I'm a little fuzzy on the rules for removing the effects of baleful polymorph. In our last game session, the party fighter was turned into a toad after an evil cleric cast baleful polymorph on him. As DM, I ruled that a dispel magic would reverse the polymorph spell as long as the caster beat the caster level check.
Was I correct to allow this?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
I'm a little fuzzy on the rules for removing the effects of baleful polymorph. In our last game session, the party fighter was turned into a toad after an evil cleric cast baleful polymorph on him. As DM, I ruled that a dispel magic would reverse the polymorph spell as long as the caster beat the caster level check.
Was I correct to allow this?
By the rules, I see nothing to suggest that baleful polymorph cannot be undone by dispel magic. Personally, however, I think that's a bit too lenient and, as a DM, I would probably require a break enchantment to end the effect.
Breaking the evil spell placed on a party member could be a quest in and of itself. That's the stuff of fairy tales.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm a little fuzzy on the rules for removing the effects of baleful polymorph. I ruled that a dispel magic would reverse the polymorph spell as long as the caster beat the caster level check.
Was I correct to allow this?
No
Baleful Polymorph is an instantaneous effect, which Dispel Magic cannot undo.
You Need Wish, Limited Wish (possibly), or Break Enchantment to remove it.
I'm a little fuzzy on the rules for removing the effects of baleful polymorph. I ruled that a dispel magic would reverse the polymorph spell as long as the caster beat the caster level check.
Was I correct to allow this?
No
Baleful Polymorph is an instantaneous effect, which Dispel Magic cannot undo.
You Need Wish, Limited Wish (possibly), or Break Enchantment to remove it.
Ummm, incorrect... Baleful Polymorph has a duration of "Permanent" NOT "Instantaneous." Permanent effects are CERTAINLY able to be dispelled by Dispel Magic, given a successful caster level check. Personally, I am of the opinion that anything that can deprive a target of its fundamental "self" certainly should be higher level than fifth, if the case for it being unable to be dispelled is to be made. If we consider the spell "Polymorph" (which is also 5th level;) ONLY works on willing subjects, has a limited duration, does not change the mental status of the target, and can be ended by the recipient, then why should Baleful Polymorph be so much more powerful against an UNWILLING target? Consider the spell Flesh to Stone (a 6th level spell;) it is "Instantaneous" (and as such not subject to Dispel Magic,) but does not change the nature of the target, merely the substance. A Stone to Flesh reverses it and gives the target back all of the qualities it had.
And in case that explanation is not good enough, the description of Dispel Magic is quite clear: "A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired" and "The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can't be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect." This is quite clear, and the implication as well that anything other than "Instantaneous" can be dispelled...
If Baleful Polymorph were not able to be dispelled, why isn't the duration "Instantaneous?"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
heathens.
What, couldn't find a princess?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm a little fuzzy on the rules for removing the effects of baleful polymorph. In our last game session, the party fighter was turned into a toad after an evil cleric cast baleful polymorph on him. As DM, I ruled that a dispel magic would reverse the polymorph spell as long as the caster beat the caster level check.
Was I correct to allow this?
Yes.
It's a permanent-duration spell with no clause immunizing it to dispel magic, therefore by RAW it is reversible with dispel magic. The same was true in D&D 3.5. The D&D 3rd predecessor spell polymorph other was also merely permanent duration with no clause against dispelling. And in the 1974 D&D boxed set, in AD&D 1st Edition, in AD&D 2nd Edition, on the BECMI Expert Set, and in the Rules Cyclopedia, polymorph other was explicitly called out as reversible with a dispel magic.
Which I think establishes that every designer of this game, back to when the first roleplaying game was ever published, would agree your ruling was in conformance with their intent.
Wouldn't a potion of gaseous form work?
Edit: or just the spell gaseous form since its range is touch. No caster level check required.
When A creature is made immune to an ongoing effect doesn't that dispel the effect? Immune doesn't mean suppressed to me but I'm open to interpretations.
Just cast polymorph on them and it will fix it. Hell, even alter self can fix it.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Yes, this means that if you are under the effects of Alter Self you are effectively immune to Polymorph Any Object or Baleful Polymorph.
Just cast polymorph on them and it will fix it. Hell, even alter self can fix it.
...and as long as the baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form.
that is why i suggested the gaseous form. its just a transmutation and not a polymorph.
you could use anything that would make you gaseous or incorporeal that isn't a polymorph.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just cast polymorph on them and it will fix it. Hell, even alter self can fix it....and as long as the baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form.that is why i suggested the gaseous form. its just a transmutation and not a polymorph.
you could use anything that would make you gaseous or incorporeal that isn't a polymorph.
That doesn't work. It just makes you a gaseous frog. (toooot)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, to start with, baleful polymorph is, as the name states, a polymorph effect meaning that all of the gear of the caster has fused with their form (due to it being an animal). So, while constant magical items may still grant their benefits, the caster is unable to access their spell component pouch. This denies access to material components, though can be solved in a number of ways. Another spell component pouch, or Eschew Materials.
Now, while polymorphed, depending on the form you may or may not be able to provide vocal components. Animals are one such form in which you cannot normally. So, while under the effects of baleful polymorph, vocal components are a no go. This could be circumvented by preparing a Silent Spell.
Somatic components run into similar troubles with you being unable to properly do the actions required for spellcasting. See the necessity of the feat Natural Spell for wildshaped druids. This, however, could be ignored by preparing a Still Spell.
Ultimately, while you do keep the capability to cast spells, you run into the issue of actually casting them.
Baleful polymorph appears as a curse in the Core Rulebook glossary under afflictions, which is why I think people are saying it needs a break enchantment or remove curse spell (that, or they've been mislead by unannounced house rules). That particular section even goes so far as to state, ""
I strongly suspect those people are mistaken, however, as baleful polymorph does not carry the curse descriptor presented in Ultimate Magic (and also, because it would imply a static save DC, which obviously isn't the case).
It is far more likely that the intent of the rules is that baleful polymorph can be dispelled as easily as any other ongoing spell effect and that the specific curse listed in the Core Rulebook glossary is for things like disturbing a cursed tomb, setting off a witch's trap or some other storyline-based hazard.
|
|
Necroing the thread with reason;
Above somebody commented that other polymorph effects will block a baleful polymorph. Not true. The description of baleful polymorph specifies, "Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph, and as long as baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form."
Polymorph Subschool contains the general rules regarding the ability. The spell has specific rules regarding its own interaction.
Specific > General in an exception based rule set.
Just cast polymorph on them and it will fix it. Hell, even alter self can fix it.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.Yes, this means that if you are under the effects of Alter Self you are effectively immune to Polymorph Any Object or Baleful Polymorph.
Good idea! :D Alter Self is great.
That statement means that Polymorph effects already in effect when baleful polymorph is cast on the target are not immediately dispelled because baleful polymorph was aimed at them. They are only dispelled if and when the baleful polymorph actually affects the target. Otherwise targeting someone with baleful polymorph would dispel the ongoing effect regardless of the save being successful or not. There needed to be some extra wording to prevent that from happening. Until the save is made we don't know what the effects of the spell are and as it is an exception to the general rule, extra wording prevents automatically dispelling effects.
Baleful polymorph only dispels an ongoing effect if the baleful polymorph actually affects the target. That is all that line means.
stuff
Firstly, considering that the argument can be summed up to "specific over general," it's not nearly as contrived as you think.
Secondly, you're flat out wrong about the general rule being useless if Baleful Polymorph overrides it.
Baphomet's Blessing, Excruciating Deformation, Fleshcurdle, Flesh to Ooze, Mark of the Reptile God, Monstrous Extremities, and Pup Shape all affect unwilling targets and carry negative effects. There's also Polymorph Any Object if you want to only look at the CRB. As well, there are effects from monsters, such as the Qallupilluk's Curse of Scales, that are also polymorph effects that one would want to avoid.
Baleful Polymorph may be the favored harmful polymorph, but it's hardly the only one.
That's an awfully contrived interpretation of that rule. There are a number of underlying assumptions that show up no-where else in any rules interaction.
We know the following things hold true in general:
-Spells that only affect willing targets fail on unwilling targets (no save).
-The subject of an ongoing Polymorph subschool spell can choose whether or not they want to have a new polymorph effect affect them.
-Baleful Polymorph dispels an ongoing polymorph effect if they fail their save.
-Other effects like spell resistance and immunities are taken into account before a save is rolled.
-If Baleful Polymorph (and by extension Polymorph Any Object) DID ignore the rule regarding choosing whether or not to be affected; that clause in the Polymorph Subschool would literally never apply in any situation ever. (that is to say that only those two spells meet the requirements for that clause to even be relevant in the first place)
So you're asking me to believe, without any support from any actual rules or precedents, that:
- For some reason being explicitly able to ignore an effect is irrelevant to whether or not that effect can affect you.
-That for some reason you roll the save BEFORE being allowed to have the option to ignore the effect (thus making that clause moot in this instance)
-That for some reason that this clause behaves differently from every other similar effect, that are all otherwise handled uniformly.
-And that, by extension of the aforementioned assumptions, an entire very straightforward clause of the polymorph sub-school rules doesn't apply at all to any part of the game.
Yeaahhhhhh.... No.
At least you are living up to your name...
-If Baleful Polymorph (and by extension Polymorph Any Object) DID ignore the rule regarding choosing whether or not to be affected; that clause in the Polymorph Subschool would literally never apply in any situation ever. (that is to say that only those two spells meet the requirements for that clause to even be relevant in the first place)
In general, you're right that any interpretation that causes a clause never to apply is the wrong interpretation. But your application is incorrect.
That clause prevents people from (willingly) stacking polymorph effects on to each other and gaining the benefits of all of them. For example, I could otherwise cast giant shape III on myself and gain:
+8 size bonus to Strength
-2 penalty to Dexterity
+6 size bonus to Constitution
+6 natural armor bonus
low-light vision
+10 foot enhancement bonus to [my] speed
and follow it up immediately with a form of the dragon spell and take the better of all of the bonuses granted. With that clause present, I can only choose to become a dragon if I give up the giant bonuses.
But the same principle applies in the other direction. If I can opt not to be affected by a baleful polymorph spell, what is the purpose of "dispelling" the other polymorph spells on me, since this is automatic under the general rules. You've made your own interpretive mistake, because the clause that baleful polymorph dispels any active polymorph spells now never applies.