I am trying to clear up some confusion regarding grappling in the Pathfinder RPG. When an attacker has succeeded in grappling his opponent, the rules list several option the attacker has in the following rounds. Each of these requires a successful grapple check. However, what about multiple natural attacks? One of the options listed is "damage" with one single natural attack or light or one-handed weapon. This method requires a grapple check (with a +5 bonus) to succeed, though, not a normal attack roll. Still, the grappled condition also says you get a -2 penalty to attack rolls when grappled, so I guess you are still able to make attacks using normal attack rolls, but it seems that being able to make a grapple check at +5 instead is usually an advantage. It might not be however against opponents with a high CMD. I'm not really clear about the use of multiple natural weapons while in a grapple.
So, here is an example: a wyvern has the following natural attacks: bite (with grab special ability), sting, 2 wings. it also has the rake ability with two talon attacks. A combat with a wyvern might look as follows:
First Round:
If the wyvern is already threatening an opponent at the start of its turn, it attacks with a full attack (i.e. bite, sting, 2 wings). We assume the bite attack hits, the wyvern deals bite damage and then gets to initiate a grapple as a free action. It might also hit with the other attacks and deal the appropriate damage, but this is not relevant at this point. If the wyvern doesn't threaten an opponent at the start of its turn, it flies up to an opponent using a move or charge action as appropriate and then makes a single bite attack. Again, we assume the bite attack hits, the wyvern deals bite damage and then gets to initiate a grapple as a free action. In both cases, we assume the wyvern succeeds at this grapple check. Both the wyvern and the opponent gain the grappled condition.
A question arises on the order or attacks. If the wyvern attacks with the bite attack first and succeeds at establishing a grapple, it gains the grappled condition, which seems to preclude a full attack, so it would not be able to follow up with its remaining attacks. In order to both make a full attack and establish a grapple, the wyvern would have to attack with its bite attack last. It cannot, in this way, first hold the opponent with its bite attack and then try to poison him with its sting attack while he is being held.
On the his turn, the opponent tries to escape the grapple, but fails.
Following Rounds:
The wyvern now has several options of attacking the opponent. This is my interpretation of what is possible.
1) Make a full attack: to make use of its poison sting, it can make a full attack (bite, sting, 2 wings). However, in order to do this, the wyvern would first have to release the opponent as a free action. Then, as a full-round action, it can make its full attack. If it hits with the bite attack, it could again try to grapple the opponent as a free action, for example, to keep him from getting away easily. Once again, the bite attack must be made last for this to work.
2) Hold the grapple and damage the opponent: the wyvern chooses to damage the opponent with a natural attack, and thus, as a standard action, makes a grapple check with a +5 bonus. If the wyvern fails, the opponent is free from the grapple, and the wyvern has a move action left. If the wyvern succeeds at the grapple check, according to the rules on grab, it deals bite damage, as this is "the attack that established the hold", and also keeps up the grapple. Now it can use its rake ability to make two additional talon attacks, but it is not clear if these are made as normal attacks (i.e. using the listed bonus vs. AC, and getting the -2 penalty due to being grappled), or if they are grapple checks (i.e. using the listed bonus vs. CMD - if they are, they probably do not get the +5 bonus for ongoing grappling). It is also not clear if using the rake attacks is part of the standard action made to keep up the grapple, or if a full-round action would be necessary in this case.
Also I wonder, with the way the grab ability and grappled condition are written, is it at all possible for the wyvern to grab and hold a creature with its bite and then attack the held creature with its sting in order to poison it?
Is my interpretation correct? If not, what is the correct way to handle this kind of combat?
To make a full-round attack the monster does have to release the grapple.
I do not know if the monster has the options to make the natural attacks out of order. If you could do that monsters would always do it so they could do full damage and stop the enemy/prey from escaping. I think its unfair, but that does not mean its illegal.
If the monster fails the grapple check on a grappled opponent the opponent is free. If the monster makes the check he gets the natural weapon damage, and the rake damage also. It's part of the standard action made to maintain the grapple. The grappling appendage is the one that does the damage so you can only damage with the bite on a grapple check.
From the PRD
Grab (Ex)......... A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
If the monster fails the grapple check on a grappled opponent the opponent is free. If the monster makes the check he gets the natural weapon damage, and the rake damage also. It's part of the standard action made to maintain the grapple. The grappling appendage is the one that does the damage so you can only damage with the bite on a grapple check.
You imply that on a successful grapple check the creature automatically deals rake damage. That would make no sense, as an attack bonus is provided with the ability.
Any more feedback on this?
If the monster fails the grapple check on a grappled opponent the opponent is free. If the monster makes the check he gets the natural weapon damage, and the rake damage also. It's part of the standard action made to maintain the grapple. The grappling appendage is the one that does the damage so you can only damage with the bite on a grapple check.You imply that on a successful grapple check the creature automatically deals rake damage. That would make no sense, as an attack bonus is provided with the ability.
Any more feedback on this?
Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
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Rake (Ex) A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks under certain conditions, typically when it grapples its foe. In addition to the options available to all grapplers, a monster with the rake ability gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. The bonus and damage caused by these attacks is included in the creature's description. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can't begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
I was wrong its not automatic.