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My proposition:
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 10 ft., Fly 30
ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d4), Claw (1d3); Ability Scores Str
8, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 11; Free Evolutions
bite, wings, limbs (legs), claws.
Because as it is, the Eidolon doesn't represent all the archtypical life forms, it's got Biped, Quadruped, and Serpentine, but not Bird-like. So, unlike the others, it's starts out small, and can get bigger, but only as big as large.
I know this isn't perfect, but I think the wings benefit is outweighed by the small size.
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My proposition:
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 10 ft., Fly 30
ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d4), Claw (1d3); Ability Scores Str
8, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 11; Free Evolutions
bite, wings, limbs (legs), claws.Because as it is, the Eidolon doesn't represent all the archtypical life forms, it's got Biped, Quadruped, and Serpentine, but not Bird-like. So, unlike the others, it's starts out small, and can get bigger, but only as big as large.
I know this isn't perfect, but I think the wings benefit is outweighed by the small size.
I agree but all Eidolons seem to have 4 points of free Evolution.
Flight Form Avian = Legs, Wings would be 4 points and a fair start for a winged critter.
What I would like is The ability to have a floating ball with perfect magical flight taking all 4 of my base points. Add a bite, a big ole eyeball, some spell like abilities, a few tentacles later on some Spell Resistance...
I think it would probably be OK it it could only be small, and could not be advanced to Medium until, say 3rd level (and of course Large pops up at 6th).
Jason pointed out in another thread that flying forms are available starting at 5th level. You cash your evolutions in and get wings at that point.
The forms are meant as a flexible base you can do anything with.
You have your choice, Flying snakey thing? Flying Dragon, Flying angel? Ditch the wings and giant chicken...
Jason pointed out in another thread that flying forms are available starting at 5th level. You cash your evolutions in and get wings.
We are all aware of this. We just don't think you should HAVE to wait until 5th level. What if I want my eidolon to be a bird of some sort? Why should I wait until 5th for that? Hell, I can grab a Medium flying companion at 1st level with the druid (pteranodon). And an 8 Str is still likely high enough to serve as a mount for a small character (and that's assuming you play in a campaign that gives pets average stats, and mine usually don't).
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Jason pointed out in another thread that flying forms are available starting at 5th level. You cash your evolutions in and get wings.We are all aware of this. We just don't think you should HAVE to wait until 5th level. What if I want my eidolon to be a bird of some sort? Why should I wait until 5th for that? Hell, I can grab a Medium flying companion at 1st level with the druid (pteranodon). And an 8 Str is still likely high enough to serve as a mount for a small character (and that's assuming you play in a campaign that gives pets average stats, and mine usually don't).
If you want a flying companion earlier, then be a Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Witch.
Every pet class does not need to provide the same options as every other pet class.
If you want a flying companion earlier, then be a Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Witch.
Every pet class does not need to provide the same options as every other pet class.
But if the class is designed to be THE pet class (and the summoner is), there's no way other pet classes should have that kind of iconic option when you can't. And the Druid is the only thing on your list that even counts as a pet to begin with. Familiars don't belong in combat (especially not a witch's).
On top of that, it was mentioned as being a balance issue as to why it's not there. If it's such a balance issue, why is it available to anyone?
Jason pointed out in another thread that flying forms are available starting at 5th level. You cash your evolutions in and get wings.We are all aware of this. We just don't think you should HAVE to wait until 5th level. What if I want my eidolon to be a bird of some sort? Why should I wait until 5th for that? Hell, I can grab a Medium flying companion at 1st level with the druid (pteranodon). And an 8 Str is still likely high enough to serve as a mount for a small character (and that's assuming you play in a campaign that gives pets average stats, and mine usually don't).
The forms are meant as a flexible base you can do anything with.
You have your choice, Flying snakey thing? Flying Dragon, Flying angel? Ditch the arms and giant chicken...
Also, the forms are meant specifically as a tank/ offensive option. Small flying things don't mesh with that.
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If you want a flying companion earlier, then be a Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Witch.
Every pet class does not need to provide the same options as every other pet class.
But if the class is designed to be THE pet class (and the summoner is), there's no way other pet classes should have that kind of iconic option when you can't. And the Druid is the only thing on your list that even counts as a pet to begin with. Familiars don't belong in combat (especially not a witch's).
On top of that, it was mentioned as being a balance issue as to why it's not there. If it's such a balance issue, why is it available to anyone?
It's available to the others because, frankly, the 'flying' pets of other classes are not that great in combat. They're good for scouting and such, but that's it.
The problem is that the Summoner's pet IS the best one, and a flying version of it at level 1 is even MORE awesome. This pet isn't limited to being a smaller size like those other flying pets, and it's actually decent in combat. Very decent.
So yes, the Summoner's pet is the best pet, and it is precisely that reason why it should not fly that early on. The other 'early fliers' are really only good at non-combat duties, and even then it seems I hardly see people take them as an option. Maybe as a familiar, which they then quickly forget about.
The forms are meant as a flexible base you can do anything with.
You have your choice, Flying snakey thing? Flying Dragon, Flying angel? Ditch the wings and giant chicken...
Also, the forms are meant specifically as a tank/ offensive option. Small flying things don't mesh with that.
I'm sorry, but the spell-like ability and skilled evolutions would like to have a word with you, as would all the sensory evolutions. While the tank/offensive option is the most obvious and most common use, it is not even close to the only thing it can do.
It's available to the others because, frankly, the 'flying' pets of other classes are not that great in combat. They're good for scouting and such, but that's it.
The problem is that the Summoner's pet IS the best one, and a flying version of it at level 1 is even MORE awesome. This pet isn't limited to being a smaller size like those other flying pets, and it can actually be decent in combat AND fly at level 1 (if it was allowed).
So yes, the Summoner's pet is the best pet, and it is precisely that reason why it should not fly that early on. The other 'early fliers' are really only good at non-combat duties, and even then it seems I hardly see people take them as an option. Maybe as a familiar, which they then quickly forget about.
Take another look at the Pteranodon. That is not a bad combat pet at all. And if you're small, you get to start off with a combat pet that can keep you out of combat. I'm sorry, but you're just not selling me here, at all. And I'll say this. The pteranodon is gonna be hard to touch at starting levels. Flyby Attack requires nothing but a fly speed, which means that's the FIRST feat my Pteranodon is going to have.
I'm sorry, but the spell-like ability and skilled evolutions would like to have a word with you, as would all the sensory evolutions. While the tank/offensive option is the most obvious and most common use, it is not even close to the only thing it can do.The forms are meant as a flexible base you can do anything with.
You have your choice, Flying snakey thing? Flying Dragon, Flying angel? Ditch the wings and giant chicken...
Also, the forms are meant specifically as a tank/ offensive option. Small flying things don't mesh with that.
Ok, I'm not going to argue, seems pretty clearly a tank to me though.
the Pteranodon is also not a core option.
the Pteranodon is also not a core option.
The Pteranodon is in the Pathfinder Bestiary, with rules for use as an animal companion. The Bestiary is a Core Pathfinder book. Heck, the animal choices section in the Pathfinder Rulebook specifically says to see the Bestiary for additional choices. Yeah, it's core.
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Take another look at the Pteranodon. That is not a bad combat pet at all. And if you're small, you get to start off with a combat pet that can keep you out of combat. I'm sorry, but you're just not selling me here, at all. And I'll say this. The pteranodon is gonna be hard to touch at starting levels. Flyby Attack requires nothing but a fly speed, which means that's the FIRST feat my Pteranodon is going to have.It's available to the others because, frankly, the 'flying' pets of other classes are not that great in combat. They're good for scouting and such, but that's it.
The problem is that the Summoner's pet IS the best one, and a flying version of it at level 1 is even MORE awesome. This pet isn't limited to being a smaller size like those other flying pets, and it can actually be decent in combat AND fly at level 1 (if it was allowed).
So yes, the Summoner's pet is the best pet, and it is precisely that reason why it should not fly that early on. The other 'early fliers' are really only good at non-combat duties, and even then it seems I hardly see people take them as an option. Maybe as a familiar, which they then quickly forget about.
The nice thing is, I don't need to convince you. You need to convince the rest of us (well, mostly Jason) that a flying form is necessary for the Summoner at level 1. Frankly, I don't see it. The Pteranodon is one animal, it still has a crappy strength, and can't be Large size until level 7 (the Eidolon can do that at level 5, not to mention the other crazy evolutions it can get).
End point is, the animal companions are still very limited in how they can progress. One pteranodon is going to be very similar in stats to another. The eidolon, on the other hand, can be a LOT of things. It could be virtually safe, be a decent scout, or it could be a crazy flying terror in the skies.
Just because you'd choose to eat coffee and cake on your tactical nuke does not mean others won't use it in other ways. :)
the Pteranodon is also not a core option.The Pteranodon is in the Pathfinder Bestiary, with rules for use as an animal companion. The Bestiary is a Core Pathfinder book. Heck, the animal choices section in the Pathfinder Rulebook specifically says to see the Bestiary for additional choices. Yeah, it's core.
Nope it's an add on and not a core option. A GM may allow it but it is not a base option . Roc is also in that book, but your core base options are not of the flying type
Nope it's an add on and not a core option. A GM may allow it but it is not a base option .
Paizo has specifically stated that the Bestiary is considered Core.
The nice thing is, I don't need to convince you. You need to convince the rest of us (well, mostly Jason) that a flying form is necessary for the Summoner at level 1. Frankly, I don't see it. The Pteranodon is one animal, it still has a crappy strength, and can't be Large size until level 7 (the Eidolon can do that at level 5, not to mention the other crazy evolutions it can get).
End point is, the animal companions are still very limited in how they can progress. One pteranodon is going to be very similar in stats to another. The eidolon, on the other hand, can be a LOT of things. It could be virtually safe, be a decent scout, or it could be a crazy flying terror in the skies.
Just because you'd choose to eat coffee and cake on your tactical nuke does not mean others won't use it in other ways....
An 8 Str on a creature that can hit and run really isn't that crappy, especially when it's base damage is 1d8. And the eidolon can't be Large until 6th level. Flight becomes available at 5th. Large isn't available until 6th. 1 level early shouldn't be a problem.
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I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from. The Eidolon is already (at least in its current version) easily the best pet out there. Heck, it's even better than some actual tank classes. It has a TON of options and is an AMAZING pet already.
WHY should we think it needs more, when it can already do WHAT YOU WANT IT TO DO at level 5? :)
I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from. The Eidolon is already (at least in its current version) easily the best pet out there. Heck, it's even better than some actual tank classes. It has a TON of options and is an AMAZING pet already.
WHY should we think it needs more, when it can already do WHAT YOU WANT IT TO DO at level 5? :)
Because it CAN'T. I don't want arms with claws. I don't want a tail/tail slap. And I don't want a quadruped. I want something with 2 wings, 2 legs, and a BEAK. And I can't swap out my free evolutions for any of this. No matter what, I'm stuck with options I don't want.
Hell, that issue applies for a number of things, including the weapon-wielding humanoid that has no need for those automatic claws.
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I think you misunderstand where I'm coming from. The Eidolon is already (at least in its current version) easily the best pet out there. Heck, it's even better than some actual tank classes. It has a TON of options and is an AMAZING pet already.
WHY should we think it needs more, when it can already do WHAT YOU WANT IT TO DO at level 5? :)
Because it CAN'T. I don't want arms with claws. I don't want a tail/tail slap. And I don't want a quadruped. I want something with 2 wings, 2 legs, and a BEAK. And I can't swap out my free evolutions for any of this. No matter what, I'm stuck with options I don't want.
Hell, that issue applies for a number of things, including the weapon-wielding humanoid that has no need for those automatic claws.
Man, on that note, I want a Large sized body form at level 1. Or the ability for it to cast spells at level 1. Heck, just open up other class ability lists and let me pick and choose. I'm stuck with all these options I don't want.
Really, sometimes things just won't do what you want. The eidolon gets a lot already, and I'm still not convinced it needs a flying form at level 1. You want one? House rule it. :)
Director of Game Design
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The flying base form option was heavily considered during the design, but we left it off for a few reasons.
The first being that, while you can get a flying pet with other classes, they are set in their capabilities, which means the PCs have a hard time using them to get around typical "flying" obstacles... which is something we prefer to keep out of the hands of players until 5th level. Many of our design assumptions assume this. Thats not to say you can't get around it, but it is a bit harder.
Second, with the eidolon's flexiblity, to maintain the above balance, we would have had to place certain restrictions on the flying base form. I did not want to have one base form work one way and all the rest work another way. Alternatively, I did not want to apply these restrictions to the entire lot.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Man, on that note, I want a Large sized body form at level 1. Or the ability for it to cast spells at level 1. Heck, just open up other class ability lists and let me pick and choose. I'm stuck with all these options I don't want.
Really, sometimes things just won't do what you want. The eidolon gets a lot already, and I'm still not convinced it needs a flying form at level 1. You want one? House rule it. :)
The Large isn't there for real, provable balance issues (see +8 Str, +4 Con). I have yet to see anyone tell me what the balance issues are for flying in comparison to the other forms, and that was the supposed reason for not having a flight form.
Man, on that note, I want a Large sized body form at level 1. Or the ability for it to cast spells at level 1. Heck, just open up other class ability lists and let me pick and choose. I'm stuck with all these options I don't want.
1) They can cast spells at level 1.
2) You're arguing something that isn't what Maverick is arguing. Maverick is saying "I cannot get a creature that emulates a bird", which is true: it is impossible to have an Eidolon which has only wings and one set of limbs without also getting the tail slap, which is out of place on a typical avian.
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I don't see much of a balance issue with an avian base form at all. I would make it poor manoeuvrability so that the flight option at level 5 improves on its base fly but I would keep it medium size.
On the other hand If you wanted to retain the original flight (30 ft, Good) I would go with the following free evolutions:
Bite (1), Flight (2), wing buffet (1)
This way the creature is always flying and cannot land without further evolutions.
The first being that, while you can get a flying pet with other classes, they are set in their capabilities, which means the PCs have a hard time using them to get around typical "flying" obstacles... which is something we prefer to keep out of the hands of players until 5th level. Many of our design assumptions assume this. Thats not to say you can't get around it, but it is a bit harder.
Sorry, but I'm just not seeing this. The level limitations set on different evolutions mean that while the eidolon may have some extra attacks, there are very few things it could do that I can't mimic with a druid's pet and one or two spells. And if you are intended to play the Eidolon as a PC (as you stated in another thread), that shouldn't be a problem.
Typical "flying" obstacles have never presented a problem of any sort to any group I've ever played in. As a rule, they're so non-challenging they get ignored (not counting flying creatures, but that's what bows are for). Heck, the eidolon can get a climb speed, which can be used to bypass many low-level "flying" obstacles with a little creative thinking.Second, with the eidolon's flexiblity, to maintain the above balance, we would have had to place certain restrictions on the flying base form. I did not want to have one base form work one way and all the rest work another way. Alternatively, I did not want to apply these restrictions to the entire lot.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
What kind of restrictions are we talking about here? Just out of sheer curiosity?
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Director of Game Design
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would also be nice to see and aquatic base form and a burrowing base form too :)
And this is the sort of box of worms I am not too interested in opening...
All of these "types" are pretty easily made with evolutions. Making them base forms sort of undercuts the system.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Game Design
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Sorry, but I'm just not seeing this. The level limitations set on different evolutions mean that while the eidolon may have some extra attacks, there are very few things it could do that I can't mimic with a druid's pet and one or two spells. And if you are intended to play the Eidolon as a PC (as you stated in another thread), that shouldn't be a problem.
Typical "flying" obstacles have never presented a problem of any sort to any group I've ever played in. As a rule, they're so non-challenging they get ignored (not counting flying creatures, but that's what bows are for). Heck, the eidolon can get a climb speed, which can be used to bypass many low-level "flying" obstacles with a little creative thinking.
As I mentioned... they are a part of our adventure design assumptions.. and as such, generally part of the game assumptions. Easy access to flight does not come until 5th level.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
would also be nice to see and aquatic base form and a burrowing base form too :)And this is the sort of box of worms I am not too interested in opening...
All of these "types" are pretty easily made with evolutions. Making them base forms sort of undercuts the system.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Personally, I'm not so fond of the Base Form system anyway. Give all Eidolons 5 evolution points that can never be changed at level 1, give them pre-set saves (or just allow the player to pre-set the saves at level 1), and call it a day. Much more streamlined and one fewer thing to cross-reference when building a Summoner.
Personally, I'm not so fond of the Base Form system anyway. Give all Eidolons 5 evolution points that can never be changed at level 1, give them pre-set saves (or just allow the player to pre-set the saves at level 1), and call it a day. Much more streamlined and one fewer thing to cross-reference when building a Summoner.
This doesn't seem a bad idea. But make it so none of the set evolutions can cost more than 2 points, maybe disallow Poison and Tremorsense.
And while I'm thinking about 2 point evolutions....Immunity should not be one of those. If it's kept at all, immunity should be a 4 point evolution (possibly 3, but I'm leaning all the way to 4).
Immunity is fine at 2, if Resistance stays at 1. Resistance grants up to Resist 15, which combined with Improved Evasion means the Eidolon will rarely take much damage, if any at all, from an elemental attack. Immunity isn't a big step up from Resist 15, certainly not a 3-4 times as expensive step up.
Immunity is fine at 2, if Resistance stays at 1. Resistance grants up to Resist 15, which combined with Improved Evasion means the Eidolon will rarely take much damage, if any at all, from an elemental attack. Immunity isn't a big step up from Resist 15, certainly not a 3-4 times as expensive step up.
Yeah, but resistance doesn't give 15 until 10th level. Immunity is available at 7th.
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would also be nice to see and aquatic base form and a burrowing base form too :)And this is the sort of box of worms I am not too interested in opening...
All of these "types" are pretty easily made with evolutions. Making them base forms sort of undercuts the system.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Agreed and I'm glad you said so too.
Zurai has a solid argument for no base forms at all and I think it would be better to go that route; simply turn the quadruped, biped and serpentine into "examples" for quick play options.
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would also be nice to see and aquatic base form and a burrowing base form too :)And this is the sort of box of worms I am not too interested in opening...
All of these "types" are pretty easily made with evolutions. Making them base forms sort of undercuts the system.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingAgreed and I'm glad you said so too.
Zurai has a solid argument for no base forms at all and I think it would be better to go that route; simply turn the quadruped, biped and serpentine into "examples" for quick play options.
+2
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Hi! well my friends and I came up with some new base forms to suit all weird tastes (almost all of them anyway) so you just might like it. We also used some great new evolution we have found around the messageboards and edited some of the ones for the sake of balancing stuff (like the level requirement on size evolutions at least).
Quadruped I
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2).
Quadruped 2
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Attack 2 claw (1d4); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions claw, limbs (legs) (2).
Quadruped 3
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Attack 2 hooves (1d4); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions hoof, limbs (legs) (2).
Yeah someone likes Ixion summon from Final Fantasy and like to have some sort of Bicorn monster and such kind of stuff around to ride.
Biped I
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs(legs).
Average bestman of sorts I suppose.
Biped 2
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good); Attack weapon; Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions weapon training, limbs (arms), limbs(legs).
For those that wanted a more humanoid weapon wielding eidolons.
Avian I
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack 1 beak (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions beak, limbs (wings), limbs(legs).
This avian evolution can be made small as per normal rules and has no fly speed since the evolution of flight is lvl 5, but just think of it as a baby bird or still developing his wings properly before flying.
Avian 2
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack beak (1d6), talons (1d4); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions beak, talons, limbs(legs), fast.
Well I have a Final Fantasy fan in my group so yes... a chocobo type of avian... of sorts...
Serpentine 1
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft., climb 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will
(good); Attack bite (1d6), tail slap (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, climb, tail, tail slap, fast
Serpentine 2
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack weapon; Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions limbs (arms), tail, fast, weapon training
This one is of an aberration monster lover (no pun intended!) so yeah some sort of Yuan-ti creature like.
PS:(EDIT) I will thank for the great new evolutions to the person that came up with them Heladriell and Maeloke (that I can remember), thx for the ideas and comments to help fix some balancing stuff to Maeloke, lastknightleft and Draeke Raefel, and thanks to Jason Bulmahn for his support and giving himself time to answer our post (not always like we want hahahahaha but he does answer the questions).
PS: Sorry for the long post.