worship Demon lords, not all the same one, so you don't just get the spider theme over and over. Anyhow I'll see if I can round up that mag, was in the early 300's I think
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Also, 4-winds fantasy gaming has a 20-level base class Anti-Paladin in their book Paths of Power.
It is a Chaotic Evil divine caster/warrior hybrid. They get a smite vs. good, 4 levels of spells, channel negative energy, a fiendish servant, access to a single domain of their diety's, and some other stuff. All in all, not a bad adaptation, IMHO.
There is no Lolth equivilent in Golarian, the drow worship demons. So Asmodeus would work well. The easiest way, since your players will all be non-good, would be to just rewrite the Paladin replacing all 'good' powers with 'evil' ones. And the player will already know everything he needs to know.
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I am soon to start a campaign centered around Drow, with some different starting races. I will be using pretty much the same classes, but I have a problem. I am restricting alignments to any nongood, and one of the members of my group always plays a paladin. In fact, it is all that he is good at. My question is this: Does anyone have any idea what to do for an Evil (Lawful or Chaotic, but preferably chaotic) Paladin?
I wouldn't switch all the paladin powers over to evil. A paladin is balanced out partly because the code of conduct. It is much more difficult to follow the path of good than evil. Hence the power of the paladin.
It's been a long time since I've checked the power levels between balors and pit fiends vs. the good versions of them (planetar and another?). I'm fairly sure the fiends are less powerful.
I suppose a blackguard from DMG makes a good starting point. Trim the difficult pre-reqs, and that's workable. The other thing is to let him earn the Dread Fang of Lolth prestige class. It's a solid class that's fun to play (first hand experience). Or if you don't mind gender bending, just have the player play a high priestess (cleric), and add a few custom powers.
I think the best idea is to talk to the guy and see if there is something else that works, as opposed to making and trying to balance out a non-PF class.
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BYC makes a good point about the Code of Conduct, making sure to institute a set code behavior or morals(even evil chaotic ones) would be an interesting thing to come up with.
Class Options: Volume 2—Paladins Prevail! is available on the Paizo store and has a few fun twists on Paladins, and is PFRPG compatible. It has several replacement powers for different levels, and while picking and choosing could be a bit of a chore, it does have several alternatives to the strictly good aligned powers.
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Unearthed actually code of conducted Chaotic Evil paladins; in general they would never work well for a campaign (don't work well in groups). With that said I don't think turning all "good" to "evil" is enough. I think you generally adapt over much of the blackguard. For instance, replace mount/weapon bonus with a sneak attack progression at 5th and every 3 levels, give some aura that can make opponents shaken/have bad luck (a la hexblade-type) instead of lay on hands, etc. Would make it more interesting.
But I don't think "Code of Conduct" is there for anything more than flavor; they didn't make paladins more or less powerful for it (in fact, most consider fighters better, though I generally disagree).
I've long been of the opinion (ever since reading The Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon) that Paladins should be open to any alignment. However, alternate-alignment Paladins should be more than just the PHB Paladin with "smite evil" changed to "smite <other alignment>". Every Paladin should have its own uniqueness. One of my (many times many) pet projects is an any-alignment Paladin class which allows the Paladin to take powers from lists based on the deity they follow (sort of a martial Oracle, actually).
For example, a Paladin of the Deity of Magic might get detect magic (and later arcane sight) at-will, be able to dispel magic with a touch or an attack, gain increasing spell resistance, provide an aura of protection against spells, etc. Meanwhile a Paladin of the Deity of Death might get deathwatch at-will, be able to channel negative energy as a Cleric, have an aura of unease, and be able to animate (or prevent the animation of) undead.
An evil paladin is generally called an anti-paladin and, even though you obviously need it a lot sooner, the Advanced Player's Guide will include an anti-paladin class as well as other variant paladins. So while you may need to convert some old 3rd ed class or use a 3pp class for now, you will eventually have an official Paizo version available in August.
An evil paladin is generally called an anti-paladin and, even though you obviously need it a lot sooner, the Advanced Player's Guide will include an anti-paladin class as well as other variant paladins. So while you may need to convert some old 3rd ed class or use a 3pp class for now, you will eventually have an official Paizo version available in August.
You just made all of my hopes and dreams come true
:)
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I honestly don't see a huge problem with changing all good stuff to evil and being on your way. Paladins are finally pretty awesome and as someone else has said, I don't think the code of conduct or the alignment restriction is there for anything but flavor and because "it's always been that way".
Just my way of thinking.
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What IS a paladin?
In the real world and as the original source the paladin represents a perfect ideal of the chivalrous Christian God fearing Knight. Hence this tie in of martial as well as spiritual strength.
Originally way back in 1st and AD&D editions a Paladin was rewarded with his greater than Fighter level prowess due to his unwavering faith in his god, his dedication to the goals and ideals of chivalry, and his humility and humanity.
Remember a Paladin was a Fighter with ALL the fighters abilities and advantages but with Holy abilities as well.
This was balanced by the restrictions of wealth, items, armor and weapons he was allowed to possess and the absolute (and immediately punishable if strayed) adherence to Lawful Good.
All of the above was a method to try and qualify the chivalrous Christian God fearing Knight of Olde into the original games.
In later editions the restrictions were removed (save the LG requirement)and the combat capabilities were toned down little by little until you get the current PFRPG version. Chivalry, humility, piousness and poverty have all become role-playing choices if followed at all.
But the one element that remains is that the paladin exists to promote justice and fairness to all and hence alignment must be Lawful Good.
So going back to the question that the OP proposed:
"one of the members of my group always plays a paladin. In fact, it is all that he is good at. My question is this: Does anyone have any idea what to do for an Evil (Lawful or Chaotic, but preferably chaotic) Paladin?"
Does your Paladin player promote the Role playing aspects of the class or does he just use the powers and abilities efficiently?
If the former then he will have to learn to play something different in this evil campaign - no evil alignment will allow him to do the heroic things he is used to (rescues, slaying vile monsters, protecting the innocent, all in a non self serving way). He could do rescues, slay good monsters and protect his interests all for a suitable reward of course, but then he is more a mercenary than a hero.
If he uses the class abilities efficiently then it really doesn't matter what the 'paladin' abilities are - he just uses the synergy of these abilities to their fullest.
In this case you need to look at what gods you have in place and which if any would be likely served by a 'paladin'.
Remember that a Paladin is meant to be the ideal so if you have evil paladins they are meant to show by example what the aims and goals of their faith are, and so as mentioned before, don't just swap the word evil with good.
Rather tailor the class with abilities that will reflect or aid in demonstrating the goals of the god. Your Paladin player may be perfectly fine to play within the constraints of the evil religion once you have outlined the requirements and rewards.
Now saying all of that, personally I feel removing the old school restrictions of the Paladin class was a step backwards, as to me the very source of power of the Paladin was his faith and dedication to his cause. Material wealth was irrelevant except that which was required to aid him or her in their mission. Further removing Alignment or allowing an evil version takes away from the heroic aspect of the class.
Are the Demon Lords and the Archdevils the same in Golarion as in 3.5? Like Demogorgon, Orcus, etc for demons and Mephistopheles, Dispater, etc for devils.