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Monk / duelist?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


a monk wielding a single siangham can qualify (and benefit?) from the duelist presitge class by 8th level.

a) you'll get Dex, Int, Wis (and an extra +2) to AC. In a 20-point buy, you could go Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8 before modifiers. Both elf or dwarf looks pretty good on top of that. Say, dwarf, and go Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 6.
b) you get two-weapon fighting from flurry of blows _and_ that sweet duelist precision damage that you only get if you wield a single weapon. Since duelist is fullbab you're only losing one last flurry attack from the monk progression.
c) you puts your cash into your magic weapon and your armor bracers, and you don't have to splurge on that amulet of mighty fists
d) to qualify, Dodge and Mobility you can get from your monk bonus feats, you only need to outlay Weapon Finesse (which you'd take anyway, due to low Strength). You could go Improved Initiative and Spring Attack, both of which are quite decent feats.

1st Improved Initiative
2nd (B) Dodge
3rd Weapon Finesse
5th Weapon Focus (siangham)
6th (B) Mobility
7th Spring Attack
9th (be a duelist, maybe Vital Strike?)

that seem crazy to anybody?


I've been considering something similar.

If I recall correctly, there was a feat in 3.5 that allowed you to treat unarmed as a piercing weapon. If your DM allowed that, you could even make do without the Siangham.

Andoran

Interesting, to be sure. I've been toying with the idea of mixing Paladin and Duelist, myself, maybe with a bit of Rogue to boot.


That was a villian in my Eberron compaign, though that was with the slightly stringer 3.5 duelist.

AC 52 was a chellenge for even 17th level characters. The Shifter-monk so very much wanted to have a match with him again...


cool. however, this is what I get when I post at 4 in the morning.

a) my sample build (I...think his name is Yugi Invictus) has 22 points, not 20. He should be Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 5. Methinks he'll take ranks in Perform (comedy), because screwing up a comedy routine can be just as funny as nailing one.
b) he's got an extra bonus feat at 1st level, although all the choices are things he'll eventually get as a duelist. Throw Anything?
c) A duelist gets his precision damage with a thrown light or one-handed piercing weapon (shortspear, starknife, trident, or, say, an improvised siangham), correct? I think I'll go with starknife for that oversized shuriken kind of look.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rufus Reeven wrote:

I've been considering something similar.

If I recall correctly, there was a feat in 3.5 that allowed you to treat unarmed as a piercing weapon. If your DM allowed that, you could even make do without the Siangham.

Versatile unarmed strike, lets you choose wether your unarmed attack does blunt, slashing, or peircing damage.

Now it coudl be interpreted that he is not wielding a piercing weapon, he is using an unarmed attack that does piercing damage. GM's could interpret it either way.


ohako wrote:
He should be Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 5.

THREADJACK: The current batch of characters for the group I'm DMing have all dumped Cha into the pits. I get sick of Cha being the default consequence-free dump stat. I'm going to start applying the party's combined Cha modifiers to Diplomacy checks, not just the speaker's.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
ohako wrote:
He should be Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 5.
THREADJACK: The current batch of characters for the group I'm DMing have all dumped Cha into the pits. I get sick of Cha being the default consequence-free dump stat. I'm going to start applying the party's combined Cha modifiers to Diplomacy checks, not just the speaker's.

You know Kirth, I HIGHLY doubt that anybody really wants to dump cha. I know I sure as hell don't want to. But the system promotes putting crap scores into it because that's the only way non-cha based characters can effectively get the stats they need.

[/rant]

Sorry, the whole stat system gives me a headache.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
ohako wrote:
He should be Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 5.
THREADJACK: The current batch of characters for the group I'm DMing have all dumped Cha into the pits. I get sick of Cha being the default consequence-free dump stat. I'm going to start applying the party's combined Cha modifiers to Diplomacy checks, not just the speaker's.

Heck, CHA is actually one of the most valuable stats in the game. Just provide more encounters where they would either want to have higher CHA (the nymphs put them all to sleep in the spiders lair because they found nobody interesting enough talk with), want a charisma based class (sonic mind-affecting abilities, items usable only by spont arcane casters, etc.), or could get out of with a sufficient diplomacy check (each person must talk and testify, but if someone flubs it, they ALL must fight).


yeaahh, I very rarely make characters that dump Charisma that low. Playing a dwarf I think tends to encourage that. Honestly my opinion is that if I want to be suave and debonair and diplomatic and all that (which I prefer to playing 'Mercenary X'), and I've gone and dumped Charisma in the toilet, then I'm going to roll that d20 and take my crap result, and I'm going to like it.

so yeah, the duelist has 2 charisma-based skills, out of 6 class skills. Playing a monk with 6 skill points per level, I figure what the heck, let's do the duelist skill thing. So, that gives Yugi here a starting Bluff of -2. So, and this is just play style I guess, but if I've trained in a skill, I'm going to _use_ that skill, and fail hilariously at it.

Anyway, here's a question: should a duelist be able to use the feat Strike Back combined with his class feature Riposte? It's not really RAW, but I think it's really thematically appropriate. What do you think?


Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Heck, CHA is actually one of the most valuable stats in the game. Just provide more encounters where they would either want to have higher CHA (the nymphs put them all to sleep in the spiders lair because they found nobody interesting enough talk with), want a charisma based class (sonic mind-affecting abilities, items usable only by spont arcane casters, etc.), or could get out of with a sufficient diplomacy check...

The problem is that the rules themselves are written so that you can have on designated social guy for the whole party (18 Cha, good skills), and then all the other characters can dump Cha down to 3, and you're better off than if everyone had a 14. Which is why I might houserule that party diplomacy checks use the total combined Cha modifier.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
The problem is that the rules themselves are written so that you can have on designated social guy for the whole party (18 Cha, good skills), and then all the other characters can dump Cha down to 3, and you're better off than if everyone had a 14. Which is why I might houserule that party diplomacy checks use the total combined Cha modifier.

True, but that party would be worse off in any of the games I currently play in. Also, my friends don't allow any bonus pts lower than 8, so the lowest CHA we ever tend to see is a 6.

And do we ever put that CHA 6 character through heck! Heckled all the time, denied rooms at inns, accused of being a villan. Yes, the more CHA party members are always speaking up for them, but they also aren't always around. Nothing like bailing the dearven barb out of jail because a bar fight took place NEAR where he was (he just kept drinking, and got arrested and billed for damage!).


Yeah, it can be compensated for, as most things can, but it's just yet another example of where I wish the rules themselves prevented abuse and inequity, instead of forcing me to look for it and counteract it myself.


I dunno about that, Kirth, really.

If I have a Str 5 or Dex 5 character, he's going to get roughed up kind of a lot, because you know? There's a whole chapter on _combat_ in the core book. One would think that running around in a combat zone with barely enough strength to lift a wet pretzel would do that to you.

On the flip side, there is not a whole chapter in there about social encounters, nor does a character's...BsB (Base Social Bonus?) go up according to some hit die. Instead, there's, you know, roleplaying. If I ever get around to running this character (I mean, he's Jackie Chan meets Inigo Montoya meets a Scottish accent, of course I would play that!), then I'm going to take that 5 Cha and go all Hollywood with it. Sort of a Miss Piggy or Spencer Pratt twist, I guess.

Or hey, you know? Go for the direct route. He's _really_ vulnerable to Cha damage, which I guess means assassins blowing ungol dust around everywhere, or legions of mummies. That seems to me to be the most direct way for a DM to exploit a 5 Cha.

Honestly, yeah, having a 5 or a 7 in any stat _hurts_, in a way that going all 12s just doesn't. It's just a matter of figuring out how to twist the knife.


THREADJACK BACK?

Okay, so far to get to duelist, the feat chain is something like

1st Improved Initiative
1st (B) Stunning Fist
1st (B) Improved Unarmed Strike
1st (B) Dodge
2nd (B) Throw Anything
3rd Weapon Finesse
5th Weapon Focus (siangham)
6th (B) Mobility
7th Spring Attack

So far so good, I think. Now, once he gets to duelist feats get rarer and rarer, but there are some bonuses thrown in, not to mention some freebie 'feats' the duelist gets, like extra initiative, mobility dodge bonuses, free reflex boost, etc.

9th --
11th --
12th (B) Combat Reflexes
13th --
15th --
17th --
17th (B) Deflect Arrows
19th --

Another 6 slots open. Possibilities that I've thought of are

Vital Strike (not sure about this one, precision damage isn't doubled...I guess it's a lot better for a straight monk)
Nimble Moves
Acrobatic Steps (not sure if it's needed with acrobatic charge)
Step Up
Strike Back (not sure if this even works with the riposte class feature...it should, but...)
Stand Still
Snatch Arrows (not sure if this is any good at 17th+ level)
Improved Critical (siangham)
Critical Focus (how good is this?)
Combat Expertise (doesn't work with elaborate defense, so meh)
Lightning Reflexes

Golarion-specific choices might be

Cornugon Stun
Hamatula Strike (if I had taken Improved Grapple instead of Throw Anything as a bonus at 2nd level)
Hamatula Grasp

so, what do you think? I think monk/duelist is a seriously winning combination (see above), now I just have to decide on a feat chain. Thanks in advance.

Lantern Lodge

What about taking the style feat snake style. Gives you piercing dmg and offered you a 2nd option for avoiding attacks using sense motive.


Super thread necro!

But yes, Snake Style would work for unarmed. I'd use Master of Many Styles as the base and do a Crane/Snake combo. Duelist is still a very poor class, but this at least optimizes it a bit, especially if you can use either Guided weapon property or the Agile weapon property to reduce stat needs to Wis/Dex/Int/Con.

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