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Using acid splash to try and break the lock in this way is just as effective as using a vial of acid - both do absolutely nothing to the lock.Say what? I can see why people say acid splash won't work, but vials of acid are an entirely different story. Acid from a non-magical source don't vanish within 6 seconds.
It depends entirely on the kind of acid.
The game simplifies things somewhat, but in all honesty, an acid that's potent enough to melt through several inches of steel with an infinite amount of time but small enough to fit in a little glass vial wouldn't:
A) be something any rogue would want in their pack near all thier precious thieves tools and gold and spine
B) be something that any alchemist would sell for a mere 10 gold
C) do a messily 1d6 damage and then dissipate
There's a big difference between industrial strength, metal-disolving acid and the caustic but quick burning liquid you can get at a hardware or arts supply store. Adventures don't carry around the industrial strength stuff any more than alchemists sell it in easy to carry quantities.
Several inches of steel? What in the Nine Hells are you talking about? You don't even have to melt one inch of steel to disable a door lock (nevermind that they wouldn't often be made of steel).
You are all assuming that acid splash doesn't by pass hardness which is entirely up to the DM as per the rules. I would rule acid splash would burn right through a low grade lock with a few shots and could even burn through harder metals if enough damage is done. It is up to the DM so you decide how want acid splash to work.
Each object has hardness—a number that
represents how well it resists damage. When an object is
damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only
damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object’s
hit points (see Table 7–12, Table 7–13, and Table 7–14).
Hit Points: An object’s hit point total depends on what
it is made of and how big it is (see Table 7–12, Table 7–13,
and Table 7–14). Objects that take damage equal to or greater
than half their total hit points gain the broken condition (see
Appendix 2). When an object’s hit points reach 0, it’s ruined.
Very large objects have separate hit point totals for
different sections.
Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to
most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the
object’s hardness.
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Several inches of steel? What in the Nine Hells are you talking about? You don't even have to melt one inch of steel to disable a door lock (nevermind that they wouldn't often be made of steel).
Fair enough. How about this: Longswords have a hardness of 10 and 5 hit points. The lock might not be as hard as a longsword (being possibly iron), but is definately thicker. i believe Iron has a hardness of 8, for instance, and a precious metal like Copper is non-reactive and thus wouldn't be dissolved (handy for throwing acid at enemies, annoying when trying to melt locks). A vial of acid does about as much damage as casting acid splash twice at the same time.
Please explain how an infinite number of acid splash castings or vials of acid is capable of dealing any damage at all to a reasonably heavy lock. Because, unless the metal is particularly vulnerable to acid, or we're talking about something other than standard adventuring acid, I don't see it.
You are all assuming that acid splash doesn't by pass hardness which is entirely up to the DM as per the rules. I would rule acid splash would burn right through a low grade lock with a few shots and could even burn through harder metals if enough damage is done. It is up to the DM so you decide how want acid splash to work.
Each object has hardness—a number that
represents how well it resists damage. When an object is
damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only
damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object’s
hit points (see Table 7–12, Table 7–13, and Table 7–14).
Hit Points: An object’s hit point total depends on what
it is made of and how big it is (see Table 7–12, Table 7–13,
and Table 7–14). Objects that take damage equal to or greater
than half their total hit points gain the broken condition (see
Appendix 2). When an object’s hit points reach 0, it’s ruined.
Very large objects have separate hit point totals for
different sections.
Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to
most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the
object’s hardness.
it is always up to the GM, though your quote only states full damage but says nothing about bypassing hardness.
Mahrdol:
The problem is that even if acid does full damage against metal (which I think is totally reasonable), you still have full hardness to deal with.
I think 3e had some rules for reducing hardness for particularly thin/small pieces of a material. That MIGHT work for very tiny bits of metal, but even then you're heaping houserule on houserule. It's definitely not going to eat away the lock, but break bits in a functional way... maybe.
Mahrdol:
The problem is that even if acid does full damage against metal (which I think is totally reasonable), you still have full hardness to deal with.I think 3e had some rules for reducing hardness for particularly thin/small pieces of a material. That MIGHT work for very tiny bits of metal, but even then you're heaping houserule on houserule. It's definitely not going to eat away the lock, but break bits in a functional way... maybe.
I stand corrected.
Of course it could just be some wierd magic acid which only effects organic items...
it is always up to the GM, though your quote only states full damage but says nothing about bypassing hardness.You are all assuming that acid splash doesn't by pass hardness which is entirely up to the DM as per the rules. I would rule acid splash would burn right through a low grade lock with a few shots and could even burn through harder metals if enough damage is done. It is up to the DM so you decide how want acid splash to work.
Each object has hardness—a number that
represents how well it resists damage. When an object is
damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only
damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object’s
hit points (see Table 7–12, Table 7–13, and Table 7–14).
Hit Points: An object’s hit point total depends on what
it is made of and how big it is (see Table 7–12, Table 7–13,
and Table 7–14). Objects that take damage equal to or greater
than half their total hit points gain the broken condition (see
Appendix 2). When an object’s hit points reach 0, it’s ruined.
Very large objects have separate hit point totals for
different sections.
Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to
most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the
object’s hardness.
If you aren't bypassing the hardness then you aren't dealing full damage. I submit that there is plenty of room for interpretation.
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I'd argue for an adhoc type of rule.
Using acid on the lock might not always work they way you would want. I'd suggest that for avery point of damage you got some sort of bonus to your disable device roll.
perhaps +3/1 point(s) of damage.
You are more liekly to hinder disable device with acid. It would essentially break the lock, but maybe not in a way that makes it open.
If you aren't bypassing the hardness then you aren't dealing full damage. I submit that there is plenty of room for interpretation.it is always up to the GM, though your quote only states full damage but says nothing about bypassing hardness.You are all assuming that acid splash doesn't by pass hardness which is entirely up to the DM as per the rules. I would rule acid splash would burn right through a low grade lock with a few shots and could even burn through harder metals if enough damage is done. It is up to the DM so you decide how want acid splash to work.
Each object has hardness—a number that
represents how well it resists damage. When an object is
damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only
damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object’s
hit points (see Table 7–12, Table 7–13, and Table 7–14).
Hit Points: An object’s hit point total depends on what
it is made of and how big it is (see Table 7–12, Table 7–13,
and Table 7–14). Objects that take damage equal to or greater
than half their total hit points gain the broken condition (see
Appendix 2). When an object’s hit points reach 0, it’s ruined.
Very large objects have separate hit point totals for
different sections.
Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to
most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the
object’s hardness.
well it is in the same paragraph as the energy damage dealing half damage, it is not a part where they discuss hardness. that interpretation seems more like an attempt to read more into something that is not.
well it is in the same paragraph as the energy damage dealing half damage, it is not a part where they discuss hardness. that interpretation seems more like an attempt to read more into something that is not.
That's for the GM to decide isn't it though?
I started this thread to ask other GMs of the forums if making such a ruling could be considered a reasonable one.
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You are more liekly to hinder disable device with acid. It would essentially break the lock, but maybe not in a way that makes it open.I'd argue for an adhoc type of rule.
Using acid on the lock might not always work they way you would want. I'd suggest that for avery point of damage you got some sort of bonus to your disable device roll.
perhaps +3/1 point(s) of damage.
That is true, but breaking the lock sometimes is a valid way of getting past it.
The problem with creating rules like the one I propose is that it creates another layer of rules to a system that is otherwise simple. Unless your creating a campaign that is rogue focused, I don't think that you really need to go down this road.
If you think that this creates a problem, don't go down this road. If you want to have a game like "Burn Notice" where a "Michael Westin" type rogue figures out how to get around security features with his wits and improvisation, then my suggestion would be for the DM to learn to improvise a little. Reward your player if the character is being resourceful, but let the player know that you don't allow "one trick ponies".
Some locks might have counter messures. Some might have some kind of alchemical oil to prevent corrosion. If the thief exists in a world where he could concive a solution using acid like that, there are people who have thought a way to prevent just such a thing.
In the end, it's whats right for the people in the game.
One of our players wants his rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster to be able to use his at-will acid splash cantrip as a utility spell of sorts, using it to slowly and silently eat away at anything from rope, to locks, to manacles.
Now, it does a measly 1d3 damage, which will never get past the hardness of anything, and may even be halved beforehand (making non-combat applications positively useless). Using the blurb about certain energy types being more effective against certain materials, do you think it reasonable to say that acid ignores the hardness and deals full damage against things like metal and rope, but not things like glass?
Also, I heard that sneak attack now applies to constructs and undead...is it possible we could apply it to objects now too? That would go a long way towards helping the party trickster melt through locks, manacles, and the like.
He could use it to eat through hardness 0 items (rope, paper and cloth) but nothing else. It would be a GM call on other materials though, as there are specific acids for organic materials and inorganic materials.