Girls like swarms of lizards, right? - Spider swarm craziness


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Malisteen wrote:
Easily. Just look at the amount of effort people are expecting the first level party to put into fighting them. The party is supposed to go in knowing they'll fight them, with spells and expensive expendable items specifically chosen and prepared to fight them despite the fact that casters have very few spells at this level (including spells known for arcane casters - is every sorcerer supposed to pick burning hands as their only first level spell? Even wizards only start with three in their spellbooks) and characters in general have notably limited funds after buying basic equipment. And the DM is also supposed to give them favorable conditions, with areas of water and sources of fire to help.

1) The Wiz with inly 3 1st level spells has an INT of 11, which is highly unlikely unless they are a masochist.

2) Flasks of oil and torches are enouch, and they are very cheap. Like the Joker said about gasoline. And they are pretty much standard equipment.
3) There is no need for areas of water or sources of fire to fight a swarm.

Malisteen wrote:
And even then, it's a hard fight, with difficult hit rolls on alchemical items, and the area spell the casters are supposed to use requires them to be practically in melee with a monster that can give them two chances to fail at casting a spell just by standing on them, and the party tank can't prevent that movement with AoO's since the monster is immune to weapon damage. It can move at full speed and still get it's full offensive abilities, making it faster then the party as well.

1) Swarms cannot take AoO, so the casters can just stand next to them and cast away. If they get caught inside, they walk out and cast away.

2) Torches deal 1d3 damage to swarms, and the swarm provokes an AoO every time it moves into the PC's square to attack, thus potentially doubling the number of attacks the party will get.
3) Mindless vermin are unlikely to follow a fleeing party, even for food. If you run the swarm like a gobblin, then it will be a bit harder. But at speed 20, I doubt that the party will be unable to flee, unless they are all armored gnomes and halflings.

Malisteen wrote:
So it's a hard fight even with preparation where the party is expected to be willing to consume a fair chunk of both their renewable and non-renewable resources. That sounds like the description of a fight with a CR one, probably even two levels above the party. Remember, enemies a couple CR points above the party's level are supposed to be hard, not impossible - the kind of fight you might have to run away from if you aren't prepared for. Just like a Spider Swarm is for an average first level party.

But at CR 2, the swarm is a pushover. It's not that hard a fight at level 1, but does take some of the party resources, so it's not a pushover fight. Frankly, 4 kobolds have a better chance of TPKing a 1st level party than the spider swarm does, and their XP value is identical.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Mirror, Mirror wrote:
stuff

Three spells known, d3 damage was a 3.5 rule, why wouldn't spiders follow prey?


A Man In Black wrote:
Three spells known,

Wrong again:

PRD wrote:
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his prohibited schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook.
A Man In Black wrote:
d3 damage was a 3.5 rule,

That was covered earlier. The swarm vulnerabilities omitted from PF from 3.5 will be added back in, per Jason.

A Man In Black wrote:
why wouldn't spiders follow prey?

Besides the fact they would be abandoning their lair? How about spiders have a territory that they will defend, but not pursue prey outside of? But, for the sake of argument, let's say they did give chase. How long? The PC's can run for a while, and spd 20 means the swarm will fall behind. Will they follow them across the Anauroch? Arounf the Sea of Silt? Up the slopes of Mt Nevermind? You tell me, what is reasonable, and what is the GM just being a prick?

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Wrong again:

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

Quote:
That was covered earlier. The swarm vulnerabilities omitted from PF from 3.5 will be added back in, per Jason.

Cool. src plz? I'm curious what's making it into Bestiary errata.

Quote:
Besides the fact they would be abandoning their lair? How about spiders have a territory that they will defend, but not pursue prey outside of? But, for the sake of argument, let's say they did give chase. How long? The PC's can run for a while, and spd 20 means the swarm will fall behind. Will they follow them across the Anauroch? Arounf the Sea of Silt? Up the slopes of Mt Nevermind? You tell me, what is reasonable, and what is the GM just being a prick?

I can make stuff up too. Spiders are vulnerable to the color blue, so the party just wears blue cloaks. In the meantime, the Bestiary description doesn't say anything about spider swarms not chasing helpless prey away from their lairs.

And really, all the spiders need is 3-4 turns on a target to start killing people, so a single nauseate is at least half of that. A creature that a non-forewarned party turns and sprints away from, possibly losing a party member to bad luck even then, should have CR higher than the party's level, no?


A Man In Black wrote:
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuh.

You said it, not me ^__^

A Man In Black wrote:

I can make stuff up too. Spiders are vulnerable to the color blue, so the party just wears blue cloaks. In the meantime, the Bestiary description doesn't say anything about spider swarms not chasing helpless prey away from their lairs.

And really, all the spiders need is 3-4 turns on a target to start killing people, so a single nauseate is at least half of that. A creature that a non-forewarned party turns and sprints away from, possibly losing a party member to bad luck even then, should have CR higher than the party's level, no?

First, you never answered my question, so I will assume you yourself have no idea how far a swarm will chase a party.

Second, where is this nauseate thing coming from? That is neither an ability of the spider swarm, nor swarms in general, nor vermin. Please point it out, if you would.

And, my bad, that was James, not Jason.
link

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Mirror, Mirror wrote:
First, you never answered my question, so I will assume you yourself have no idea how far a swarm will chase a party.

Exactly as far as it can. This is going to range from taking some damage and running like hell, to TPK, depending on whether the party can reasonably escape. The example was the party being dropped into a spider swarm in a dungeon, a la Raiders of the Lost Ark; I realized very quickly that a spider swarm + no place to run = TPK and didn't do that, then came to the forums to wonder aloud WTF was up with weapon-immune CR 1 swarms.

Quote:
Second, where is this nauseate thing coming from? That is neither an ability of the spider swarm, nor swarms in general, nor vermin. Please point it out, if you would.

Here you go. It's a swarms in general thing; they all get Distraction.


A Man In Black wrote:

Exactly as far as it can. This is going to range from taking some damage and running like hell, to TPK, depending on whether the party can reasonably escape. The example was the party being dropped into a spider swarm in a dungeon, a la Raiders of the Lost Ark; I realized very quickly that a spider swarm + no place to run = TPK and didn't do that, then came to the forums to wonder aloud WTF was up with weapon-immune CR 1 swarms.

Thanks for the link. DC 11 is not that big a deal, and the effect only lasts for 1 round. Not exactly a TPK situation.

And this arguing over swarms chasing people is pointless if there is no place to run. Now, did they drop a torch down the hole like Indy did? If it's a trap, then it's a nasty trap. And if they have so equipment to fight a swarm, then even more so. However, 4 kobolds can kill a party more reliably, and they count as CR 1, so I am missing the point, except that dropping an unprepared party into a fight with a creature with only specific vulnerabilities results in TPK. This is not a flaw in the CR system, but it IS a flaw in the dungeon. And you caught it, so good job.

Spider swarms, under not so adverse conditions, are perfectly reasonable CR 1 creatures.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Thanks for the link. DC 11 is not that big a deal, and the effect only lasts for 1 round. Not exactly a TPK situation.

Okay. 10 HP is a reasonable amount at level 1 for a d6 or d8 class. You encounter spiders, they stand on you, 3.5 damage. You fail a save, move your speed, they stand on you again, 3.5 damage. If you don't have 30' move or somewhere to go that's more than 80' away or fail your save again, you fall down and get eaten by spiders.

When fort save bonuses are going to range between +2 and +6 at this level, DC 11 is going to fail a good chunk of the time.

Quote:
And this arguing over swarms chasing people is pointless if there is no place to run. Now, did they drop a torch down the hole like Indy did? If it's a trap, then it's a nasty trap.

It's not a trap. The whole point was that they were going to get chucked into the dungeon with the badguys outside and have to make their escape. You've seen Raiders of the Lost Ark, right?

Quote:
However, 4 kobolds can kill a party more reliably, and they count as CR 1, so I am missing the point, except that dropping an unprepared party into a fight with a creature with only specific vulnerabilities results in TPK. This is not a flaw in the CR system, but it IS a flaw in the dungeon. And you caught it, so good job.

No, I'd say it's a flaw in the CR system to make a monster for beginning players as well as beginning characters that only has specific vulnerabilities. And incidentally? I ended up putting them against the equivalent of four kobalds, in four smallish monstrous spiders, and it turned out to work nicely.


A Man In Black wrote:

Okay. 10 HP is a reasonable amount at level 1 for a d6 or d8 class. You encounter spiders, they stand on you, 3.5 damage. You fail a save, move your speed, they stand on you again, 3.5 damage. If you don't have 30' move or somewhere to go that's more than 80' away or fail your save again, you fall down and get eaten by spiders.

When fort save bonuses are going to range between +2 and +6 at this level, DC 11 is going to fail a good chunk of the time.

First, what are the other 3 party members doing? Do they have torches? And since the spider provokes an AoO every time it attacks, it actually behooves the party to have the FIGHTER taking the hit. What a novel concept...

A Man In Black wrote:
It's not a trap. The whole point was that they were going to get chucked into the dungeon with the badguys outside and have to make their escape. You've seen Raiders of the Lost Ark, right?

You mean the scene where they unearth the entrance to the underground temple and Indy throws a torch down, looks at the slithering floor and says "Snakes. I hate snakes."? No, must have missed that one. My point stands.

A Man In Black wrote:
No, I'd say it's a flaw in the CR system to make a monster for beginning players as well as beginning characters that only has specific vulnerabilities. And incidentally? I ended up putting them against the equivalent of four kobalds, in four smallish monstrous spiders, and it turned out to work nicely.

Beninning players don't run adventures. GM's do. If the GM is inexperienced and throws something at the party that they can't handle, that is an issue. However, having fought Ogres at level 2 in high school games, I know that an inexperienced GM killing the party is NOT all that unusual. You can't (pardon the expression) child-proof this.

And kobolds are fun to use precicely because they are only as challenging as the GM wishes them to be. There's just less wiggle-roon for swarms.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Mirror, Mirror wrote:
First, what are the other 3 party members doing? Do they have torches? And since the spider provokes an AoO every time it attacks, it actually behooves the party to have the FIGHTER taking the hit. What a novel concept...

Yeah, the fighter just spams taunt! :|

I'm criticizing the swarm as written. Since the only suggestion from Paizo so far is "Oh, that doesn't look right, we'll fix it someday," it's still broken. Since the AoOs do no damage, the spiders stand on whoever's closest, possibly two people since they cover an area. What is the fighter doing to attract their attention?

Also, even if you do use the 3.5 rules, it's still pretty ridiculous because you're looking at taking two rounds of spider bites before getting the torches lit. Then you start crisping spiders but someone's one hit away from dead.

Quote:
Beninning players don't run adventures. GM's do. If the GM is inexperienced and throws something at the party that they can't handle, that is an issue.

CR 1 means "A level 1 party should be able to handle this." A CR 1 that many level 1 parties cannot handle is a bad CR 1.


A Man In Black wrote:

I'm criticizing the swarm as written. Since the only suggestion from Paizo so far is "Oh, that doesn't look right, we'll fix it someday," it's still broken. Since the AoOs do no damage, the spiders stand on whoever's closest, possibly two people since they cover an area. What is the fighter doing to attract their attention?

Also, even if you do use the 3.5 rules, it's still pretty ridiculous because you're looking at taking two rounds of spider bites before getting the torches lit. Then you start crisping spiders but someone's one hit away from dead.

CR 1 means "A level 1 party should be able to handle this." A CR 1 that many level 1 parties cannot handle is a bad CR 1.

The swarm as written has already been admitted to have left something out. Hey, YOU WIN! Well, aren't you special!

Since the party likely starts out with lit torches, your next statement makes no sense. Notice the darkvision and tremorsense? I bet these guys like it dark and underground, what do you think? Dark + underground = torches already lit.

And, since it has been pointed out that a level 1 party CAN, in fact, handle the swarm, the CR is appropriate. If the torches fix had not been included, and if oil did not have the ability to burn anything in it's square without hitting, than you would have a vary valid point. As it is, the spider swarm is on the high end of CR 1. However, kobolds are on the high end of CR 1/4, so why not complain about them?

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Mirror, Mirror wrote:
The swarm as written has already been admitted to have left something out. Hey, YOU WIN! Well, aren't you special!

My goal is to get Paizo to fix the various Damn Crabs in the Bestiary. I'll cheerfully shut up about any given case when it's fixed. Also, where was the bit where you showed me how the fighter tanked a swarm?

Quote:
Since the party likely starts out with lit torches, your next statement makes no sense. Notice the darkvision and tremorsense? I bet these guys like it dark and underground, what do you think? Dark + underground = torches already lit.

One of the neat things about the Bestiary is that they actually have sane environments for their monsters, since they had the writers go ahead and do that research. As it happens, the spider swarm's environment is in forests, because that's where spiders of this sort actually live. Generally, unless it's the nighttime or the party has intentions of arson, one does not travel through forests with lit torches.

Quote:
And, since it has been pointed out that a level 1 party CAN, in fact, handle the swarm, the CR is appropriate. If the torches fix had not been included, and if oil did not have the ability to burn anything in it's square without hitting, than you would have a vary valid point. As it is, the spider swarm is on the high end of CR 1.

A level 1 party CAN, in fact, handle a werewolf. They likely to need special preparation and incur significant risk of PC death, and it may very well be a complete TPK if they aren't prepared or the circumstances are in any way not favorable to them.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Scarab Sages

A Man In Black wrote:

The second in a series.

So, I was fooling around with a low-level adventure for a new-ish group, and I figured I'd drop them into a tomb with swarms of crawly things to set the mood. It works for Indiana Jones, right?

Holy cow spider swarms are nuts at first level. What is a first-level party supposed to do against this? It moves faster than they do, it takes away your action at least a quarter of the time, and if you don't have at least two flasks of acid (expensive for a first-level character) or an evil cleric, they just swarm over you and eat you to death. You can't run away from them because they move 80' a turn (and laugh at your AoOs), and you can't fight them because they're immune to everything. Even if you beat the swarm with a torch AND rule that a torch's fire damage can hurt them, they eat anyone who tries that in short order.

How is this an appropriate challenge for a first-level group?

One of my old girlfriends broke the DM's braim by summoning a swarm of kittes!! she said they didnt over-power anything and reall its just for flavour they do what any other swarm does...Cat Scratch Fevour!!!!


aku wrote:


One of my old girlfriends broke the DM's braim by summoning a swarm of kittes!! she said they didnt over-power anything and reall its just for flavour they do what any other swarm does...Cat Scratch Fevour!!!!

That reminds me: a rat swarm is supposedly CR 2, but it's worse in practically every way to a CR 1 spider swarm (and so much worse than a CR 2 bat swarm that it's not even funny). The only real advantage the rats have over the spiders is 16 hp instead of 9 hp, which is nothing compared to weapon immunity.


A Man In Black wrote:

One of the neat things about the Bestiary is that they actually have sane environments for their monsters, since they had the writers go ahead and do that research. As it happens, the spider swarm's environment is in forests, because that's where spiders of this sort actually live. Generally, unless it's the nighttime or the party has intentions of arson, one does not travel through forests with lit torches.

Well, the underground pit ala Indiana Jones was YOUR idea. In a forest, you can withdraw and re-group. Besides, in a forest there would be a spotting distance, signs in the trees that a spider swarm lives there, etc, so the encounter would not be out of the blue. The ranger/druid/barb can tell the party deadly spiders are in the area, and they have the chance to prepare.

So let's stop with all the circular arguments. I say run/regroup, you say underground pit, I say torches, you say forest. This is getting nowhere.

As an aside, the 1st level party in the game I am playing in (we are 5th now, but WHEN we were 1st...) would have been composed of a monk, an archer, a druid, and a sorceress. Sorc has gold dragon bloodline, and so has the burning hands spell. Druid has produce flame as a standard damage spell. We would have completly destroyed the swarm, even caught unawares. This is far from the optimal party.

Basically, with so many ways to neutralize a spider swarm, and the low hp of the creature, I do not see CR 1 being all that bad. If you want to argue, like hogarth, thet the rat swarm is underpowered, then I will wholeheartedly agree. I can't see a good use for them outside a swamp or other watery environment, and even then a bat swarm is more impressive.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Basically, with so many ways to neutralize a spider swarm, and the low hp of the creature, I do not see CR 1 being all that bad. If you want to argue, like hogarth, thet the rat swarm is underpowered, then I will wholeheartedly agree. I can't see a good use for them outside a swamp or other watery environment, and even then a bat swarm is more impressive.

"So many ways" consisting of alchemist's fire or oil or GM fiat.


A Man In Black wrote:
"So many ways" consisting of alchemist's fire or oil or GM fiat.

Or running past, or torches, or spells. Are you even reading these posts? IF you had mentioned all of these, you might have still been able to make a point. Consistantly disregarding inconvenient facts is a sure sign of a weak argument, so says American Skeptic.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Here are some ideas on how to use a Spider Swarm despite the severe danger they present to a 1st level party which isn't seriously prepped.

Method 1: Have Them Flee from Fire!

Keep in mind, most swarms which don't have hive minds are made up of a multitude of tiny individuals who individually don't want to die. It is not unreasonable for a swarm of spiders go into retreat when confronted by a blast of fire or a puddle of blazing oil because a couple thousand spiders decide, "Oh my crap! Everything's burning! I don't wanna die!"

Even mindless creatures usually have a survival instinct, and aren't willing to die over a meal; let alone die so their surviving neighbors get a meal.*

Method 2: Raise the CR.

Call them a CR 2. Most published adventures, and at least the 3.5 DMG assume that the PCs will hit encounters a CR or 2 above their level a couple of times in the adventure. This won't actually make them easier for the party to survive, but means the PCs will be getting what you deem proper XP for getting through it.

Method 3: Change the Swarm into an Environmental Hazard

Certain living things like Green Slime and certain Molds are considered hazards rather than creatures in D20. Keep their damage values, their poison ability, and their distraction ability, but take away their ability to move from the location (due to, say, the spiders' disinclination to leave their territory,) and place them to blockade somewhere the PCs need to go. If you say these spiders don't have a fantasyish ability to digest meat, that's a perfectly good reason for them not to give chase. They're just defending turf, not looking for a human happy meal. Suddenly, you have a perfectly appropriate environmental challenge for the PCs to figure out clever ways past. You might want to disallow torch-swinging in this instance, or give a consequence for trying such tacts, such as the swarm attacking adjacent squares, or the PCs may well try and poke the hazard to death instead of being clever and derring-do-ish.

* Social insects with a strong communal instinct may be an exception, but even these creatures will avoid fire or smoke as bad propositions.

====

Mind you, this doesn't solve the debated problem that spider swarms are under-CR'd. (I still haven't made up my mind on that. How's a Spider Swarm stand up to a 2nd level party?) This is all just me trying to be helpful and find ways to include a swarm of dangerous spiders into your game.

Cheers!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Wait... I thought we were talking about spiders.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Drakli wrote:
[in reply to AMIB's mispost, now deleted] Wait... I thought we were talking about spiders.

You're right. Stupid Paizo boards. By the way? Your ideas about spider swarms are good ones.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

A Man In Black wrote:
Drakli wrote:
[in reply to AMIB's mispost, now deleted] Wait... I thought we were talking about spiders.
You're right. Stupid Paizo boards. By the way? Your ideas about spider swarms are good ones.

Yeah, which thread is that actually from? So I can move my reply too. ;) I have a tendency to pop open all the threads with new posts in tabs, then go through what's actually new without reading the backlog... so I missed which one I was responding to. Huzzah!

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Or running past, or torches, or spells. Are you even reading these posts? IF you had mentioned all of these, you might have still been able to make a point. Consistantly disregarding inconvenient facts is a sure sign of a weak argument, so says American Skeptic.

Respectively:

Running past is GM fiat; you're assuming the GM left an escape route. The party can run away from a werewolf, too.

Quote:
Also, even if you do use the 3.5 rules, it's still pretty ridiculous because you're looking at taking two rounds of spider bites before getting the torches lit. Then you start crisping spiders but someone's one hit away from dead.
Quote:
[Burning Hands] does 3.75 damage to it on average. Even if a wizard has two casts of it prepped, it may not be enough to kill the swarm.

Your claims are not facts in evidence.

Also, tejón? It was the how is the fighter better thread.


I think this has already been settled. All parties must have at least one character with at least 1 level in alchemist in case of spider swarms. Problem solved...

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Kolokotroni wrote:
I think this has already been settled. All parties must have at least one character with at least 1 level in alchemist in case of spider swarms. Problem solved...

That class is Monk 2.0. It makes me sad. This is derailing, however...


A Man In Black wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
I think this has already been settled. All parties must have at least one character with at least 1 level in alchemist in case of spider swarms. Problem solved...
That class is Monk 2.0. It makes me sad. This is derailing, however...

Is there really anywhere left to go with this one? What is left to say? I dont think you can derail a train that has already arrived in the train yard and been de-commissioned.

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