Ravingdork |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The advanced monster template from the bestiary says to add 4 points to all ability scores.
Was it really the intent of the game designers to give animals and similarly non-sentient creatures 5 or 6 Intelligence with this template? Among other things, this means that the creature in question is sentient and can now understand a language.
A formerly brutish giant with this template can suddenly be quite intelligent. Something just seems off about that to me.
mdt |
The advanced monster template from the bestiary says to add 4 points to all ability scores.
Was it really the intent of the game designers to give animals and similarly non-sentient creatures 5 or 6 Intelligence with this template? Among other things, this means that the creature in question is sentient and can now understand a language.
A formerly brutish giant with this template can suddenly be quite intelligent. Something just seems off about that to me.
Then don't use that template. There are other templates you can use, or, alternately, you can make up a different template :
Brute
Quick : Add 3 hps per hit dice, increase all damage by +3, and increase AC by 3 as well.
Rebuild : Increase all physical stats by 6, recalculate HP's, AC, and damage for all attacks.
EDIT: +1 CR obviously.
mdt |
Unofficial word is no, you don't up an animal's Int with this template, because that would change it's creature type from animal to magical beast, but it's not explicitly spelled out anywhere. Dumb giants getting smarter, however, still works.
Actually, official word, per RAW, is yes, you do. The template doesn't state you don't, and under templates in general, it does say that a template may change the creature's type.
An unofficial house rule would be, no, you don't, but that's house rule, not RAW, unless there's an entry in a FAQ about it. Personally, I'd suggest an FAQ entry something like below :
When applying the Advanced template to animals, either do not apply the +4 to the animal's INT, or, increase the animal's INT and change it's subtype to Magical Beast.
mdt |
No FAQ response, no erratta entry... yet. That's why I said "unofficial" word. That word was from Mr James Jacobs, IIRC, so I do not consider it "house ruling", just "pre-erratta erratta".
Ah,
Ok. That would be an unofficial word then. Sorry, didn't realize you were quoting JJ. I would still personally allow a +4 to the animal and change it's type. Fantasy trope is full of animals who are 'bigger, faster, stronger' and also 'smarter', even smart enough to talk, leading packs of normal animals. Especially in Asian mythology, but also in European as well.Abraham spalding |
Got a quote or thread for that Twowlves? Not that I doubt you, I want to see his thinking on the issue in context, for the additional information that such can provide.
Personally I think it absurd that an advance creature wouldn't be more intelligent or that animals are primarily defined by a lack of intelligence.
The thought that an advance brute wouldn't be more intelligent and therefore better able to use his abilities seems... dishonest to me as well. Bigger and better (advanced!) means mentally too.
caribet |
I hit this recently too - triggered by the Bestiary entry for "Horse".
Horse as listed is explained as being a "Light Horse", and the Bestiary explicitly states that you can stat a Heavy Horse by adding the Advanced Simple Template.
If Heavy Horses all had Int 6, I think the world would have noticed by now!
Remco Sommeling |
I guess it is DM's call, sometimes it might be appropriate to increase int other times it might not, the mental stats do not come into play often.
If I want a brutish bear I might just remove the int, wis and cha bonus from and give it 10'extra movement and the ability to rage as per the spell, maybe even add in ferocity as well.
Alexander Kilcoyne |
I thought it was so obvious that for an animal you should raise everything except intelligence that it wouldn't need errata ;)
I really like the advanced template. But it's just a quick and dirty way to beef up an encounter; most of the times I use it the bonus to Int becomes fairly redundant, unless I throw class levels into the mix.
LazarX |
Ravingdork wrote:The advanced monster template from the bestiary says to add 4 points to all ability scores.
Was it really the intent of the game designers to give animals and similarly non-sentient creatures 5 or 6 Intelligence with this template? Among other things, this means that the creature in question is sentient and can now understand a language.
A formerly brutish giant with this template can suddenly be quite intelligent. Something just seems off about that to me.
Then don't use that template. There are other templates you can use, or, alternately, you can make up a different template :
Or you can use parts of it and not others, the templates are shortcuts, not chains. At least on the DM side of things.
Archaeik |
A player wants to create a character with this template... RAW allows it?
Templates aren't mentioned expressly, but they are part of the monster rules, and as such, should be covered here. In short, it's not intended for PCs to augment their builds with templates, but if you're allowing it, all players should have the opportunity to do the same.
Afterwards, you take the increased party CR into account when designing appropriate encounters.
Let me reiterate, a single player should not be allowed to template unless all players are allowed.*
*This does not necessarily apply to story development in game, but ignoring it can over-advantage the lucky player, leading to dissatisfaction.
gustavo iglesias |
I hit this recently too - triggered by the Bestiary entry for "Horse".
Horse as listed is explained as being a "Light Horse", and the Bestiary explicitly states that you can stat a Heavy Horse by adding the Advanced Simple Template.
If Heavy Horses all had Int 6, I think the world would have noticed by now!
Int beliw 2 doesnt advance
Kalindlara Contributor |
caribet wrote:I hit this recently too - triggered by the Bestiary entry for "Horse".
Horse as listed is explained as being a "Light Horse", and the Bestiary explicitly states that you can stat a Heavy Horse by adding the Advanced Simple Template.
If Heavy Horses all had Int 6, I think the world would have noticed by now!
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/advanced-creatu re-cr-1
Int beliw 2 doesnt advance
Not a rules source, unfortunately. ^_^
The Bestiary 4 doesn't have that text.
gustavo iglesias |
gustavo iglesias wrote:caribet wrote:I hit this recently too - triggered by the Bestiary entry for "Horse".
Horse as listed is explained as being a "Light Horse", and the Bestiary explicitly states that you can stat a Heavy Horse by adding the Advanced Simple Template.
If Heavy Horses all had Int 6, I think the world would have noticed by now!
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/advanced-creatu re-cr-1
Int beliw 2 doesnt advance
Not a rules source, unfortunately. ^_^
The Bestiary 4 doesn't have that text.
The creatures that paizo has advanced un their adventure path follow that rule:
Kalindlara Contributor |
Kalindlara Contributor |
Kalindlara wrote:They do a lot of things. Undead Barbarian comes to mind. ^_^In the monster codex there's an additional rule for undead barbarians.
It's in a gray area as a "rule", although I would argue for it being the default as well. Technically, it's a specific vampire's ability.
That's why I listed it as my other example, though. ^_^
Entryhazard |
It's in a gray area as a "rule", although I would argue for it being the default as well. Technically, it's a specific vampire's ability.
That's why I listed it as my other example, though. ^_^
The wording of the ability suggests a general purpose.
Otherwise would be a huge defeat for a book about general options for monsters with class levels statting one with a unique ability.
Kalindlara Contributor |
Kalindlara wrote:It's in a gray area as a "rule", although I would argue for it being the default as well. Technically, it's a specific vampire's ability.
That's why I listed it as my other example, though. ^_^
The wording of the ability suggests a general purpose.
Otherwise would be a huge defeat for a book about general options for monsters with class levels statting one with a unique ability.
Again, totally agree. I would even argue that its inclusion in that format and context is a general rule.
But the silly thing is still a little gray. ^_^
Archaeik |
I was under the impression that the "Monsters as PCs" rules simply didn't allow templates, by omission.
I won't suggest it can't be interpreted this way, however, the rule mentions CR as the governing factor.
Unless you interpret the part about "not advancing through racial hit dice" as somehow also excluding templates under a broad umbrella of "advancement", it does not actually exclude them.
Further, since it talks about picking creatures from the bestiary, ostensibly this includes templated variants.
Whether or not this means you should be able to capriciously apply templates to any entry is unclear, but since we're already talking about an area of the rules dependent on GM fiat, I expect that it's completely intentional that the minutia is also left to the GM.
My only concern with templates is their tendency to do geometric (rather than linear) things when combined.
tl;dr
Monsters as PCs is better thought of as "guidelines" instead of "rules"