Limits of Leadership


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

The general question is how loyal are followers gained from Leadership?

In specific, how would followers react in the following situations:

Would a follower act against alignment if ordered? (Are followers of different alignments even recruited?)

    Would any of the following cause a follower to abandon or go against his leader?
  • Being led into situations where he's clearly outmatched.
  • As an extrapolation of the above, is fear or superstition enough?
  • Abuse
  • Bribery

Note: I'm not talking about cohorts, I'm talking followers other than the cohort.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

From what I recall, at least in 3.5, followers had NPC classes and non-heroic stats. They were also pretty much treated as more loyal hirelings.

Personally if I were the GM I'd modify the character's leadership rating (for followers) every time he does something that the followers might have issues with. Then when his leadership score decreases he looses followers such that he has a number in line with his new score.

Having Followers act against alignment would definitely cause a penalty if it occurred often enough. Being led into a situation where they're over matched would probably "cause the death of a follower" and that one's right on the table.
Abuse is also on the table, and as for bribery that one pretty much amounts to GM fiat, so use it carefully.

I've always seen followers as more a mob of nameless/faceless NPCs than a collection of individuals, and treating them as a mob makes adjudicating things like this easier. YMMV, especially if you have players that want to get into the minutiae of having their own band of lvl 1 warriors and experts.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Tom Baumbach wrote:
  • Being led into situations where he's clearly outmatched.
  • Once? You're getting by on loyalty and charisma. If it doesn't pay off, suddenly a bunch of followers go away because the leader gets a leadership penalty for a reputation for failure, and possibly aloofness or cruelty depending on how and why he lead his followers into an outmatched situation. Plus, there's a penalty for leading followers to their death.

    Quote:
  • Abuse
  • And this is definitely a reputation for cruelty.

    There's a list of situational modifiers to Leadership in the 3e DMGs. They're in the 3.5 SRD here.


    Tom Baumbach wrote:

    The general question is how loyal are followers gained from Leadership?

    In specific, how would followers react in the following situations:

    Would a follower act against alignment if ordered? (Are followers of different alignments even recruited?)

    This happens all the time. many people just call it following orders. it's more about how often and how much it is against their alignment.

    Quote:
      Would any of the following cause a follower to abandon or go against his leader?
    • Being led into situations where he's clearly outmatched.

    This happens a lot as well. most people in real life find strength in following along with a group, particularilly armies which foster a strong comraderie. still, fear is fear, and sending a lone torchbearer against an ogre as a distraction will probably be met with a 'up yours' reply in short order.

    Quote:
  • As an extrapolation of the above, is fear or superstition enough?
  • If you can intimidate them to the point where they would take certain death style risks then..i guess..yes

    Quote:
  • Abuse
  • see above. though add a +4 circumstance modifier to the intimidate check.

    Quote:
  • Bribery
  • a bribe might be diplomacy rather than intimidate.

    Quote:
    Note: I'm not talking about cohorts, I'm talking followers other than the cohort.

    followers are more rank and file. i can see no reason that any follower, without additional motivation, would willingly act outside his accepted role. a midwife follower would have less willingness to take up arms against a Gnoll than a hired warrior.

    a combination of diplomacy and intimidate may be required to get followers to do, unnuusal tasks, and even then there is no expectation of competency 9which may act as a circumstance penalty)

    Batts

    Silver Crusade

    I have always seen followers as devoted and loyal to the point that anyone would be to a leader. If the leader is respected and treats his followers appropriately, I see no reason why he should doubt their loyalty or have them doubt their devotion.

    Try and think of the people you are loyal too and why? Who would you follow without question and why? The same goes for followers, if they respect the PC and are willing to make sacrifices for him then this would only extend as far as the treatment they receive.

    If they are treated poorly (abused for example) they are probably not going to stick around and fight for the PC. In fact, they'd probably do a midnight run.

    As for bribery, I would say that the PC could expect the stakes to be higher and they wouldn't turn on him for a gold piece. I have always seen followers joining the PC out of loyalty and a willingness to follow him. They are probably more than just the run of the mill guard or soldier, for example.

    I would say that a follower could turn on a PC, but the chances should be a lot lower than usual. He would have to treat them poorly or the bribe would have to be an impressive amount (from the follower's perspective) to prove disloyal.

    However, literature is full of weak or mislead characters. Imagine a follower who takes a bribe or fails the PC out of love and betrays him. Guilty, he tries to make amends for his failure and regain the PCs trust in him again. He might go from being a follower to an NPC and play a more significant part in the campaign?

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