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I just can't get my head around wanting to trek around in any type of heavy armor for long periods of time. I used to have to wear armor while in the Marines. Kevlar flak jackets and a bullet proof vests consisting of a IIRC 10 lb kevlar vest and a 20 lb steel "breast" plate. The vest without the plate was fine, but as soon as you dropped that plate in there it went from fine to near tortuous.
Donning this armor for short drills and training exercises wasn't bad, but wearing it all day was. I just can't see even a fighter type wearing more than light armor for general adventuring. I can see strapping on the banded mail for a quick, couple hour scenario but not for an adventure that might last for days or weeks.
Now I am relatively new at fantasy rpgs. I played as a kid and am getting back into it now. I am just musing right now but what do others think?
I just can't get my head around wanting to trek around in any type of heavy armor for long periods of time. I used to have to wear armor while in the Marines. Kevlar flak jackets and a bullet proof vests consisting of a IIRC 10 lb kevlar vest and a 20 lb steel "breast" plate. The vest without the plate was fine, but as soon as you dropped that plate in there it went from fine to near tortuous.
Donning this armor for short drills and training exercises wasn't bad, but wearing it all day was. I just can't see even a fighter type wearing more than light armor for general adventuring. I can see strapping on the banded mail for a quick, couple hour scenario but not for an adventure that might last for days or weeks.
Now I am relatively new at fantasy rpgs. I played as a kid and am getting back into it now. I am just musing right now but what do others think?
I was in the military too, and if we were to play with more realism we would not be walking around town with armor on, but in the games we always do. It also makes things easier than having to notify the DM every time you decide to don armor or take it off.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I think one of the main issues here is the difference between an adventurer and a soldier. The main reason an adventurer wants their heavy armor on at all times is that adventurers know through experience (the ones who live long enough know this at least) that they're constantly being attacked, even when they're not technically on an adventure. Often things start when mysterious assassins stab them, monsters appear on the street they're walking down and try to eat them, etc.
Soldiers on the other hand, spend most of their time not actually fighting, and resent having to wear heavy armor when they know that 99.9% of the time they're just doing drills, going on patrols of safe caravan routes, standing guard at castles that have never been attacked, etc. if the soldier actually goes to war, then they'll strap on their heavy armor the day of a battle, but that's it.
Also, the average 1st-level Fighter, Cleric, or Paladin - the Heavy Armor classes - has 14 STR. If they're a Half-Orc or another race that gets a racial boost to STR it may be more like 16, perhaps even 18 if they're all-out stat-slanted.
14 STR. That's enough above normal human capacity (10 STR) to be considered nearly superhuman; 16 and beyond is superhuman by any stretch of the imagination. I would imagine the majority of soldiers who have trained heavily in weightlifting and basic military gear to have 12 STR - above human average for sure but hardly superhero material.
Compared to the real-world modern soldier, your full-plate clad Fighter is probably significantly superior physically, if less versatile on weapon skills and special techniques and such due to poor skill points.
Adventurers aren't your normal soldiers. They know their life is an ever-present state of danger and thus must always be prepared. Also, remember, in most games, we aren't playing the character during mundane activities such as visiting their great aunt to get her blackberry jam recipe, instead we are controlling the characters when we go to take to smouldering heart of the mountain god dracolich Mercer the Magnificent.
As Orthos pointed out, normally adventurers who are wearing heavy armor have far above average strength and, thus, wouldn't have as much trouble as you or I would walking around in that heavy-plate.
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also remember there is a difference in modern and historical thinking as well.
I would never wear five layers of wool clothing in the middle of the summer, but some cultures sure did. And they had wigs as well! Talk about stinking of sweat!
Back in the day, the average foot soldier didn't wear a great deal of armor, but he did wear some on a semi-regular basis. Some Knights trained from childhood on wearing armor. While they did not wear it for every day affairs, when in war they wore it quite often, though again not like in D&D.
Try thinking of it this way, if you were in the army... you wear your body armor when going into combat... it is a necessary sacrifice to save your life, but what if you were in potential combat 24/7? Would you decide your life was not worth saving in order to have some more comfort?
I suppose some would say yes... but I also suspect they would not really last beyond maybe level 3...
Eventually some SCA-guy will get on this thread and talk about the weight-distribution of armor and how easy it is to wear all day long.
Well, not really...
Even with the better weight-distribution of many historical armors (modern military personal armor tends to be looser on the body, so more of the load is concentrated on the shoulders), it's still uncomfortable to wear for long periods of time. Having worn both for extended periods (being in the military and an SCA member), IMO there's really not a lot of difference (they both weigh about 40 lbs or so total), other than modern military armor having better airflow for cooling, better visibility with a k-pot, and a slightly worse effect on balance because of the emphasis on the torso (but no more so than carrying a shield).
In either case, wearing armor for several hours a day is bearable. Hygiene and maintenance factors make "living in" armor for days at a time without removing it a poor idea, however.
Let's put this in perspective ... you're more likely to roll an 18 Intelligence on 3d6 than to possess a 145 IQ, which is considered "genius-level" but still within "very normal" human bounds (i.e. three standard deviations). If the same holds true for Strength (and why shouldn't it), then a major university campus probably has several student athletes with 18+ Strength, as does much if not all of the NFL.
Ah, see that's where I got screwed up. I've always been of the impression that an 18 INT was closer to say 300 IQ, and that relative other scores would be on a similar scale to that. So I admit my perspective is somewhat skewed.
BTW, 10.5 is "average" in D&D. An "average" NPC has three 10s and three 11s, neither of which gives any check bonus.
Then again I like having a very drastic line between your "average" commoner (who has all 10s except for maybe one 11 or 12 - therein lies our difference yet again, I set the bar lower for non-adventurers) and the adventurer (who could have stats all over the place, sometimes nothing lower than a 13), so I've always thought of the stat point bars being set significantly higher.
That does help, thanks :)
Historically, it is unrealistic to have people wandering around town in full battle gear. In situations where they didn't need to be immediately battle-ready, knights and warriors only wore those portions of their kit deemed most necessary.
Paintings of Carpaccio do show fighting men relaxing and arguing while wearing their greaves, breastplates or brigandines, and open-faced helmets. Such gear wouldn't be particularly uncomfortable.
The engravings of Albrecht Durer show city guards wearing breastplates, cuisses, and helmets, and carrying bucklers slung on their sword hilts.
My experience has been that SCA armor is more comfortable than modern combat gear, but then I used to make armor, so my gear was perfectly fitted. I still took off my helmet, gorget, shield, and gauntlets except when I was using them.
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I think adventurers know when they're "adventuring" and when they're not. I don't think boogie-men jump out at them with great frequency. I do think that real-men wear bracers of armor in town, even if they are Fighters.
Dude you have not been in the games I have been... Cities are where you go when you have to, because every freaking corner alley has some freak ready to ambush you.
Okay an exaggeration, but still, in most games I have been in, cities are NOT SAFE!
And really as far as realism goes and historically accurate goes... mmm MAGIC armor and MAGIC weapons, FIREBALLS, and ELVES and DWARVES!
Heeelllloooo not shooting for realistic nor accurate... shooting for fun!
:)
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Having trained for the USMC, and also having played Heavy Fighter in the SCA, I can speak with a bit of conviction on this matter.
With time, patience, practice and discipline... heavy armor can be done for a fairly extended period. It SUCKS, but it can be done.
Now with that said, I (the player) am Human. To render myself as a character, in my peak (when I was doing this crazy stuff) I had: STR 12 or 13, CON 14 and DEX 10. I could lug heavy, soak suffering and shoot ok.
My fighter characters tend to have STR > 16, CON > 16 and DEX > 12. Give or take.
And they're fantasy characters in a fantasy world with magic and monsters.
There is a point where you have to accept that your character can and will do things that a real person couldn't and wouldn't. Thus, fantasy.
I like realism where it's called for, and in a realistic game I will ask these questions readily. But when we're hack and slashing, or even playing a heavy fantasy game, it's just that.
That said, my characters have been guilty of 'equipment glut' in the past. Carrying a great axe, a warhammer, a heavy crossbow AND a shield. To which my GM responded "Um, where is all that stuff on your person?"
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Re: 18 STR as "human normal possible" Consider the following:
1 3 lbs. or less 4–6 lbs. 7–10 lbs.
2 6 lbs. or less 7–13 lbs. 14–20 lbs.
3 10 lbs. or less 11–20 lbs. 21–30 lbs.
4 13 lbs. or less 14–26 lbs. 27–40 lbs.
5 16 lbs. or less 17–33 lbs. 34–50 lbs.
6 20 lbs. or less 21–40 lbs. 41–60 lbs.
7 23 lbs. or less 24–46 lbs. 47–70 lbs.
8 26 lbs. or less 27–53 lbs. 54–80 lbs.
9 30 lbs. or less 31–60 lbs. 61–90 lbs.
10 33 lbs. or less 34–66 lbs. 67–100 lbs.
11 38 lbs. or less 39–76 lbs. 77–115 lbs.
12 43 lbs. or less 44–86 lbs. 87–130 lbs.
13 50 lbs. or less 51–100 lbs. 101–150 lbs.
14 58 lbs. or less 59–116 lbs. 117–175 lbs.
15 66 lbs. or less 67–133 lbs. 134–200 lbs.
16 76 lbs. or less 77–153 lbs. 154–230 lbs.
17 86 lbs. or less 87–173 lbs. 174–260 lbs.
18 100 lbs. or less 101–200 lbs. 201–300 lbs.
19 116 lbs. or less 117–233 lbs. 234–350 lbs.
20 133 lbs. or less 134–266 lbs. 267–400 lbs.
21 153 lbs. or less 154–306 lbs. 307–460 lbs.
22 173 lbs. or less 174–346 lbs. 347–520 lbs.
23 200 lbs. or less 201–400 lbs. 401–600 lbs.
24 233 lbs. or less 234–466 lbs. 467–700 lbs.
25 266 lbs. or less 267–533 lbs. 534–800 lbs.
26 306 lbs. or less 307–613 lbs. 614–920 lbs.
27 346 lbs. or less 347–693 lbs. 694–1,040 lbs.
28 400 lbs. or less 401–800 lbs. 801–1,200 lbs.
29 466 lbs. or less 467–933 lbs. 934–1,400 lbs.
This is from the Pathfinder PRD. In my estimation, this is VERY reasonable and I would like to redact my previous statement. The idea of running with 100 pounds of gear might SUCK, but with training you could hoof it at full speed with 100 pounds. Beyond that, it does get more and more unlikely, but I can definitely speak for myself when I say that in my prime I could truck at almost full speed with a 90 pound pack and rifle. If memory serves, the 90 pound pack uphill is pretty standard for USMC, especially MCRD Paris Island. In the summer. I never did that, and I salute those who did, but I did similar on hills in Austin TX when I was prepping to go to MCRD. With DI's on my 3 and 9 MAKING me do it. Could I do it now? 15+ years of civilian life later? Heck no!
People wearing heavy armor, form fitted to themselves, should definitely be able to haul butt in it.
I have a great deal of respect for the men and women of the armed forces, and I hope that my commentary here has shown that. Thanks for starting the thread, it's awesome!
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Your welcome, and we must of served at the same time. 93-97 for me.
When starting this thread another thing in the back of my mind is that in fantasy novels, the characters almost never weary armor. I am currently reading through all of the Black Company novels, where they have been in pretty much constant battle for 30 years. None of the characters wear armor. Sure, Lady and Croaker do for effect, but I can only remember one instance where armor is mentioned (can't remember specifically though).
For some reason, the other thing that bothers me is that fighters don't have stealth for a skill. To me (probably from my training) stealth is an integral part to being a warrior. I don't think it takes away from rogue (no sneak attack) but being able to move silently and hide is a core fighter attribute.
That said, my characters have been guilty of 'equipment glut' in the past. Carrying a great axe, a warhammer, a heavy crossbow AND a shield. To which my GM responded "Um, where is all that stuff on your person?"
Heward's Handy Haversack and belts with loops. Best low-level magic item ever.
I dont think I ever went over 60 pounds, but since I am small and that is almost have my body weight I would have hated to do 90. Having been there, and done that I can say my back does not miss it, and neither do I.
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Also... about characters being really strapped down with gear... have you looked at Merisial's(sp) picture? lol.
Look at Harsk. I think it'd perfectly normal for Pathfinders to constantly be carrying/bearing/wearing gear. They are, by their very definition, constantly in danger of some sort of nasty demise; recovering lost knowledge, ancient relics, and stolen artifacts tends to make one very careful, or very dead.
The game is built on the premise that if 10-11 is an average stat, a +5 to an ability score equates to a doubling of the power of that ability score--see Mikhaila's quote of the Str table, for example.
So a person with 15 Str is twice as strong as an average person. A person with 20 Str is four times as strong as an average person, and twice as strong as someone with 15 Str.
Remember also that your typical NPC uses the basic ability score array: 13 12 11 10 9 8. People with PC classes are rare (perhaps 1% of the population) and they start with the heroic array: 15 14 13 12 10 8. So while your typical NPC warrior may have a 13 Str (or 15 if he uses his +2 human racial bonus to Str), he's still significantly weaker than your typical PC fighter with 15 Str (or 17 with the racial bonus). In fact, your 17 Str fighter1 is almost 3x as strong as your typical person... the sort of person you'd see on the street and say, "wow, that dude is BUFF!" And someone with that level of strength is going to be able to handle heavy armor a lot better and for longer periods of time than your average Str 10 person or even the Str 13 warrior1.
Being currently in the military myself and having had to wear the newest body armor the military has[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improved_Outer_Tactical_Vest[/url]Now this vest weighs about 35 pounds with the protective plates. I can say from personal experience that wearing it for just 8 hours a day is extremely draining. Mind you, I'm talking about simply wearing the vest and not conducting any type of strenuous activity. It's not fitted professionally for each individual but it is adjustable to a certain extent. Wearing this without doing any of these adjustments keeps the entirety of the weight resting on your shoulders. Making these adjustments is supposed to distribute the weight to your waist as well. Now, I'm not as young as I used to be, but I'm still in pretty damn good shape. Add carrying my rifle and ammo and that's another 25 pounds. This takes my total carried weight up to 60 pounds. Add in any extra gear, ie sleeping system, food, water, changes of clothes; and this takes us up above 100 pounds. Now with just this weight, we perform what is know as a ruck march. Said marches vary in length but we'll go with a simple 12 mile ruck. This is expected to be completed in 3 hours. I know that I kind of went off-topic a bit but my personal opinion would be that even the strongest adventurer in the best-fitted armor would not wear it at all times.
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However, modern military training is more akin to a Fighter/Ranger multi-class than historical "Fighters".
Ah, so that is why I have a kitty for an animal companion, but never gained the ability to cast spells ;P
Looking at the iconics pictures, yes, they do seem to be carrying a lot of gear, but they are drawn exactly how I would picture adventurer to travel. Strapped down with gear and ready to kick booty. As far as armor, Valeros looks just right for going out on an adventure without being too bogged down by weight.
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Being currently in the military myself and having had to wear the newest body armor the military hasLINK Now this vest weighs about 35 pounds with the protective plates. I can say from personal experience that wearing it for just 8 hours a day is extremely draining. Mind you, I'm talking about simply wearing the vest and not conducting any type of strenuous activity. It's not fitted professionally for each individual but it is adjustable to a certain extent. Wearing this without doing any of these adjustments keeps the entirety of the weight resting on your shoulders. Making these adjustments is supposed to distribute the weight to your waist as well. Now, I'm not as young as I used to be, but I'm still in pretty damn good shape. Add carrying my rifle and ammo and that's another 25 pounds. This takes my total carried weight up to 60 pounds. Add in any extra gear, ie sleeping system, food, water, changes of clothes; and this takes us up above 100 pounds. Now with just this weight, we perform what is know as a ruck march. Said marches vary in length but we'll go with a simple 12 mile ruck. This is expected to be completed in 3 hours. I know that I kind of went off-topic a bit but my personal opinion would be that even the strongest adventurer in the best-fitted armor would not wear it at all times.
Linkificated
I know that I kind of went off-topic a bit but my personal opinion would be that even the strongest adventurer in the best-fitted armor would not wear it at all times.
And that's why so many 1st-level adventurers die when they're caught with their armor off. Orcs gotta get their treasure from somewhere, yes? :)
It's probably also why adventurers can sleep right next to a stack of dead troglodytes--they're damn tired after all that armor-slogging!
Once you get past the smell, they're right comfy...so I hear.
It's probably also why adventurers can sleep right next to a stack of dead troglodytes--they're damn tired after all that armor-slogging!
It's because Trogs are still kind of squishy, their scales aren't as solid as say lizardfolk or kobold.
I think what he is saying is that "Yeah, that's a lot of gear, but it doesn't look ridiculous and seems workable" - as opposed to, say, the million-pouch harness that every single Rob Liefield character wears, with guns that would be impossible to aim, draw, or holster effectively, and gear that would literally snag on other bits with every step.
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ooking at the iconics pictures, yes, they do seem to be carrying a lot of gear, but they are drawn exactly how I would picture adventurer to travel.Ok ... lets keep in mind that we're talking about ART here, not realism or photography or anything. If you want to play your game that way, that's fine. Personally, I've never understood how a chainmail bikini can offer as much protection as a chain shirt, but according to fantasy gamer art if you have boobs then you only need to barely cover your nipples to get full-body armor protection.
Point is, art is art, and nothing more. You certainly can't make judgements of what is "real" or "possible" or even "plausible" based on something that is pure imagination simply designed to look cool.
Now if that's the way you envision your game, so be it and more power to you. But please don't use the argument that "because some artist drew it that way it must be possible".
R.
Wow, thanks for clearing that up for me. I was wondering how a little barbarian with her belly showing could swing that big sword she is holding while at the same time not getting creamed by the BBEG. I linked a picture of Valeros as an example, because it happens to be drawn in a way I could see an adventurer dressing. Same thing with the bard and the dwarf and maybe a couple others. I certainly wouldn't expect of suit of armor that looks like Alias' to last long in a swordfight. Lighten up dude.
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Point is, art is art, and nothing more. You certainly can't make judgements of what is "real" or "possible" or even "plausible" based on something that is pure imagination simply designed to look cool.
Now if that's the way you envision your game, so be it and more power to you. But please don't use the argument that "because some artist drew it that way it must be possible".
Actually, none of the Iconics art is over-the top at all, most of them (with the exception of the casters) look like they're well-prepared to travel a long distance. I've known avid campers who pack more gear (including at least a pistol) than is shown on the iconics for far shorter journeys that are almost never going to result in any sort of violence with the indigenous population whatsoever. Nobody is claiming that because it was drawn it is plausible, the only claim implied is that their artistic representations are very plausible in the real world, except that some of them aren't human, and some of them can shoot lightning from their eyes...
... which brings me to my next point: look, man, we get it, you aren't a fan of suspending disbelief, but you're banging your head against a system that allows for feats of strength (literal and otherwise) which cannot be achieved in reality. Forget reality, forget your - or anyone elses' - military experience, and remember that this is a game about four to six representations of das ubermensch who band together and go spelunking in volcanoes and pick fights with the local demon-posessed-dragon-who-leads-barbarian-hordes for fun. Even if you must come up with some sort of reason to constantly wear armor when not breakfasting at Tiffany's or having tea with the King:
Dwarves are never slowed by their armor, it is implied that they are trained to (if not prefer to) live in it - this is likely because of their history of digging holes into bigger holes that house something that probably wants to kill them.
Elves wear armor forged from a magical-silver/steel compound that provides the same protection at less than half the weight.
Any Cleric/Priest of any deity whose domain might be Battle, Strategy, or War would likely consider their armor part of their vestments. The same goes for Paladins.
Traveling fortune-seeking adventurers realize that sleeping alongside the Road of Skulls, deep in Troll Country could mean the difference between waking up tired but functional, taking 4 minutes (that you don't have, because your lookout can only really wake you up when trouble is afoot, and 60 seconds = 10 combat rounds) to try and put on your armor, running and abandoning your armor, or standing and fighting trolls without your armor. Sometimes waking up fatigued is the best option, especially when the alternative is to not ever wake up again...
... or you could take Endurance.
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... which brings me to my next point: look, man, we get it, you aren't a fan of suspending disbelief, but you're banging your head against a system that allows for feats of strength (literal and otherwise) which cannot be achieved in reality....
It was just something I was thinking about. If I were to play a fighter than yes, I would get the best armor available and live with it. I love the Armor Training feature of the class. I was just sitting around thinking one night, and thought I might see what others think.
I am just musing right now but what do others think?
Actually, none of the Iconics art is over-the top at all, most of them (with the exception of the casters) look like they're well-prepared to travel a long distance.
I guarantee you that Wayne knows exactly what every piece of gear is that he's drawn for the iconics. He can tell you what's in that pouch, why that strap is where it is, and so on. His iconic art is very functional.
Other artists are not so, of course (Liefeld's characters are a perfect example of this).
I certainly wouldn't expect of suit of armor that looks like Alias' to last long in a swordfight. Lighten up dude.
Remember that Alias is an artificial humanoid created by a cult that intended to sacrifice her in a magical ritual; her armor was specifically designed so her creators could stab her in the heart. It's not intended to be practical in battle.
(Liefeld's characters are a perfect example of this).
Ah, Sean, why did you have to go and bring Rob into this? Now I have visions of Seoni twisting at multiple places along her torso, and Valerous having six fingers on one of his hands, and Harsk carrying a ballista instead of a crossbow . . .
Remember that Alias is an artificial humanoid created by a cult that intended to sacrifice her in a magical ritual; her armor was specifically designed so her creators could stab her in the heart. It's not intended to be practical in battle.
Not to mention, I don't remember Jeff Grubb's novel to ever have actually referenced the "open chest" design of the armor either. Although I did like it when they made the joke about it in the Forgotten Realms comic years ago.
"Nice armor."
"Its magical."
"I'll bet."
Having trained for the USMC, and also having played Heavy Fighter in the SCA, I can speak with a bit of conviction on this matter.
With time, patience, practice and discipline... heavy armor can be done for a fairly extended period. It SUCKS, but it can be done.
Now with that said, I (the player) am Human. To render myself as a character, in my peak (when I was doing this crazy stuff) I had: STR 12 or 13, CON 14 and DEX 10. I could lug heavy, soak suffering and shoot ok.
My fighter characters tend to have STR > 16, CON > 16 and DEX > 12. Give or take.
And they're fantasy characters in a fantasy world with magic and monsters.
There is a point where you have to accept that your character can and will do things that a real person couldn't and wouldn't. Thus, fantasy.
I like realism where it's called for, and in a realistic game I will ask these questions readily. But when we're hack and slashing, or even playing a heavy fantasy game, it's just that.
That said, my characters have been guilty of 'equipment glut' in the past. Carrying a great axe, a warhammer, a heavy crossbow AND a shield. To which my GM responded "Um, where is all that stuff on your person?"
Another thing to remember is that knights who wore heavy armor in the middle ages trained in in for 7 years, from age 14 as a squire until age 21 when they became eligible to become a knight, they needed to be able to run jump and even climb walls in plate armor...
Another thing to remember is that knights who wore heavy armor in the middle ages trained in in for 7 years, from age 14 as a squire until age 21 when they became eligible to become a knight, they needed to be able to run jump and even climb walls in plate armor...
And also, all that lovely show armor and jousting armor that they love to use in movies was not the combat armor of knights and nobles. What they wore for hours of fighting, usually from horseback, was much lighter than that other stuff. A knight in fighting armor could get onto a horse on their own, not need a winch like the jousting armor.
And another thing unrealistic about plate armor, other than weight and maneuverability, was proved by the English longbowmen against the French knights. A single well-placed and powerful longbow arrow will kill you, even with all that armor.
And also, all that lovely show armor and jousting armor that they love to use in movies was not the combat armor of knights and nobles. What they wore for hours of fighting, usually from horseback, was much lighter than that other stuff. A knight in fighting armor could get onto a horse on their own, not need a winch like the jousting armor.
AFAIK, this winching stuff is a myth from the 19th century, when folks researching jousting could not imagine it otherwise. I´d guess that 1. the knight gets on his horse and 2. gets his jousting armor dressed then by his squire. Or the knight has a helper or two getting on his horse.
Stefan
For some reason, the other thing that bothers me is that fighters don't have stealth for a skill. To me (probably from my training) stealth is an integral part to being a warrior. I don't think it takes away from rogue (no sneak attack) but being able to move silently and hide is a core fighter attribute.
I think the fighter in D&D represents the classical knight more than a modern soldier. Thus, he has no need for stealth. Modern soldiers would probably better be reflected by a non-spellcasting ranger or a rogue/expert.
Stefan
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Speak for yourself. "The Game" is really just the mechanics. The rest is what you do with it.
That's sort of the point I'm making here. You are speaking for yourself. I'm describing D&D as it is commonly perceived and played by most people, myself included; I don't claim you can't play it any other way.
Most of that stuff isn't interesting to draw, or play, so no one does. So our perspective is skewed. So we perceive characters as wearing armor and carrying weapons and gear more often than anyone really would.
This too. Except that the perspective isn't skewed, its just that outside of the single-sentence "I eat my food and then sleep"/"I craft the chainmail" descriptions we assign to the downtime, we don't pay much attention to it, and why should we? The reason we see images of adventurers adventuring is because that's what people generally want out of the game.
Nobody is claiming to have trouble with understanding why you don't bring a greataxe to a wedding, so what you're explaining isn't exactly enlightening - its common sense.
It was just something I was thinking about. If I were to play a fighter than yes, I would get the best armor available and live with it. I love the Armor Training feature of the class. I was just sitting around thinking one night, and thought I might see what others think.
No worries man, it makes perfect sense, I really only play characters who constantly wear armor if they're: desperate, Dwarves, rangers, priests of one of the aforementioned types of deities, or are supposed to be super-tough hard-as-nails mercenaries.
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Sorry to offend you. I quoted you only because it was the nearest post that semi-referenced the art-thing. I was actually thinking more along the lines of this:But please don't use the argument that "because some artist drew it that way it must be possible".Wow, thanks for clearing that up for me. I was wondering how a little barbarian with her belly showing ...
Lighten up dude.
I know context is hard to portray in text in a message board, but it did come across kind of like talking down to me. I wasn't really offended, just kind of wtf.
Actually, the way you describe your campaigns is the way I like to envision what I like in both fantasy novels, and the way I want to play. Keep the laws of physics but add some magic and creatures. Can't keep this long, gotta go.
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I've never seen statistics on how "most people" play it, but from the groups I've been involved with and all the threads I've read, I think there's certainly a large "realist" and even "simulationist" segment of the D&D-playing population.
I'm pretty sure that I was making the point that it can be played multiple ways, while you were making the point that I was wasting my time in this conversation because I was "playing it wrong".
Sure sounds like you're telling me what the game IS and that I'm "doing it wrong". Your comments are full of Imperatives telling me what to do - even what I "must" do - and an Absolutist tone. I don't see anything that says "can be" but only "is".
TTFN :-)
Rez
Hilarious. Really. But you're right, I've been over the top. I mean, I've and reiterated and pushed my opinion at least three times in this thread, and, honestly, it was a bit much when I admonished anyone who might disagree with me to simply not do it (though I did edit that out). Then there was the time when I went on a near-three-paragraph pontification based on your pointing out a Dwarven ranger's manner of field dress. The coup de grace? When I accused you of doing much the same, completely ignoring any and all of your opinions and focusing entirely on my perception of your textual tone, moving this from a mostly civil discourse to where we now sit.
Marry, sir, I have committed false report; moreover, I have spoken untruths; secondarily, I am a slanderer; sixth and lastly; I have belied an opinion; thirdly, I have verified unjust things; and, to conclude, I am a lying knave. And masters, sirs, do not forget to specify, when time and place shall assert, that I am an ass.
Forgive me.
Ok, now that that's done... lets be sincere for a moment:
I'm hardly being pushy here, I'm being dead-honest, this is what people who buy Pathfinder are generally looking for. Considering that, I would say it was completely fair to assume Paizo would try to sell to the largest common denominator, in this case, the "most people" I described. They don't commission that amount and quality of art just to hang it on the walls. The game, as presented, purchased, and played, is generally about Nietzsche's imaginary best friend (and that friend's twin brothers/sisters) kicking dragons in the teeth.
I pointed out the obvious - much like you (though I only did it once), and I truly fail to see how saying 'This game is about doing awesome stuff...' in any way conflicts with your assertion that '... you don't eat breakfast with a mace.'
Failing to see that, I REALLY can't see how that implies you're somehow having wrongbadfun. In fact, you've never once refuted that your games (whether you play or run them) involve those very kinds of plots/action - you've just been hammering the thread with your opinion on who wears armor when, alongside some conjecture on stats - my point was really rather minor, why did I bring the point around in the first place? To show you that we got your point. This is the last time I'll say it, and I'll quote myself for good measure:
... outside of the single-sentence "I eat my food and then sleep"/"I craft the chainmail" descriptions we assign to the downtime, we don't pay much attention to it, and why should we? The reason we see images of adventurers adventuring is because that's what people generally want out of the game.
Nobody is claiming to have trouble with understanding why you don't bring a greataxe to a wedding, so what you're explaining isn't exactly enlightening - its common sense.
And really, my saying "... what you're explaining isn't exactly enlightening - its common sense ..." was, more or less, me agreeing with you, but asking that you move along with the conversation. I'm pretty sure you’ve heavily misconstrued my meaning based off what vowels you thought I was emphasizing/stretching. From now on, in your inner-dialogue, consider my voice to be that of Leonard Nimoy’s to avoid any further confusion.
I think its fair to say our positions have been established. So please, a little less accusatory threadjack and a little more discussion on the subject at hand?
TYVM
P.S. I found a picture of the iconics enjoying their time at a local tavern. It is the last image linked, if you haven't clicked it yet. I just thought that was a bit funny.
Back on subject:
Concerning inserting any 'simulation' or 'realism' into a game by messing with the mechanics - I’m an all-or-nothing kind of guy, one change begets another, one compromise the next. I prefer not to fix what isn’t broken, and there are enough built-in mechanical reasons to not wear medium/heavy armor all the time that I really feel its common sense that people don’t; if someone specifies that they do, then consult the rules and begin stacking the penalties until they buy Endurance or figure out that being Fatigued sucks.