Barbarian ... Oh GOD WHY!?!?!?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Zmar wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

...

Beowulf physically overpowered an Troll or Ogre or somesuch through sheer physical power. That's the kind of thing I want to see PC's achieving...

Human, 25 points epic build

STR 20 from the start, 25 at level 20, add Bbn mighty rage and suddenly you overpower a Bestiary fire giant. Now take into account that heroes of Beowulf's caliber tend to wear magic items and throw in a strength surge (+20 on a strength check on level 20) Even a storm giant must be careful... well, is that epic enough? :D

Beowolf didn't have magical gear. Thats the point of the complaint. High level characters shouldn't need to be totaly reliant on magic, because then its not the hero overcoming the obstical in a test of human excelence, but something he is granted through his equipment.


Caineach wrote:
Zmar wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

...

Beowulf physically overpowered an Troll or Ogre or somesuch through sheer physical power. That's the kind of thing I want to see PC's achieving...

Human, 25 points epic build

STR 20 from the start, 25 at level 20, add Bbn mighty rage and suddenly you overpower a Bestiary fire giant. Now take into account that heroes of Beowulf's caliber tend to wear magic items and throw in a strength surge (+20 on a strength check on level 20) Even a storm giant must be careful... well, is that epic enough? :D

Beowolf didn't have magical gear. Thats the point of the complaint. High level characters shouldn't need to be totaly reliant on magic, because then its not the hero overcoming the obstical in a test of human excelence, but something he is granted through his equipment.

What you want, my friend, is low magic campaign, where minor magic items don't exist because wizards don't do anything minor. Fair enough. The game as its written assumes a different magic economy, so the monsters are balanced accordingly. In any case, running a game like that means a little monkeying with the system.

In a game like that, class features, especially those of the barbarian become more important, because they are all you have. I have played in a campaign like that one and it was lots of fun. PCs having epic stats help balance things against the monsters, as well, because like class features, they are all you have.


Mr. Fishy keeps the magic lite and the villians people. Demons and dragons shouldn't hide under bushes waiting for a high level party to come kill them. A world should live and breathe. That doesn't mean that demons and dragons don't exist. Mr Fishy just thinks that epic battles should be EPIC. Not epic.

The heroes battle monsters of legend and become legends themselves. No one remembers the name of the shepherd that the dragon ate, but no one forgets the hero that bravely died sealing a gate to the Abyss.


Mr.Fishy wrote:

Mr. Fishy keeps the magic lite and the villians people. Demons and dragons shouldn't hide under bushes waiting for a high level party to come kill them. A world should live and breathe. That doesn't mean that demons and dragons don't exist. Mr Fishy just thinks that epic battles should be EPIC. Not epic.

The heroes battle monsters of legend and become legends themselves. No one remembers the name of the shepherd that the dragon ate, but no one forgets the hero that bravely died sealing a gate to the Abyss.

I wish I could swear on these boards so I could say F~$* YES!


kyrt-ryder wrote:
It just bugs me that monsters have such massive stats as opposed to humanoids who literally get boned by comparison.

I like it that comparatively wimpy, dumb humans can still kick ass out of skill, training, and perseverence.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
It just bugs me that monsters have such massive stats as opposed to humanoids who literally get boned by comparison.
I like it that comparatively wimpy, dumb humans can still kick ass out of skill, training, and perseverence.

The problem is they need magic items :(

Shadow Lodge

Not even reading the entire first page of this thread, I thought up an explanation of why the Barbarian seems lacking. This, of course, may not be correct, and it not even trying to go into detail.

Barbarian: Loses some(if not most) control to hit things harder. No formal training.

Fighter: Formal training allows for more "tricks"(feats) to make him a better combatant.

It just looks like a comparison between some street punk and a black belt to me. Doesn't mean I'd be more likely to play a fighter though.


Dragonborn3 wrote:

Barbarian: Loses some(if not most) control to hit things harder. No formal training.

Fighter: Formal training allows for more "tricks"(feats) to make him a better combatant.

If you are comparing fighter to barbarian, then I think it really comes down to if you like to have 11 extra feats (w/ some fighter only options) or 10 rage powers. The feat selection is large & diverse, and there are more than 11 really good ones that I can choose which will apply in pretty much every game session. I have a hard time coming up with 10 rage powers that I will use every game session (or ones that are as good as the 11 feats).

For example compare the Raging Climber/Leaper/Swimmer group to pretty much any of the feat chains: Critical Focus, Power Attack/Cleave, Vital Strike, Dodge->Spring Attack, Mounted Combat, Point Blank Shot (Archery), Shield Proficiency, 2-weapon fighting, Weapon Focus.

The benefits of a barbarian (Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense and a few points of DR) are nice, but they don't really outweigh the fighter feats and weapon/armor training to me IMHO.

I think I agree with Xum in general. Barbarians aren't completely horrible, but why are they limited in such odd ways? There apparently wasn't a cost-benefit analysis done to see that if you compare fighter to barbarian, you are giving up a lot to be a barbarian and not really gaining a lot. I would personally rather play a monk just for the interesting tricks they can perform rather than a barbarian.

I will wait patiently for PHB2 with new rage powers before I ever play a barbarian.


Caineach wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
It just bugs me that monsters have such massive stats as opposed to humanoids who literally get boned by comparison.
I like it that comparatively wimpy, dumb humans can still kick ass out of skill, training, and perseverence.
The problem is they need magic items :(

So, without magic our hero could only wrestle a cloud giant on autosuccess, storm giant would win on 18+ if Beowulf rolled a 2, phoooey, such a degradation :D


Caineach wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
It just bugs me that monsters have such massive stats as opposed to humanoids who literally get boned by comparison.
I like it that comparatively wimpy, dumb humans can still kick ass out of skill, training, and perseverence.
The problem is they need magic items :(

The XP awards rules has guidelines for enemies who don't have the appropriate magic items. There's precedent for adjustment with DM adjudication freedom which is a good thing.

That only helps for NPCs, though, of course.


Caineach wrote:
The problem is they need magic items :(

Not in our houserules, they don't... ask Jess Door or Houstonderek ;)


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Caineach wrote:
The problem is they need magic items :(
Not in our houserules, they don't... ask Jess Door or Houstonderek ;)

Magic Itens are TOO necessary now, I don't like it.


Xum wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Caineach wrote:
The problem is they need magic items :(
Not in our houserules, they don't... ask Jess Door or Houstonderek ;)
Magic Itens are TOO necessary now, I don't like it.

That's a staple of D&D, though. Change that and you're not playing the same game.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Did you mean too unnecessary Xum? ?_? Cause honestly I don't see that as a bad thing. I would prefer that all vertical bonuses (increases that make you stronger i.e. bonuses to hit) come from class/level and that all horizontal bonuses (things that let you do something new but not more powerful i.e. walk on water, trip someone) come from feats/magic items.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Did you mean too unnecessary Xum? ?_? Cause honestly I don't see that as a bad thing. I would prefer that all vertical bonuses (increases that make you stronger i.e. bonuses to hit) come from class/level and that all horizontal bonuses (things that let you do something new but not more powerful i.e. walk on water, trip someone) come from feats/magic items.

Yeah, I'd been hoping for a more 3.5 with generic classes + feat trees thing for 4e but it's not what we got. :(


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Did you mean too unnecessary Xum? ?_? Cause honestly I don't see that as a bad thing. I would prefer that all vertical bonuses (increases that make you stronger i.e. bonuses to hit) come from class/level and that all horizontal bonuses (things that let you do something new but not more powerful i.e. walk on water, trip someone) come from feats/magic items.

I meant Necessary.

I agree with you there. I love magic itens, but I'm a little bored with them, all is + that and + that... I don't like itens like that so much, in second edition things had a little more fluff, and sometimes I miss
it.

As to Dork Lord, I didn't see magic itens being nearly as necessary in 2nd edition as it is today to keep things up, sure u NEEDED that + whatever sword to hit the monster, but that was about it, all the rest were fluff or came from class levels. Today magic itens are too tied together with the character power, without it a high level ... whatever (specialy non-casters) becomes seriously disabled in most level equivalent fights and situations.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I would prefer that all vertical bonuses (increases that make you stronger i.e. bonuses to hit) come from class/level and that all horizontal bonuses (things that let you do something new but not more powerful i.e. walk on water, trip someone) come from feats/magic items.

That's more or less where I'm coming from as well, except that across the board I'd generally like class/level/feats to count for more, and items to be left for fun stuff like the apparatus of Kwaalish. Not the same game? It can be almost identical, except instead of writing "belt of giant strength +4" or whatever on my sheet, I can write "Fighter's strength training (x4)" instead. Same result, but less gear dependence.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I would prefer that all vertical bonuses (increases that make you stronger i.e. bonuses to hit) come from class/level and that all horizontal bonuses (things that let you do something new but not more powerful i.e. walk on water, trip someone) come from feats/magic items.

Somebody here on the boards once posted their AWESOME home-brew system for this.

(I can't remember his avatar name - I haven't seen him around the boards recently - but he was from Brazil)

Basically, he HALVED the Wealth-by-Level, but gave every character 'inherent enhancements' also equal to half of normal WBL. This 'virtual wealth' was used to buy stuff like stat bonuses, weapon enhancement bonuses (applying to all weapons), AC bonuses, save bonuses, etc... (generic bonuses in other words). All of these generic bonuses were UNAVAILALBE to purchase/craft into items. What remained was all UNIQUE magical items, i.e. utility items, flaming/holy/etc weapon properties, fortification armor, etc. So a magic sword would by definition be specifically magical and amazing, not just a generic "i tend to hit stuff more often with it"... But the end result exactly matches the effect of the current standard system (re: power level vs. level-appropriate CR challenges), while transferring a signifigant amount of the power from items to the characters themselves (making being captured/robbed is LESS a big deal than currently, though still a big deal). (I'm not sure how he adjusted for the removal of the generic enhancments from the cost formula to calculate the total cost, i.e. weapon enhancement +2 +flaming = +3. I think he just counted 'special' enhancements as if they were on top of a +1 weapon, though that isn't the perfect solution. Probably the solution is increasing the curve of cost escalation for BOTH 'virtual' generic enhancements and the 'real' bonus-equivalent enhancement abilities, say +50%, but a flaming weapon just costs as if +1 (though adjusted up 50%))

Different Classed PCs would (like now) tend to get different generic bonuses most useful to their schtick, while not 'forcing' a certain association to specific classes, i.e. a Fighter with really good Saves is an option just as a Save-neglected but Melee Machine Fighter is an option. It doesn't take much work, since the 'inherent enhancements' still use the regular GP costs. ...The main difference in OUTCOME is allowing 'inherent weapon enhancements' to apply to ALL weapons, which CAN make the gameplay more convenienet, though I could see instituting separate 'categories' for ranged and melee weapons (natural being their own as is normal).

Dark Archive

You can play low magic; they've existed. Darksun Magic Items were scarce and illegal. But the game is made around Magic Items, because they are simple to define and act as a reward for players; if you make a home campaign and the story merits rewards then good for that. If you lower CRs or give magic-item like abilities so Magic Items aren't needed than that can work as well (Think Vow of Poverty, but not even a fraction as degenerate).


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Caineach wrote:
The problem is they need magic items :(
Not in our houserules, they don't... ask Jess Door or Houstonderek ;)

Fear Trog's long pointy stick! And 5 AOOs/round! Rawr!


Loopy wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Did you mean too unnecessary Xum? ?_? Cause honestly I don't see that as a bad thing. I would prefer that all vertical bonuses (increases that make you stronger i.e. bonuses to hit) come from class/level and that all horizontal bonuses (things that let you do something new but not more powerful i.e. walk on water, trip someone) come from feats/magic items.
Yeah, I'd been hoping for a more 3.5 with generic classes + feat trees thing for 4e but it's not what we got. :(

You are still supposed to be in the force cage. Who let you out?


Quandary wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I would prefer that all vertical bonuses (increases that make you stronger i.e. bonuses to hit) come from class/level and that all horizontal bonuses (things that let you do something new but not more powerful i.e. walk on water, trip someone) come from feats/magic items.

Somebody here on the boards once posted their AWESOME home-brew system for this.

(I can't remember his avatar name - I haven't seen him around the boards recently - but he was from Brazil)

Basically, he HALVED the Wealth-by-Level, but gave every character 'inherent enhancements' also equal to half of normal WBL. This 'virtual wealth' was used to buy stuff like stat bonuses, weapon enhancement bonuses (applying to all weapons), AC bonuses, save bonuses, etc... (generic bonuses in other words). All of these generic bonuses were UNAVAILALBE to purchase/craft into items. What remained was all UNIQUE magical items, i.e. utility items, flaming/holy/etc weapon properties, fortification armor, etc. So a magic sword would by definition be specifically magical and amazing, not just a generic "i tend to hit stuff more often with it"... But the end result exactly matches the effect of the current standard system, while transferring a signifigant amount of the power from items to the characters themselves (making being captured/robbed is LESS a big deal than currently, though still a big deal). (I'm not sure how he adjusted for the removal of the generic enhancments from the cost formula to calculate the total cost, i.e. weapon enhancement +2 +flaming = +3. I think he just counted 'special' enhancements as if they were on top of a +1 weapon, though that isn't the perfect solution. Probably the solution is increasing the curve of cost escalation for BOTH 'virtual' generic enhancements and the 'real' bonus-equivalent enhancement abilities, say +50%)

Different Classed PCs would (like now) tend to get different generic bonuses most useful to their schtick, while not 'forcing' a certain association to specific...

Brasil people are just Awesome, wouldn't you say? ;)

And My main issue with magic itens today is not really because I like low fantasy, cause I like it just the same as High magic ones, it's just that today itens are TOO necessary, just that. And I don't think that it is completelly bad as the Barbarian is (hehe) it's just something I don't like so much. And I miss the fluff.. all Hail AD&D.


Xum wrote:
Brasil people are just Awesome, wouldn't you say? ;)

"People from Peru like to swoop in at the last minute to save the day. And they can shoot laser beams from their eyes!" --Obscure movie quote #5,678.

Sczarni

We do not swoop in to save the day, we do however shoot laser beams from our eyes. However it is the cultural equivalent of farting so as a polite bunch we never do it in public


Frerezar wrote:
We do not swoop in to save the day, we do however shoot laser beams from our eyes. However it is the cultural equivalent of farting so as a polite bunch we never do it in public

Makes sense... Remember never to date any Peruan Chicks more than 3 times, cause when they start getting intimate they could start doing it. We Brasilians do nothing of the kind, just drink, eat and party quite a lot. ;)

So, how about those lousy Barbarians, eh?


I like the basic flavour of the barbarian while not outdoing the fighter as frontliner, but some of it's rage powers might be upgraded or some nice ones added.

I never much liked adding con much, I rather see temporary hp and fortitude saves added (scaling with greater and mighty rage, like a con increase), if you really want a suicidal barbarian add a feat or ragepower allowing for that. akin to ferocity half-orc power.

-fasthealing 1 would be nice as rage power, activated as free action lasting as long as you continue to rage, reflecting stamina/vigor rather than true healing.

- one rage power allowing a reroll on either a fortitude or will save

- one rage power adding + 1 dodge ac for both range and melee attacks and reflex saves
(possibly taken more than once, or scaling with greater and mighty rage)

* Also, in WoW RPG there is the option of shout feats, it would be nice to have rage powers be exchanged for shout feats or have them added anyway since they are nice to have for barbarians.

Shout feats do a number of things some inspire morale, increase the effect of a charge, demoralize foes etc.

while basically a bit better than rage powers in general, you also do not need to rage perse though you get a free use when you enter rage and they are a bit more colourful than rage powers in my opinion.

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