Trap Spotter, is it needed?


Rules Questions

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A capital idea.


My point is that this skill (and quite a few others) has taken the focus off role-playing the character and placed it onto the GM in the form of a game mechanic. And the major (but certainly not the only) reason it has done so is that it has made the passive check for the trap (with this ability) just as effective as the active search, for which there is no justification whatsoever, especially since it is a non-magical ability, (Ex) instead of (Su). Now, instead of "I carefully scan the hallway for possible traps and prod ahead with my short-sword," (the result of a player role-playing his character in response to GM's descriptions, GM's get "I have Trap Spotter, so just tell me if I find a trap, my perception is +26," (which is game mechanics and has just rendered the description and role-playing parts unnecessary...)

Furthermore, the Take 10 and Take 20 rolls are both pretty clear, in that they are active actions. Doing so involves actively searching for traps, (which if players decide to do so when the game-mechanic, passive Trap Spotter skill is just as good,) is most certainly the result of metagaming... Furthermore, both Take 10 and Take 20 state that there must be no danger and no consequence for failure, which is not true for traps. Searching implies poking around and carefully prodding things to see if they move, etc, etc, and failing to detect one while searching might set it off due to the search, (given a bad enough roll,) which makes Take 10 and Take 20 non-options for Trap Finding...

That being said, how can Trap Spotter (simply passing within 10 feet of a trap) be just as good as searching for a trap (poking around, actively searching, etc) yet carry none of the risks? The correct answer is that it can't be... Or, at least it shouldn't be...

So, I adjudicate it this way...

First, the skill is dependent upon clues that the Rogue must be able to perceive, visually or otherwise, which is why it is an (Ex) and not an (Su.) Therefore, if there is no quality that the rogue could perceive, then this skill simply doesn't work, period. Simply passing within 10 feet of a trap, no matter what the description says, is not enough to justify allowing the rogue an automatic chance at detecting something with no perceptual clues. That would make this the purview of an (Su) ability, not an (Ex) one... For example, a rogue walking down the right side of a corridor could not sense the trap on the other side of the 2-foot thick stone wall separating this corridor from the corridor on the other side, without some magical aid (X-Ray Vision, perhaps.) The rules, as written would seem to allow this...

Second, I automatically assume that the character relying on this sense is distracted (because he is actually doing something other than searching for traps (+5 DC,) magic traps are invisible when not actively searching (+20 DC,) mechanical traps with hidden triggers are considered invisible when not actively searching (+20 DC) and usually more than one unfavorable condition applies (+2 DC per condition, light, position, wind, darkvision only seeing in black and white and not being able to see shadows, etc,) so that relying on this skill makes it much less likely that a character will just simply notice a trap without actively searching. In effect, a GM can reasonably impose a +27 DC to just about any trap characters could detect with this skill. In fact, the "any character can make a perception check to detect a trap before it goes off" rule can be modified this way. The rules for perception are in keeping here...

This skill is the result of players preferring to rely on game mechanics rather than actually role-playing their characters by imagining the situation in their head and telling the GM how their character is acting. Instead, players are simply expecting the GM to tell them that there is a trap (which they don't even have to have described to them,) at which point they can simply throw some more dice and disarm it... Once the game reaches this point, the detailed descriptions and action by action accounting of characters (ie, roleplaying) is unnecessary, it is simply a matter of die rolls and game mechanics, in which case players should go play 4th Edition, World of Warcraft or other mindless games for people with no imagination or creativity to speak of...

The Exchange

have to call you on this one.

"Furthermore, both Take 10 and Take 20 state that there must be no danger and no consequence for failure, which is not true for traps."

T10 is done whenever there is a danger of failure - that's what it is for. Originally it gave the example of climbing, with the character taking 10 to avoid failure, but becoming unable to take 10 once he was being shot at (Distracted etc.).

If I do a perception check, do I set the trap off if I fail to detect it? The answer would be no (in most cases). So I can take 20, getting every result on my perception check from 1 to 20. Please read the other posts on T10 and T20, this has been covered many times.

The Exchange

And I roll play it to the max, I T10 and T20 every chance I get to avoid touching the dice - I'll discribe in glowing detail how my Rogue will carefully gaze into the cript from just outside the door that hasn't been opened in years.
"Well laddie" says the deep voiced dwarf turning from the door - "there's something waiting just above the door inside the room to drop on yea head, and ah concealed door in middle o'f da back wall. Looks like da's a pit trap in front of it too and somet'ing invisible in the middle o'f da room. Smells like Zombie. I'd bet an invisible zombie. Looks like Ax work's comming" Draws AX.


Okay, I'd agree with the Take 10 being allowed when there is a danger of failure. I never tell my players what DC they are aiming to beat, so if they want to opt for an average roll, okay. I guess it makes sense. But, the only reason most players even opt for this is because the player knows that his character is +?? to <insert skill> and this WILL result in a success according to the Core Rulebook, as presented; not because he actually thinks an average attempt by the character would actually yield a positive result. The CHARACTER should realize that "in real life" there is always the chance of failure and never just put forth an average attempt... But, if the player wants to do so, I guess this is acceptable...

However, I would never allow a Take 20 on any situation where there is any damaging consequence of failure. (And searching for a trap or searching a room with a hidden monster, or trying to climb a wall, certainly qualify as potentially damaging consequences...) The thought process here is that the character will be making as many attempts as they need to to get the desired result (the player rolling a 20.) As this assumes that they could get a failing roll prior to this, there must never be any danger in a failing roll...

And, your assumption that, in most cases, searching for a trap and failing will not set it off, is absolutely correct. But, the statement proves my position, not yours. The key words are, "in most cases..." That one chance is all that is needed to present the damage potential that renders a Take 20 off-limits... If a 1 on the roll would represent enough of a failure to set the trap off, it's enough. I usually rule that failing the check by 10 or more results in setting the trap off, which, coincidentally, would make a Take 10 a simple failure to find the trap... (Amazing how that works out, huh?)

And unfortunately for the person whose dwarf would sit quietly in the doorway, you could never gain that level of knowledge doing that. Ever. "Observing" is not the same as "searching" no matter how long you choose to engage in it, or how high your perception modifier is. Searching implies a distinct, active effort to discover things that are (by design) hidden from observation, like traps, secret doors and concealed monsters (where it very well might be the sense of touch that detects the edges of the door, or the trip wire, or the edges of the pit, or being close enough to hear the creature breathe...) Anyone who thinks that simply observing things can lead to anywhere near the same level of discovery as actually searching has been watching too many movies or playing too many video games. (And is exactly the type of player that I was referring to that is trying to get everything handed to them on the roll of a die for a skill that they can pound a bunch of points into...) Having been detailed to search for anti-personnel/anti-tank mines, IED's, booby traps, and people hiding in buildings for real, (and being quite good at it, if I do say so myself,) sitting at the edge of the field/stairs/road/room will NEVER yield that level of information or result... Ever. You are practically guaranteed to get yourself and your group horribly killed by doing so.


Pathfinder Adventure, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So taking 10,

When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help. straight from the prd.

Taking 10 on perception is fine in my game, it's the average - the PC has no idea if they are in danger or not and it's not their best effort.

Taking 20 however, has a risk of failure... so no. Mechanically, taking 20 is having twenty tries (or two minutes worth of effort) and eventually getting 'it' right. That means if you get a 1 as well. Hence failure.

But some things are circumstantial, if your rogue is gazing into the room he/she might not see any traps as he/she has no line of sight to it. Some traps may have a scent of some kind so it might be smelt or even heard in some cases.

Perception is all the senses; not just sight. Physically looking for a trap i.e. Using touch might reveal more than just looking alone. Although sight might show that something is off or suggest this statute warrants more time and the physical follow up search.


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If "observing" and simply "noticing" things were enough, the GM would have just told you all about those things in the first place, and the check would have been unnecessary...

What you've presented isn't role-playing, its putting a fancy dress on the game mechanic simply giving you all that information without you having to search for it. A perception check when observing will never tell you that kind of information... Here is how I adjudicate it:

The GM knows that there is an invisible zombie that hasn't moved in a while in the middle of this somewhat cobweb-filled 30'x30' room standing partially behind a wooden crate; a pit trap covered in dust; another invisible skeleton above the door behind a balanced block it waits to tip out onto the party; and a concealed door behind the remains of a bookshelf along the back wall.

Rogue: "I carefully gaze into the room, making sure to look up to the ceiling and as far into the dark corners as I can. I'm going to Take 20. I got a 46 on my perception check." (This is allowed because there is no IMMEDIATE danger from failing the check... Had the zombie been in a threatening square, there certainly would be...)

GM: "Okay, you see a somewhat cobweb-filled room with a wooden crate in the center of the room, and the remains of a bookshelf against the back wall. Cobwebs stretch from the crate and bookshelf to various points on the ceiling and walls. Several cobwebs look as though they are curving around a spot near the crate, as though there was something there, but it could be something behind the crate. The ceiling is about 10 feet up, although you cannot see most of it due to the cobwebs. Several long strands of webs connect to a section of the wall above the door you are looking through, and you can almost make out a dark spot near the top edge through the webs. The floor is covered with dust, and you see no tracks or traces of anything having moved through it recently, although you see a series of small ridges and indentations near the edge of the crate near its edge. You smell the odor of stone dust, musty wood and stale air, but mixed in is the smell of decaying flesh."

No matter how long the dwarf gazes into this room, there is ZERO chance of him seeing an invisible zombie standing partially behind the crate, a concealed door completely covered by a bookcase, an invisible skeleton behind a block of stone over his head, or a pit covered in dust 10' in front of him. There is also no way for him to search for the trap over his head as there are no visual clues from his position and any other type of search would involve moving into the room, thus setting it off. What his perception check has done, however, is give him the information just described.

Now, walking into the room will certainly reveal the skeleton (after the stone block falls,) the zombie (which will start moving through the cobwebs to attack,) and possibly the pit (if he dodged out of the way and into it, or if he dodged another other way and the dust revealed it, which I would give him another roll for.)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Hruggek wrote:
A lovely description of events that I would agree with for low skill characters

My problem with your interpretation of the rules is that it further enforces the tenant that only magic beats magic and the like. A character with +26 to a skill is like unto a god in that area. +26 is Sherlock Holmes levels of perceptive ability and thus should be represented as such. He should know absolutely that the is a roughly humanoid, but invisible shape in that square as he can tell by the exact displacement of the cobwebs (assuming he beats the zombies stealth check, he might not!) and should absolutely have some indicator that something is a wrong about the area above him "There is a small and undisturbed pile of dust among the cobwebs, greyer than the rest and obviously made of stone grinding on stone, something has been moved near here."

I agree that things should be role-played as much as possible, I don't think you have to remove the benefits of someone building their character to be great at a skill once they get to truly extraordinary skill levels (they will have but alot of ranks and possibly feat choices better served elsewhere into it.) I also think that such a character would be well within their rghts to take ten. After all when you a probably the most perceptive person you've met, how often would you have to give it your all?


Malk_Content wrote:


My problem with your interpretation of the rules is that it further enforces the tenant that only magic beats magic and the like. A character with +26 to a skill is like unto a god in that area. +26 is Sherlock Holmes levels of perceptive ability and thus should be represented as such. He should know absolutely that the is a roughly humanoid, but invisible shape in that square as he can tell by the exact displacement of the cobwebs (assuming he beats the zombies stealth check, he might not!) and should absolutely have some indicator that something is a wrong about the area above him "There is a small and undisturbed pile of dust among the cobwebs, greyer than the rest and obviously made of stone grinding on stone, something has been moved near here."

I agree that things should be role-played as much as possible, I don't think you have to remove the benefits of someone building their character to be great at a skill once they get to truly extraordinary skill levels (they will have but alot of ranks and possibly feat choices better served elsewhere into it.) I also think that such a character would be well within their rghts to take ten. After all when you a probably the most perceptive person you've met, how often would you have to give it your all?

This isn't about interpretation of the rules, although mine seem to be more in keeping with reality, game balance and simple good role-playing, this is about making the game about ROLE-PLAYING and not GAME MECHANICS. It is also about the difference between "observing" and "searching," which I am beginning to think are the same thing to people without a firm grasp of reality...

Enforcing the tenant that only magic beats magic is the way it should be, else it wouldn't be magic; it would be just another skill to be learned... (Which this game system has almost accomplished, anyway. And how players with a lack of imagination seem to like it; probably because they can't stand that their are some people out there that can do things that they can't, (and can't overcome,) much like what I see in most of them and their lives...) Simply put, if you'd wanted to be able to dabble in magic, don't be a rogue or a fighter, or at least take a couple of levels in wizard or sorcerer... If you can't, then guess what? You can't... You are forced to live with it... (Just like reality; imagine that.)

A +26 perception is certainly not "like unto a god," because it can be achieved at moderate levels (in the 6-9 range) by characters that choose to allocate their skills and feats appropriately... And, regardless of the over-abundance of magic in this system and the game world in general (which is why I don't play in it,) mortals are still mortals. The proof is simple... The invisible zombie has a 50 DC to its stealth, which this character cannot hope to even equal with a Take 20... (+40 for being invisible and unmoving (read the spell description), and Took 10 on its Stealth = 50 DC... And that is without any modifier to being partially behind the crate (which might be mitigated by the cobwebs, anyway.) The invisible zombie above the door should be considered even worse, as can the trap it triggers... The skeleton is behind a block of stone, which, unless someone has X-Ray Vision, cannot be perceive AT ALL, and how exactly would he be able to "check" the area above the door? Is he Plastic Man and can extend his neck out to "check" it? Its above his head, at the opposite angle, covered in cobwebs, and designed to be concealed... Same as the concealed door. The pit was designed to be concealed to begin with, its 10' away and covered in dust, which would make it harder to find, not easier... So, unless he actually SEARCHES (which, by default would require entering the room and poking around) simply observing tells him exactly what I described, and that was pretty generous, in my opinion, for ANY level character that got a 46 on its perception check for simply observing...

And, even Sherlock Holmes missed things. If you'd read the books, you would know that Sherlock Holmes relied on his powers of reasoning and deduction as much as, if not more than, his powers of observation... And, he never made his conclusions based entirely on simple observation. He even says (Repeatedly!!!) that things are not always what they seem...

So, unless someone can show me an example of how simple observation can give them the same information that actually searching can, I'm going to proceed with reality and assume that it doesn't...

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