So I've been thinking... When it really boils down to it, the magic items that are the flat out no-duh choice (in other words, potentially unbalanced) are +stat items. For 4000 gold, a character can get a +1 to all rolls relevant to their character. +1 to attack and +1 to damage, +1 to save DCs and 1 (or more) extra spells, and/or +1 to a group of skills. Or +1 hp/level and +1 to fort saves. It's hard to beat that kind of power. A +1 sword only gives +1 to damage (compared to masterwork) for half the price, but doesn't get the 1.5x benefit when two-handing and may be rendered irrelevant if a different weapon is required (such as versus a skeleton). For + to spell DCs, there is no comparison.
So, should these items be more expensive? I'm thinking 50% more might be a good number that doesn't put it overboard. Or am I merely over-estimating their usefulness?
So I've been thinking... When it really boils down to it, the magic items that are the flat out no-duh choice (in other words, potentially unbalanced) are +stat items. For 4000 gold, a character can get a +1 to all rolls relevant to their character. +1 to attack and +1 to damage, +1 to save DCs and 1 (or more) extra spells, and/or +1 to a group of skills. Or +1 hp/level and +1 to fort saves. It's hard to beat that kind of power. A +1 sword only gives +1 to damage (compared to masterwork) for half the price, but doesn't get the 1.5x benefit when two-handing and may be rendered irrelevant if a different weapon is required (such as versus a skeleton). For + to spell DCs, there is no comparison.
So, should these items be more expensive? I'm thinking 50% more might be a good number that doesn't put it overboard. Or am I merely over-estimating their usefulness?
You are not overestimating their usefullness.
These items are very useful and are therefore the staple of all successful adventurers.As it is there are howevere a lot of new restrictions on these items in PRPG (mainly being locked to two specific item slots). These will limit their proliferation to some extent. The balance of the game is also based on the availability of such items. Personally I think the current price is fine and would leave it as it is. Keep in mind that these items are also useful to monsters and NPCs and you would probably bring more restrictions onto these than to your palyers since they have far less gold for equipment than your players do. Your players will want these items any way you put it. If you want to restrict their availability in the ame you should do it through in game means rather than by adjusting their price.
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They are certainly not cheap. If you are a spellcaster and you can craft it's fine, but for most characters they are pretty expensive.
Remember there is only the headband slot for Charisma Wisdom and Intelligence, and the belt slot for Strength Dex and Con.
This means you can get +2 on two stats for 8k. If you want anything more than that it starts to become really expensive.
You are not overestimating their usefullness.
These items are very useful and are therefore the staple of all successful adventurers.
As it is there are howevere a lot of new restrictions on these items in PRPG (mainly being locked to two specific item slots). These will limit their proliferation to some extent. The balance of the game is also based on the availability of such items. Personally I think the current price is fine and would leave it as it is. Keep in mind that these items are also useful to monsters and NPCs and you would probably bring more restrictions onto these than to your palyers since they have far less gold for equipment than your players do. Your players will want these items any way you put it. If you want to restrict their availability in the ame you should do it through in game means rather than by adjusting their price.
One of the players is going the enchanter route and already at level 4 considering getting a +4 int item. I don't have a whole lot to go on to restrict the availability of these items short of changing the price or stepping in and flat out telling the wizard, "No, you cannot craft your headband +2." Changing the price would be the easiest method to balance these items.
Without the XP cost, crafting magic items is much more lucrative in Pathfinder and this player is making every bit of use out of his feats. That's why he's already looking at a +4 stat item, since it'll only cost 8000 gold. Sure, that's a lot, but it's about his only magic item, it is possbile for him to afford it.
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You are not overestimating their usefullness.
These items are very useful and are therefore the staple of all successful adventurers.
As it is there are howevere a lot of new restrictions on these items in PRPG (mainly being locked to two specific item slots). These will limit their proliferation to some extent. The balance of the game is also based on the availability of such items. Personally I think the current price is fine and would leave it as it is. Keep in mind that these items are also useful to monsters and NPCs and you would probably bring more restrictions onto these than to your palyers since they have far less gold for equipment than your players do. Your players will want these items any way you put it. If you want to restrict their availability in the ame you should do it through in game means rather than by adjusting their price.One of the players is going the enchanter route and already at level 4 considering getting a +4 int item. I don't have a whole lot to go on to restrict the availability of these items short of changing the price or stepping in and flat out telling the wizard, "No, you cannot craft your headband +2." Changing the price would be the easiest method to balance these items.
Without the XP cost, crafting magic items is much more lucrative in Pathfinder and this player is making every bit of use out of his feats. That's why he's already looking at a +4 stat item, since it'll only cost 8000 gold. Sure, that's a lot, but it's about his only magic item, it is possbile for him to afford it.
That is exactly what I did recently with my Conjurer. Thing is he was level 7. I think you gave him too much gold. He should have 6000gp in wealth by level 4. This includes all his item's like 1000gp for a cloak of resistance and all his potions and stuff.
Furthermore, a +4 Item is really cool but its not gamebreaking. He will just get one, maybe two extra spells per day from it and higher save DC's. If he's an enchanter this will help, but it's not that big a deal.
In fact, he will probably be better off using that gold to get himself a +2 Con +2 Int and a bunch of other cool items.
IMO the easiest way to restrict access to such items is to remember this simple mantra: "You can't find a buyer right now."
You don't give your player 8000 gold. You give him various valuable items, which he then trades in for gold. Who's he trading them to? These are luxury or highly-specialized items, you can't just take them to a pawn shop.
I'm not saying you should refuse to let your players sell items; only that it shouldn't be entirely at their convenience. A good way to implement this is with brokers. They come back from an adventure brimming with loot, and they want to convert it to cash. Who's buying? Hell, they don't know. It's not their job to know. It's their job to collect fabulous glittering prizes. So they go to the local broker and offer up the items they desire to sell, which are placed in escrow. After an indeterminate amount of time (i.e. "don't hold your breath, do something while you're waiting") a buyer is found and they collect their cash. Conveniently, this always happens while they're out of town on the next adventure!
Essentially what this means is that they can still have all the shinies they want in precisely the right configuration; but in exchange, they're going to spend one outing a bit under-geared because some of their stuff's on the auction block. Alternately they can take what you give them, which might not be perfect but is probably still useful. Something good later, or something right now: force them to pay for those optimized exchanges during uptime, not downtime.
IMO the easiest way to restrict access to such items is to remember this simple mantra: "You can't find a buyer right now."
This is a pretty good suggestion. Giving the players the gold from selling gear after an adventure (if we can remember the bookkeeping on this) might be enough.
Now keep in mind, a level 4 player should only have 6000 gold, but that's at the start of the level. Into the level, they can still earn gold (and in some cases may take a loan from other players).
In previous games, I had the habit of not doling out enough treasure to match the very rapid pace of leveling I was putting the characters on. My sessions only last about 4 hours and keeping focused on a campaign can be difficult ( mostly due to frustration over power-hungry and combat-hungry players while I want something more RP-oriented yet lack the drive to develop a good story ), so I handed out lots of XP and, in this game, lots of loot to match (and at 6k gold per, I'm about on track, maybe slightly over).
While the +4 item may not seem overpowering... I want to encourage more diversification in actual loot. I've decided I'm going to throw out a lot more spell effects and do everything I can to make the wizard wish he made a cloak of resistance instead. So if the +stat items really are balanced, rather than approaching this problem from a financial perspective I might do it from an incentive perspective.
You are not overestimating their usefullness.
These items are very useful and are therefore the staple of all successful adventurers.
As it is there are howevere a lot of new restrictions on these items in PRPG (mainly being locked to two specific item slots). These will limit their proliferation to some extent. The balance of the game is also based on the availability of such items. Personally I think the current price is fine and would leave it as it is. Keep in mind that these items are also useful to monsters and NPCs and you would probably bring more restrictions onto these than to your palyers since they have far less gold for equipment than your players do. Your players will want these items any way you put it. If you want to restrict their availability in the ame you should do it through in game means rather than by adjusting their price.One of the players is going the enchanter route and already at level 4 considering getting a +4 int item. I don't have a whole lot to go on to restrict the availability of these items short of changing the price or stepping in and flat out telling the wizard, "No, you cannot craft your headband +2." Changing the price would be the easiest method to balance these items.
Without the XP cost, crafting magic items is much more lucrative in Pathfinder and this player is making every bit of use out of his feats. That's why he's already looking at a +4 stat item, since it'll only cost 8000 gold. Sure, that's a lot, but it's about his only magic item, it is possible for him to afford it.
The crafting feats were made to do that. If you up the price you are basically negating his feat choice, which he will resent. By spending that feat to create items he also loses versatility in combat. The feat also does not get around the option of having to wait for it to be created. If he wants to blow all his gold on one item let him do it. Generally speaking a player with one good item is easier to deal with than a couple items that let him do various things. The money that is going to that stat item is not going towards wands, scrolls, potions, or any other item casters generally try to pickup.
Another point is that players normally want a multitude of items, and they can't normally afford all of them. In that aspect the items are priced pretty well. If you make the prices higher the melee types that normally depend on stat boost items, and weapons will be hurt a lot more than the caster would.
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I want to encourage more diversification in actual loot. I've decided I'm going to throw out a lot more spell effects and do everything I can to make the wizard wish he made a cloak of resistance instead. So if the +stat items really are balanced, rather than approaching this problem from a financial perspective I might do it from an incentive perspective.
This will be the best way to handle it. Make him roll a couple of saves :D
Remember you have to be at least CL 8 to create any sort of stat boosting item.
Remember you have to be at least CL 8 to create any sort of stat boosting item.Actually you can be level 3. That CL in the item creation isn't a prerequisite, it's the CL of the item for purposes of dispelling it.
This is correct. If you dont meet all the requirement the craft DC for the item goes up, and if you fail you get a cursed item that will appear to be the item you wanted if you try to identify it.
It's risky to try it.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Also, note the new city wealth rules in PRPG. Each town/city has a limit on what's available for sale based on settlement size. If you want an item under that limit, there's a 75% chance it's available. If you want something over the limit, then you effectively generate a random treasure hoard for the city, and only those items are for sale above the limit.
If your PCs are at a smaller town or city, stat boosting items might be above the limit. Even at a metropolis, the limit is 16K, so a +6 item wouldn't be easy to find.
Also, note the new city wealth rules in PRPG. Each town/city has a limit on what's available for sale based on settlement size. If you want an item under that limit, there's a 75% chance it's available. If you want something over the limit, then you effectively generate a random treasure hoard for the city, and only those items are for sale above the limit.
If your PCs are at a smaller town or city, stat boosting items might be above the limit. Even at a metropolis, the limit is 16K, so a +6 item wouldn't be easy to find.
I think those are obscure rules in the sense that it seems not many people know about them. I guess it makes the crafting a builder priority if its enforced.
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Remember you have to be at least CL 8 to create any sort of stat boosting item.Actually you can be level 3. That CL in the item creation isn't a prerequisite, it's the CL of the item for purposes of dispelling it.This is correct. If you dont meet all the requirement the craft DC for the item goes up, and if you fail you get a cursed item that will appear to be the item you wanted if you try to identify it.
It's risky to try it.
That CL 8 is not a requirement. The requirements are:
- Craft Wondrous Item
- fox's cunning
So you need the spell and the feat and the gold. That's it.
Well hell then. I read this "For
other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item
itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as
the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a
higher minimum on the creator’s level)." (pg 460)as saying as saying that the caster level of the item is also the minimum creator level.
I had houseruled the price for stat boosting items to bonus squared *2000gp (instead of 1000).
It keeps them interesting, and limit very high abilities (which can be problematic at high levels IMO), and it's more difficult to have a stat booster for each ability.
I'm pretty happy with the result, as I don't like high powered game much.
I use the random magic item tables to limit stat boosting item availability - you're not very likely to roll one of those few items. I give the players a list of the items available in their town (after spending several hours to several days hunting around for the stuff). Admittedly, it doesn't limit enchanting, but in my campaign that's not a bit deal, since it's more cinematic and they hardly have any downtime.
All the adventures as written and the CR's of monsters are written assuming that the wealth by level guidelines are at least loosely adhered to.
Increasing the cost of a very popular and necessary item is essentially messing with the wealth guidelines.
There is, of course, nothing wrong with adjusting it- either at the Wealth end (you are poorer than normal) or at the price in (you can't have that yet). Just make sure you account for it when you send monsters of the "appropriate" CR against your PC's. If their HP are lower, their DC's lower, their hit and damage rolls lower, than they should be then you Do run the risk of it being a problem.
Its easy to say that +1 or +2 DC isn't that big a deal. Compare that to the damage rolls and hit rolls lost over the group of PC's though because they can't afford the item and it tends to add up rather quickly.
Not saying don't do it. Its your game. Just be aware that it has the potential to cause some problems.
-S
I see the +stat items as a special case though. The other items seem reasonably priced (well, relative to one another, this is to say nothing of their prices relative to normal goods). The player in question has a strong aversion to consumables and the party is slightly over-geared due to their lack of use of consumables. As for other items, aside from the cloak of resistance, no other item seems like a better deal than the +2 stat items, one for the fighter and one for the wizard.
+1 to DC is a lot when ultimately the wizard tosses out web and half of the enemies are pinned and unable to help the other half of the enemies. +2 to str isn't nearly as useful, but still beats the heck out of comparable boosts (like going from +1 to +2 weapon), despite being much more applicable.
Pricing it higher wouldn't be so much gimping the enchanter as making other items more appealing. For the time being, I'll stick with the incentive approach rather than the economic approach. But I'll have to spend more time planning out encounters than usual to make this work.
It might sound mean but I toss any idea of what wealth a character "should" have by any level out the window. I also limit what they can make or buy tremendously. I had a player show me the tables recently as I had honestly never even read them. My world is very gritty and low magic, however, so you might not have the same option. And before anyone says I'm too rough on my players we have alot of fun. The desperation and danger makes for a much more intense game. While I like high-fantasy, my low fantasy game makes for a very rewarding experience where nothing is taken for granted.
Let's say your player wants to craft something you think he might not be ready for or you think is a bit unbalancing for his level. Add another ingredient which must be quested for. My DM for my Wednesday game actually had us do a whole module because our dwarf wanted mithril plate. We had to go to a city in the underdark and deal with slavers and all kinds of miscreants just to haggle over enough mithril to make it. It was a rough adventure and we actually ended up losing our barbarian and one of our fighters. But I will say this. The dwarf player certainly appreciates that mithril plate.
It might sound mean but I toss any idea of what wealth a character "should" have by any level out the window. I also limit what they can make or buy tremendously. I had a player show me the tables recently as I had honestly never even read them. My world is very gritty and low magic, however, so you might not have the same option. And before anyone says I'm too rough on my players we have alot of fun. The desperation and danger makes for a much more intense game. While I like high-fantasy, my low fantasy game makes for a very rewarding experience where nothing is taken for granted.
Let's say your player wants to craft something you think he might not be ready for or you think is a bit unbalancing for his level. Add another ingredient which must be quested for. My DM for my Wednesday game actually had us do a whole module because our dwarf wanted mithril plate. We had to go to a city in the underdark and deal with slavers and all kinds of miscreants just to haggle over enough mithril to make it. It was a rough adventure and we actually ended up losing our barbarian and one of our fighters. But I will say this. The dwarf player certainly appreciates that mithril plate.
If you account for it in your game or your style that is fine. There is nothing wrong with a group wanting to run a low magic game. But the game itself still assumes a certain wealth level when determining monster CR. If you dont have that wealth level that fight is going to be harder. If you want it to be harder or you adjust the difficulty of the encounter thats fine, but it should be accounted for.
Personally I dont think the stat boosting items should be increased in price. They are already more restricted then in 3.5 and they are quite important to most characters. If you are worried about a caster spending too much time crafting, decrease the amount of downtime in your campain. Crafting takes time. A +4 item takes more then 2 weeks (16 days) to craft. If at level 4 you dont want him making a +4 item, dont give him 16 days.
As for the argument the item is overpowered because every character takes it, that is kind of silly. Every fighter takes a magic weapon, is that overpowered? These are just staple items. The difference now is that the crafting rules change has taken some control out of dms hands. But you still have plenty of control. Its not time to panic and have knee jerk reaction here.
I see the +stat items as a special case though. The other items seem reasonably priced (well, relative to one another, this is to say nothing of their prices relative to normal goods). The player in question has a strong aversion to consumables and the party is slightly over-geared due to their lack of use of consumables. As for other items, aside from the cloak of resistance, no other item seems like a better deal than the +2 stat items, one for the fighter and one for the wizard.
+1 to DC is a lot when ultimately the wizard tosses out web and half of the enemies are pinned and unable to help the other half of the enemies. +2 to str isn't nearly as useful, but still beats the heck out of comparable boosts (like going from +1 to +2 weapon), despite being much more applicable.
Pricing it higher wouldn't be so much gimping the enchanter as making other items more appealing. For the time being, I'll stick with the incentive approach rather than the economic approach. But I'll have to spend more time planning out encounters than usual to make this work.
If you do try to gimp his feat by raising the price I think its only fair to allow him to replace the feat*. Wizards are supposed to lock people down. I don't like consumables either. They are normally over-priced and a waste of money. I avoid them like the plague most of the time. Your group just sounds like a smart group to me. If given the choice to buy a consumable, or take feats and buy items that make it so you don't have to heal its only reasonable to make sure you don't get hurt. Being proactive is better than being reactive.
*I am not telling how to run your game. That was just a suggestion.
If you account for it in your game or your style that is fine. There is nothing wrong with a group wanting to run a low magic game. But the game itself still assumes a certain wealth level when determining monster CR. If you dont have that wealth level that fight is going to be harder. If you want it to be harder or you adjust the difficulty of the encounter thats fine, but it should be accounted for.
I don't punish my players. Players get magic weapons, armor, etc. I just closely regulate what they have and the encounters as well. I'm not throwing them into anything that is beyond their ability unless it's part of the story.
There's also no such thing as a + weapon in my game. That Longsword +2 is now Dawn's Light. The fabled sword used by Lord Jael Blackthorn to defeat Grosh the Black at the battle of King's River. Forged for him by the Mage Valtimeous. I name all my magic items. Adds to the history of my setting.
One adventure they might be rolling in dough. The next, not so much.
If you account for it in your game or your style that is fine. There is nothing wrong with a group wanting to run a low magic game. But the game itself still assumes a certain wealth level when determining monster CR. If you dont have that wealth level that fight is going to be harder. If you want it to be harder or you adjust the difficulty of the encounter thats fine, but it should be accounted for.
I don't punish my players. Players get magic weapons, armor, etc. I just closely regulate what they have and the encounters as well. I'm not throwing them into anything that is beyond their ability unless it's part of the story.
There's also no such thing as a + weapon in my game. That Longsword +2 is now Dawn's Light. The fabled sword used by Lord Jael Blackthorn to defeat Grosh the Black at the battle of King's River. Forged for him by the Mage Valtimeous. I name all my magic items. Adds to the history of my setting.
One adventure they might be rolling in dough. The next, not so much.
whatever works for you :). I dont mind the named items, i would just prefer if there was a better mechanic to keep those flavorful items (improvoing items). Kinda sad when theres a 2 page backstory for a +2 longsword, and you find a +3 one 2 levels later.
I dont mind the named items, i would just prefer if there was a better mechanic to keep those flavorful items (improvoing items). Kinda sad when theres a 2 page backstory for a +2 longsword, and you find a +3 one 2 levels later.
Very true. I've had a few times when a magic item with a cool name and/or backstory was retired for a newer model. Most of my players understand the thought process behind the items and will give it as a gift to a prominant NPC or keep it at their estate over a fireplace, etc. Just incentive for me to think of more I guess. I play a cleric/bard in a high fantasy campaign similar to Forgotten Realms on Wednesdays and run my game (when I can) on Saturdays. So I really do appreciate both ends of the spectrum. As long as it's fun I'm up for any kind of game :)
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I would imagine this would do much to make those with money the most powerful of people, where as bloodlines, dynasties, etc. used to be the fantasy norm. I'm okay running a high magic campaign, but more often than not, its the setting details that restrict player groups from having either the materials or knowledge they need.
I'm not sure that I ever make the "process" of making an item as any guarantee that the item can actually be made. Responding to the OP's inquiry, there are other ways to effectively control the amount and kind of magic items being created. If the expectations of the setting, the context of the game area are believable, than the infrequency of availability to do so work well. Also, in addition to raising prices, you can make mishap frequency slightly greater if the PC is rushed. I try to keep the players so busy, that down-time is actually a luxury!
Hope that helps.
-Pax
