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I was inspired to make some Dire Hyena riding Cavalier Gnolls to throw at the party in my ongoing campaign. Well I realized that with the new rules I would not be able to use actual Dire Hyenas, but I vaguely remembered that Wolf animal Companions could gain size large at a later level. So I cracked open my Bestiary figuring that Hyenas would likely get the same thing. Instead I see that Hyenas start at small and gain size medium. I thought well that sucks. Then I started to take a closer look to see why the Hyenas get this difference. What I found was this, while the
Wolf and Hyena Stats in the Bestiary were damn near identical, and the base wolf Animal Companion stats were almost identical, the base hyena was cut back a bit, and the Hyena enhancement at later level is significantly weaker than the Wolf enhancement.
As a solution for myself, my Gnolls will be riding Hyenas with Wolf stats, but I just want to understand the logic behind this.
Its the same with Dogs, and its really annoying not to be able to ride my animal companion until lvl 7 as a small ranger.
Its the same with Dogs, and its really annoying not to be able to ride my animal companion until lvl 7 as a small ranger.
Take Boon Companion as your 3rd level feat. It basically adds 4 to you effective druid level. It will sit unused for a level but you'll be riding your animal companion at 4th level.
Now some GMs may argue that "Prerequisite: Animal companion or familiar class ability" means you have to have reached 4th level. Others would let you take it at 3rd level as it is a ranger class ability and sit unused for a level. You can always wait untill 5th level to take it and use it right away.
-Swiftbrook
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Its the same with Dogs, and its really annoying not to be able to ride my animal companion until lvl 7 as a small ranger.Take Boon Companion as your 3rd level feat. It basically adds 4 to you effective druid level. It will sit unused for a level but you'll be riding your animal companion at 4th level.
Now some GMs may argue that "Prerequisite: Animal companion or familiar class ability" means you have to have reached 4th level. Others would let you take it at 3rd level as it is a ranger class ability and sit unused for a level. You can always wait untill 5th level to take it and use it right away.
-Swiftbrook
Would you mind letting us know where Boon Companion comes from? It's not in the Pathfinder Core book ... I'm assuming it comes from a 3.5 "splat book"?
Thanks!
I'm not sure about Boon Companion, but Natural Bond is a feat that adds 3 to effective druid level (max equal to character level) for Animal Companion, and appears in Complete Adventurer.
Would you mind letting us know where Boon Companion comes from? It's not in the Pathfinder Core book ... I'm assuming it comes from a 3.5 "splat book"?
It comes from a Pathfinder splat book (the Pathfinder Society one, maybe?).
Its the same with Dogs, and its really annoying not to be able to ride my animal companion until lvl 7 as a small ranger.Take Boon Companion as your 3rd level feat. It basically adds 4 to you effective druid level. It will sit unused for a level but you'll be riding your animal companion at 4th level.
Now some GMs may argue that "Prerequisite: Animal companion or familiar class ability" means you have to have reached 4th level. Others would let you take it at 3rd level as it is a ranger class ability and sit unused for a level. You can always wait untill 5th level to take it and use it right away.
-Swiftbrook
Not completely true.
Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.
So at level 3 ... it gets no bonus ... since you're level 3 ;)
It's mostly a feat you want when you multiclass, so the animal companion levels 4 more levels after you take another class.
Pprobably to a Pathfinder Prestige Class, since the book is a book about the Pathfinder Chroniclers ;)
-TDL
Not completely true.
Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.So at level 3 ... it gets no bonus ... since you're level 3 ;)
It's mostly a feat you want when you multiclass, so the animal companion levels 4 more levels after you take another class.
Pprobably to a Pathfinder Prestige Class, since the book is a book about the Pathfinder Chroniclers ;)-TDL
I did say that the feat would sit unused until 4th level. At 4th level, you have an effective druid level of 4 and can get a medium sized dog.
It's mostly a feat you want when you multiclass, so the animal companion levels 4 more levels after you take another class.
Pprobably to a Pathfinder Prestige Class, since the book is a book about the Pathfinder Chroniclers ;)-TDL
It's also a great feat for Rangers. It eliminates the -3 when calculating your effective druid level.
-Swiftbrook
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I, for one, would also like to know why hyenas got gipped. One of my character concepts for an upcoming LoF game is a druid with an hyena companion. If I played a gnome or halfling, I couldn't ride it until 4th level.
Boon Companion doesn't help this. (and doesn't address the original issue)
It wouldn't make sense for a wolf in a desert, so I'm not considering a wolf as an option, since I want to be native to the area.
Why are Hyenas inferior to Wolves? They are just as vicious in the wild, albeit they are usually carrion eaters, unlike wolves who actually hunt their prey.
I have another thread about how dogs are weaksauce, too.
My suggestion is to houserule some interesting additions. In the dog's case, I suggested a bonus to handle animal checks.
For hyenas, a possibility is a scent tracking bonus. I don't know hyenas that well, but most carrion eaters have a great sense of smell so they can find carrion over long distances.
Not completely true.
Boon Companion
Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class ability.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.So at level 3 ... it gets no bonus ... since you're level 3 ;)
It's mostly a feat you want when you multiclass, so the animal companion levels 4 more levels after you take another class.
Pprobably to a Pathfinder Prestige Class, since the book is a book about the Pathfinder Chroniclers ;)-TDL
It's mostly a feat you want when you multiclass, so the animal companion levels 4 more levels after you take another class.
Pprobably to a Pathfinder Prestige Class, since the book is a book about the Pathfinder Chroniclers ;)-TDL
It's also a great feat for Rangers. It eliminates the -3 when calculating your effective druid level.
-Swiftbrook
Except you can't meet the prereq until 4, and your next available feat is 5. My GM already vetoed it anyway. Thanks though.
It still doesn't answer the inherent imbalance in the different AC. The only reason to make the wolf medium going to large and the hyena/dog small going to medium is to allow different size mounts from what I can tell. There is no logical reason. H*ll, dogs are larger than wolves, so why should they be smaller? It wouldn't be so bad if the stat bonuses for going to large weren't so huge. The small dog on the other hand loses the bennefits of small size and doesn't get stat bonuses to fully offset it.
The in game result is I can buy large dogs fairly cheap and ride them, but then I can't make them an animal companion until 3 levels after I get the ability. It totally ruins the idea of me making my childhood pet St. Bernard into my animal compaion, since he is already medium. I may be able to make 1 of his puppies my AC, if we have enough time between adventures for him to grow up.
If your GM isn't willing to address the imbalance, I say just get a wolf and say the wolf is rather doglike.
(Again, huskies are 'dogs' but look very wolflike)
If your GM isn't willing to address the imbalance, I say just get a wolf and say the wolf is rather doglike.
(Again, huskies are 'dogs' but look very wolflike)
This made me laugh. He doesn't want a feat that will make a Ranger AC as good as a Druids. The problem isn't in the ranger VS Druid AC, its in the AC themselves not being balanced. I'm laughing because my GM may allow me to take Terrasque as a custom animal companion.
Overall I find the animal companions (Dog, hyena, and wolf) to be similar to each other in power assuming each of them are the same size (Which would be done if both the dog and hyena were improved to medium, and the wolf used the alternate advancement at 7th-Level rather than become larger).
The biggest differences crop up when one increases the size of the animal (especially going from medium to large). They get a large boost in offensive abilities, which is somewhat (if not entirely) canceled out by the bit of lost touch AC, slightly lower Reflex save, significant drop in their ability to hide, higher level required for the advancement, and especially the loss of maneuverability that comes with being a larger size category.
I'm not entirely sure why the hyena companion starts at small instead of medium. If I had to guess, it might have been to keep it from being too similar to the wolf companion.
I also love how wolves are twice the size of bears (bears start small then go medium).
The answer that James gave was that it was "for the sake of variety", and that the option to take a dog or hyena or whatever is there for flavor reasons even if they're weaker. Which begs the question of why they rebalanced them (separating companion stats from normal animal stats) in the first place; they've actually made them less balanced than they were, in addition to making less thematic sense (little bears, huge wolves).
It just looks sloppy to me; like they were going to do a well-balanced companion list but never got around to it. Maybe I'm wrong, but if there really are well-considered reasons for those choices then those reasons remain unfathomable to me and unrevealed.
I'd just houserule it back to using monster stats for them.
A medium bear is not small, it's good size, about like a black bear. The wolf is more like a dire wolf[which is large} not a wolf
Yea, that was my point. Bears start as babies (of one of the smallest species of bear) and then grow to their normal size; wolves start at their normal size and then grow to prehistoric proportions.
Black bears and wolves would probably both be medium, but black bears are still a lot bigger than wolves, and there are much bigger species of bear out there.
It's the kind of conceit I'd have no problem swallowing ("You get an unusually small bear, you get an unusually large wolf") if the result was a balanced list, but it isn't. Likewise, I'd grudgingly accept the "We want to make it interesting, not balanced" reasoning if the results made thematic sense, but they don't. It just looks unfinished to me; I don't know which if the two directions they were initially going in but they never got there.
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So I was curious just what size ranges real hyenas and wolves get to.
So quick digging online (so use a grain of salt with my numbers) resulted in this surprising information.
Wolves grow to about about 26-38 inches at the shoulder and weigh between 44-137 pounds.
I have two dogs about 130 pounds.
Hyenas grow to about 28-35 inches at the shoulder and can weigh between 90 to 190 pounds.
I have seen only one dog weigh in at 200 pounds (a HUGE Great Dane).
So, roughly, the hyena and wolf are about the same height but the hyena can weigh substantially more, beefier if you will.
Also interestingly hyenas are NOT in the canid family at all. In fact they are in the same Order as cats! Go figure!
Being as cats and dog share an ancestor that's not to odd
Also keep in mind the wolf is a dire wolf, not a wolf.
It isn't relevant, because 'dire wolves' in D&D aren't 'dire wolves' in RL, but... dire wolves in RL were not that much bigger than modern wolves, just stockier and a little heavier.
From wikipedia:
The Dire Wolf was larger than the Grey Wolf, averaging about 1.5 metres (5 ft) in length and weighing about 57 kg (130 lb) – 87.9 kg (190 lb).[6][7] Despite superficial similarities to the Grey Wolf, there were significant differences between the two species. The legs of the Dire Wolf were proportionally taller and sturdier than those of the Grey Wolf, and its brain case was smaller than that of a similarly-sized grey wolf.[8]
yes we know this. But in pathfinder dire wolves are large. So the wolf animal compaion is a dire wolf, not a wolf
A few more fun facts about hyenas...
Their packs are matriarchal.
The packs selectively breed themselves, since the female can choose which males she wishes to mate with.
The Hyena's digestive system can break down bone, and their biting strength is the strongest out of any land mammal at over 1000 lbs (around 4000 psi). For comparison, that's a bit (bad pun necessary) stronger than a tiger's or lion's bite. A wolf's bite is at around 1500 psi.
The spotted hyena hunts in packs and uses concentrated effort to take down animals that wolves balk at, like lions. (Note: hyenas don't go around killing lions, the particular case I'm remembering was from a male lion who threatened a pack with his presence. The spotted hyena does hunt wildebeast on a regular basis however)
They're extremely aggressive towards each other, and around 25% die from fighting during adolescent years.
They're rumored to be smarter than wolves, although in what way I was unable to find.
Definitely one of my favorite animals. It's too bad they're not so great in PF.
Oh well. My next Druid was going to have a dino companion anyway.
So I was curious just what size ranges real hyenas and wolves get to.
So quick digging online (so use a grain of salt with my numbers) resulted in this surprising information.
Wolves grow to about about 26-38 inches at the shoulder and weigh between 44-137 pounds.
I have two dogs about 130 pounds.
Hyenas grow to about 28-35 inches at the shoulder and can weigh between 90 to 190 pounds.
I have seen only one dog weigh in at 200 pounds (a HUGE Great Dane).
So, roughly, the hyena and wolf are about the same height but the hyena can weigh substantially more, beefier if you will.
Also interestingly hyenas are NOT in the canid family at all. In fact they are in the same Order as cats! Go figure!
I think the "riding" dogs are arround 50-75 lb, in the Husky/German sheperd range. This is slightly smaller than the average wolf.
The American Black bear, which starts at small and goes large in d&d is 125-550 lb and is at least 6-18 inches taller for an adult. They are also 4-6 ft long when standing on all 4 legs, while medium sized dog breeds are closer to 3 ft.
I got my information from wikipedia. I have no idea why bears start small.
You could use a wolf. Style your wolf after the Mexican Grey wolf which is a Desert Wolf. No reason a Grey Wolf can't exist in the deserts of Golorian.
Now I have no idea why Hyena is consider a small animal. A hyena can weigh up to 190 lbs. To me that sounds like Medium size. Oddly enough the Wolf is smaller than the hyena weight up to 160 lbs and it is a medium creature. Not sure why the Hyena is considered small.
After a lot of mental grinding, I've come to this idea:
Use best fit, change advancement as needed.
So I'd treat a hyena as a wolf, and at 7th level give +2 Str, +2 Con (The advancement many of the other animals have).
There you go.
Same applies for other animals you don't want to get bigger (like a dog or wolf, for that matter)
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I think the "riding" dogs are arround 50-75 lb, in the Husky/German sheperd range. This is slightly smaller than the average wolf.
Negative.
From the PFRPG SRD:
"Larger dogs (known to Small races like halflings and gnomes as riding dogs) include hardier breeds such as huskies, mastiffs, and wolfhounds."
Huskies are the smallest breed listed, and in my opinion, shouldn't be, They're too small. A 75 pound dog carrying anything over half its weight for more than a few minutes is going to suffer major damage to its back.
Mastiffs, or wolfhounds, now... Breeds that almost always top 100 pounds, whether male or female... THOSE are riding dogs, especially if the rider stays around 30-40 pounds.
But, hey... Who needs realism in the RPGs?
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I was inspired to make some Dire Hyena riding Cavalier Gnolls to throw at the party in my ongoing campaign. Well I realized that with the new rules I would not be able to use actual Dire Hyenas, but I vaguely remembered that Wolf animal Companions could gain size large at a later level. So I cracked open my Bestiary figuring that Hyenas would likely get the same thing. Instead I see that Hyenas start at small and gain size medium. I thought well that sucks. Then I started to take a closer look to see why the Hyenas get this difference. What I found was this, while the
Wolf and Hyena Stats in the Bestiary were damn near identical, and the base wolf Animal Companion stats were almost identical, the base hyena was cut back a bit, and the Hyena enhancement at later level is significantly weaker than the Wolf enhancement.
As a solution for myself, my Gnolls will be riding Hyenas with Wolf stats, but I just want to understand the logic behind this.
You asked the key question "why"?
This is my belief.
It's not worth the time to make them accurate.
It is more important for writers and publishers to create, revise, and balance the game as a whole instead of aiming for accuracy on elements in D&D that can actually be simulated accurately. Some quick research will show that hyenas are powerful animals that rival prides of lions in the African plains. However, the time it would take to make the accurately is not worth it. D&D adventures do not use enough animals to bother. Players like to boast about killing dragons, giants, devils, demons, and other fantastic creatures.
As my DM noted repeatedly, most animals in D&D are far weaker than in real life. I believe he is correct more times than not on this subject matter.
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I was inspired to make some Dire Hyena riding Cavalier Gnolls to throw at the party in my ongoing campaign. Well I realized that with the new rules I would not be able to use actual Dire Hyenas, but I vaguely remembered that Wolf animal Companions could gain size large at a later level. So I cracked open my Bestiary figuring that Hyenas would likely get the same thing. Instead I see that Hyenas start at small and gain size medium. I thought well that sucks. Then I started to take a closer look to see why the Hyenas get this difference. What I found was this, while the
Wolf and Hyena Stats in the Bestiary were damn near identical, and the base wolf Animal Companion stats were almost identical, the base hyena was cut back a bit, and the Hyena enhancement at later level is significantly weaker than the Wolf enhancement.
As a solution for myself, my Gnolls will be riding Hyenas with Wolf stats, but I just want to understand the logic behind this.
You asked the key question "why"?
This is my belief.
It's not worth the time to make them accurate.
It is more important for writers and publishers to create, revise, and balance the game as a whole instead of aiming for accuracy on elements in D&D that can actually be simulated accurately. Some quick research will show that hyenas are powerful animals that rival prides of lions in the African plains. However, the time it would take to make the accurately is not worth it. D&D adventures do not use enough animals to bother. Players like to boast about killing dragons, giants, devils, demons, and other fantastic creatures.
As my DM noted repeatedly, most animals in D&D are far weaker than in real life. I believe he is correct more times than not on this subject matter.
That doesn't really answer my actual question as I was asking why are they not balanced with other animal companions. Everything else you wrote I agree with. I worry much less about simulation than about having fun.
You know, I've been looking at the animals over and over again, and I think they may be more balanced than we credit them.
Consider dog vs. hyena:
Dog has +3 Str, +2 Con, +1 Wis (for what it matters)
Hyena has trip with bite
Same advancement scheme
I think that's a fair trade; bite is very handy
Dog vs. wolf:
Dog has +2 Dex, smaller size (-damage, +tohit, +AC)
Wolf has trip with bite
Dog gets earlier advancement, wolf gets later, bigger-bonus advancement.
Small size can be an advantage; the dog is more agile, has a better AC, can sneak around better (better Stealth), and so on.
Clearly, if you want a powerhouse, you are likely to go with a wolf, but not everyone wants a combat pet.
Personally, I find some of the default size changes annoying. In my games, I'll be allowing animal companions to opt for a +2 Str, +2 Con advancement with no size change, like Camels and Horses.
Well i totally agree that wolves being larger than bears is silly and does make my brain go "DERF! WTF?", even if we are talking about dire wolf, cause where did dire bear go then?
But from mechanical point of view:
Advanced Bear:
Str 19, Dex 13, Con 15th.
3 Attacks: Bite (1d6+6), 2x claws (1d4+4)
Bite is main attack and claws and secondary if i am not wrong, so bite gets 1 1/2 str.
Advaced Wolf (3 levels later than bear if i may add)
Str 21, Dex 13, Con 19
1 Attack: Bite (1d8 +7, trip)
Both are pretty balanced, all through stats don't really represent comparison of said animals, Bear is both stronger and more enduring than wolf is, yet wolf got better Str and Con - and somehow i would think that wolves are more agile, but yet, dex is same.
Balance wise, mechanic wise, Big Cats should be nerfed, cause there is just too much of a power gap between them and any other animal companion (1d8 bite, same as wolf, 2x claws at 1d6 (as strong as bears bite), pounce, rake, scent,grab. Give them Tommy Guns, few hot rods and let them take over the world in my opinion)