With +2 natural armor base, +5 through size growths, +16 through levels, the ability to take heavy armor and shields, and up to +10 more natural armor from evolutions, it's way, way easy to make Eidolons into invincible targets. Without even using the natural armor evolution, a level 20 Summoner's Huge Biped Eidolon can have a 55 AC (10 base, +14 from +5 full plate, +7 from +5 heavy shield, +23 natural, +3 dex, -2 size). If you wanted to really trick it out you could add rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, deflecting weapons, the natural armor evolutions, the improved natural armor and dodge feats, etc etc. I bet you could get a 80 AC Eidolon without making too big a dent in your level 20 cash. Nothing can touch that kind of AC.
My recommendation is to either reduce the natural armor bonuses, or drop the ability to wear armor.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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With +2 natural armor base, +5 through size growths, +16 through levels, the ability to take heavy armor and shields, and up to +10 more natural armor from evolutions, it's way, way easy to make Eidolons into invincible targets. Without even using the natural armor evolution, a level 20 Summoner's Huge Biped Eidolon can have a 55 AC (10 base, +14 from +5 full plate, +7 from +5 heavy shield, +23 natural, +3 dex, -2 size). If you wanted to really trick it out you could add rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, deflecting weapons, the natural armor evolutions, the improved natural armor and dodge feats, etc etc. I bet you could get a 80 AC Eidolon without making too big a dent in your level 20 cash. Nothing can touch that kind of AC.
My recommendation is to either reduce the natural armor bonuses, or drop the ability to wear armor.
Except all the usual things that bypass ludicrous AC, like touch attacks, Pinpoint Targeting, and any number of auto-hit effects, which would be attacking an AC in the mid-teens even with all of that tricking out.
I don't disagree that it might be too much, but uber-AC is not an unsolvable problem.
Yes, their touch AC is low (though still not terribad -- 11 base for the example 55 AC Eidolon), and if they can get to him the enemies can try to attack the Summoner as well, since he's clearly marked with a big glowing rune. 80 AC is still ridonkulous.
With +2 natural armor base, +5 through size growths, +16 through levels, the ability to take heavy armor and shields, and up to +10 more natural armor from evolutions, it's way, way easy to make Eidolons into invincible targets. Without even using the natural armor evolution, a level 20 Summoner's Huge Biped Eidolon can have a 55 AC (10 base, +14 from +5 full plate, +7 from +5 heavy shield, +23 natural, +3 dex, -2 size). If you wanted to really trick it out you could add rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, deflecting weapons, the natural armor evolutions, the improved natural armor and dodge feats, etc etc. I bet you could get a 80 AC Eidolon without making too big a dent in your level 20 cash. Nothing can touch that kind of AC.
My recommendation is to either reduce the natural armor bonuses, or drop the ability to wear armor.
That example however is spending more then half of your evolution points on armor. Leaving alot less around for building limbs into attacks and other offense. I think if someone wants to make a giant unhittable ac monster let them, it will be far less effective at hitting things, and have a pretty crummy touch ac to boot.
In terms of actually how to address it possibly a more stringent cap on improved natural armor AND/OR spreading out the benefits of the armor training evolution (1 EP per feat gained for instance).
Yes, their touch AC is low (though still not terribad -- 11 base for the example 55 AC Eidolon), and if they can get to him the enemies can try to attack the Summoner as well, since he's clearly marked with a big glowing rune. 80 AC is still ridonkulous.
I am quite curious how you would get to 80 AC and how much you would actually have left over to A equip the summoner and B evolution points left to actually work on the other parts of the eidolon.
Druids animal companions can also get heavy armor and shield proficiencies. it just costs them feats.
Animal companions don't get as much natural armor as Eidolons do. The maximum natural armor a druid's companion can get without feats or items is 21 (9 ankylosaur, +12 from levels), while an Eidolon can get to 33 (2 base, +5 from size increases, +16 from levels, +10 from further evolution), 12 higher than an AC. ACs also cannot use shields, as shield proficiency isn't in their list.
With +2 natural armor base, +5 through size growths, +16 through levels, the ability to take heavy armor and shields, and up to +10 more natural armor from evolutions, it's way, way easy to make Eidolons into invincible targets. Without even using the natural armor evolution, a level 20 Summoner's Huge Biped Eidolon can have a 55 AC (10 base, +14 from +5 full plate, +7 from +5 heavy shield, +23 natural, +3 dex, -2 size). If you wanted to really trick it out you could add rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, deflecting weapons, the natural armor evolutions, the improved natural armor and dodge feats, etc etc. I bet you could get a 80 AC Eidolon without making too big a dent in your level 20 cash. Nothing can touch that kind of AC.
My recommendation is to either reduce the natural armor bonuses, or drop the ability to wear armor.
Except how effective would this creature be in melee? Having a massive AC but not much offense makes you mobile cover, and it will be ignored in preference to softer/ more dangerous creatures.
Except how effective would this creature be in melee? Having a massive AC but not much offense makes you mobile cover, and it will be ignored in preference to softer/ more dangerous creatures.
Here's my sample level 20 Eidolon, sans skills and feats:
Eidolon: Vajra
Base Form: Biped
Size: Huge (space 15', reach 15' (20' with slam)
Str: 40 (+15)
Dex: 16 (+3)
Con: 22 (+6)
Int: 7 (-2)
Wis: 10 (+0)
Cha: 14 (+2)
Special Abilities and Evolutions:
Darkvision 60'
Link
Share Spells
Improved Evasion
Devotion
Slam
Limbs (arms)
Limbs (legs)
Armor Training x2
Magic Attacks (magic, lawful, and good)
Push (slam)
Reach (slam)
Energy Attacks (electricity)
Immunity (electricity)
Damage Reduction 10/chaotic
Frightful Presence (DC 20)
Hit Dice: 17d10+102
Hit Points: 197
AC: 55 (+14 Armor, +7 Shield, +23 Natural Armor, +3 Dex, -2 Size) [Touch 11, Flat-footed 50]
Init: +3 (+3 Dex)
Speed: 30ft
Saves:
Fortitude +16 [+10 base, +6 Con]
Reflex +8 [+5 base, +3 Dex], Improved Evasion
Will +10 [+10 base, +0 Wis], +4 vs Enchantment
BAB: +17
CMB: +35
CMD: 45
Melee Atk: +32 (2d8+1d6+22/20/x2, slam)
A simple greater magic fang boosts the slam attack to +37 and 39.5 average damage, with a 20' reach and a 5' push. Not extravagant, but nothing to be ignoring, either. Alternately, just give it a Huge greatsword for 4d6+27 damage with 4 attacks (5 hasted).
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Druids animal companions can also get heavy armor and shield proficiencies. it just costs them feats.Animal companions don't get as much natural armor as Eidolons do. The maximum natural armor a druid's companion can get without feats or items is 21 (9 ankylosaur, +12 from levels), while an Eidolon can get to 33 (2 base, +5 from size increases, +16 from levels, +10 from further evolution), 12 higher than an AC. ACs also cannot use shields, as shield proficiency isn't in their list.
Yes they can. Up their intelligence to 3 and they can take any feat they can physically accomplish.
Yes they can. Up their intelligence to 3 and they can take any feat they can physically accomplish.
With an intelligence of 3 they are no longer animals, and no longer viable as animal companions.
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Except how effective would this creature be in melee? Having a massive AC but not much offense makes you mobile cover, and it will be ignored in preference to softer/ more dangerous creatures.Here's my sample level 20 Eidolon, sans skills and feats:
Eidolon: Vajra
Base Form: Biped
Size: Huge (space 15', reach 15' (20' with slam)Str: 40 (+15)
Dex: 16 (+3)
Con: 22 (+6)
Int: 7 (-2)
Wis: 10 (+0)
Cha: 14 (+2)Special Abilities and Evolutions:
Darkvision 60'
Link
Share Spells
Improved Evasion
Devotion
Slam
Limbs (arms)
Limbs (legs)
Armor Training x2
Magic Attacks (magic, lawful, and good)
Push (slam)
Reach (slam)
Energy Attacks (electricity)
Immunity (electricity)
Damage Reduction 10/chaotic
Frightful Presence (DC 20)Hit Dice: 17d10+102
Hit Points: 197
AC: 55 (+14 Armor, +7 Shield, +23 Natural Armor, +3 Dex, -2 Size) [Touch 11, Flat-footed 50]
Init: +3 (+3 Dex)
Speed: 30ftSaves:
Fortitude +16 [+10 base, +6 Con]
Reflex +8 [+5 base, +3 Dex], Improved Evasion
Will +10 [+10 base, +0 Wis], +4 vs EnchantmentBAB: +17
CMB: +35
CMD: 45
Melee Atk: +32 (2d8+1d6+22/20/x2, slam)A simple greater magic fang boosts the slam attack to +37 and 39.5 average damage, with a 20' reach and a 5' push. Not extravagant, but nothing to be ignoring, either. Alternately, just give it a Huge greatsword for 4d6+27 damage with 4 attacks (5 hasted).
Hope you aren't planning to take him anywhere. There aren't a lot of places a Huge creature can go.
Hope you aren't planning to take him anywhere. There aren't a lot of places a Huge creature can go.
He only loses 1 AC for being Medium size (+2 size, -5 natural armor, +2 dex). I only went to Huge because the character I made that build for is intended for the Kingmaker adventure path, which is supposed to include mass battles and so on.
The greatsword costs it that shield bonus.
Not if the shield is animated.
And Jason's point would still need to be addressed - what does the summoner look like, defense-wise, because you can just pound on whichever one is weaker to get at the other.
Yes, that's a point, but remember that among other things, the summoner has invisibility and greater invisibility on his spell list, and he can swap spaces with his Eidolon 4 times a day. With a more defensive/close combat focused Eidolon, attacking the Summoner in melee could be a big mistake (transpose with the Eidolon, Eidolon attacks and grapples, you're now boned).
Merge Forms at 16th level.
And Twin Eidolons at 20th, for that matter.
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The greatsword costs it that shield bonus.Not if the shield is animated.
Um, yes, even then. You might want to take another look at the animated special ability.
And Jason's point would still need to be addressed - what does the summoner look like, defense-wise, because you can just pound on whichever one is weaker to get at the other.Yes, that's a point, but remember that among other things, the summoner has invisibility and greater invisibility on his spell list, and he can swap spaces with his Eidolon 4 times a day. With a more defensive/close combat focused Eidolon, attacking the Summoner in melee could be a big mistake (transpose with the Eidolon, Eidolon attacks and grapples, you're now boned).
That would be an interesting strategy, actually. Hmm....
Merge Forms at 16th level.And Twin Eidolons at 20th, for that matter.
Merge forms costs you the biggest advantage that you have from a pet: doubled action economy. In this particular case, you probably wouldn't even have the option of spellcasting, with the monstrously large ACF you'd be dealing with.
And Twin Eidolons is all well and good, but it's not going to duplicate the armor or the shield, so you're not anywhere near as unhittable as your fully-kitted-out little buddy. This is not really a recipe for Teh Win.
Um, yes, even then. You might want to take another look at the animated special ability.The greatsword costs it that shield bonus.Not if the shield is animated.
The entire point of animated is that it doesn't take up a hand slot while animated. You still take proficiency penalties and so on, but you have a free hand.
And, regardless, you could easily just swap out one of the Evolutions for another Limbs (Arms) and be able to wield a greatsword, a longsword, and a heavy shield.
Life Bond and Life link, one won't die as long as other is up, and then there's the ease of healing what can almost be like two life totals merged into one. They get a good selection of defensive buff spells on their list.
And I have a feeling Simulacrum causes any damage you take to transfer to pet.
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The entire point of animated is that it doesn't take up a hand slot while animated. You still take proficiency penalties and so on, but you have a free hand.Um, yes, even then. You might want to take another look at the animated special ability.The greatsword costs it that shield bonus.Not if the shield is animated.
For 50% of the time. For the other 50%, you either drop the greatsword or lose the shield. Animated is no longer the have-your-shield-cake-and-eat-damage-too that it used to be (thank the heavens).
And, regardless, you could easily just swap out one of the Evolutions for another Limbs (Arms) and be able to wield a greatsword, a longsword, and a heavy shield.
That, on the other hand, is a good fix. Probably a better build overall, in fact. I'd restat to include that option and see where it takes you.
Yes they can. Up their intelligence to 3 and they can take any feat they can physically accomplish.With an intelligence of 3 they are no longer animals, and no longer viable as animal companions.
Where is that rule at? The core does not say I can boost any stat except Int or I lose my animal companion.
Animated shield are not as valuable as they were in 3.5. They have a very limited duration now.
PrD
Animated: As a move action, an animated shield can be loosed to defend its wielder on its own. For the following 4 rounds, the shield grants its bonus to the one who loosed it and then drops...Once a shield has been retrieved, it cannot be animated again for at least 4 rounds.
That means you lose all the AC of the shield unless you grab it on your own. If you pick it up it provokes an AoO, and even then you have to wait 4 more rounds to use it.
edit: ninja'd by Shisumo
Where is that rule at? The core does not say I can boost any stat except Int or I lose my animal companion.Bestiary, page 307. "no creature with an intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".
Skills: This lists the animal's total skill ranks. Animal companions can assign skill ranks to any skill listed under Animal Skills. If an animal companion increases its Intelligence to 10 or higher, it gains bonus skill ranks as normal. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can purchase ranks in any skill. An animal companion cannot have more ranks in a skill than it has Hit Dice.
This is why I asked the last question. Obviously the animal companion is an exception to the rule
Where is that rule at? The core does not say I can boost any stat except Int or I lose my animal companion.Yes they can. Up their intelligence to 3 and they can take any feat they can physically accomplish.With an intelligence of 3 they are no longer animals, and no longer viable as animal companions.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that animal companions can indeed gain extra Int.
This is why I asked the last question. Obviously the animal companion is an exception to the rule
Not so obvious: paladin mounts use the AC rules and explicitly have higher intelligence than normal.
Regardless, it's pretty far off-topic and has little to do with the Summoner playtest.
This is why I asked the last question. Obviously the animal companion is an exception to the ruleNot so obvious: paladin mounts use the AC rules and explicitly have higher intelligence than normal.
Regardless, it's pretty far off-topic and has little to do with the Summoner playtest.
I was saying its obvious because the druid animal section states it, but you are right now that the issue is settled we can get back to the possible issues with the summon to make sure it stays reasonable in the game.
With +2 natural armor base, +5 through size growths, +16 through levels, the ability to take heavy armor and shields, and up to +10 more natural armor from evolutions, it's way, way easy to make Eidolons into invincible targets. Without even using the natural armor evolution, a level 20 Summoner's Huge Biped Eidolon can have a 55 AC (10 base, +14 from +5 full plate, +7 from +5 heavy shield, +23 natural, +3 dex, -2 size). If you wanted to really trick it out you could add rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, deflecting weapons, the natural armor evolutions, the improved natural armor and dodge feats, etc etc. I bet you could get a 80 AC Eidolon without making too big a dent in your level 20 cash. Nothing can touch that kind of AC.
My recommendation is to either reduce the natural armor bonuses, or drop the ability to wear armor.
To be honest i was surprised that they allowed the NA bonus to be raised higher with the evolution points, i'd take that ability out completely or not allow it to be combined with the armor wearing bonus. i just know some rule mongering fool is going to use it to kill the game.
To be honest i was surprised that they allowed the NA bonus to be raised higher with the evolution points, i'd take that ability out completely or not allow it to be combined with the armor wearing bonus. i just know some rule mongering fool is going to use it to kill the game.With +2 natural armor base, +5 through size growths, +16 through levels, the ability to take heavy armor and shields, and up to +10 more natural armor from evolutions, it's way, way easy to make Eidolons into invincible targets. Without even using the natural armor evolution, a level 20 Summoner's Huge Biped Eidolon can have a 55 AC (10 base, +14 from +5 full plate, +7 from +5 heavy shield, +23 natural, +3 dex, -2 size). If you wanted to really trick it out you could add rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, deflecting weapons, the natural armor evolutions, the improved natural armor and dodge feats, etc etc. I bet you could get a 80 AC Eidolon without making too big a dent in your level 20 cash. Nothing can touch that kind of AC.
My recommendation is to either reduce the natural armor bonuses, or drop the ability to wear armor.
I am going to be messing around with it to try to make to see how easily I can get a ridiculous AC.
I will shoot for an AC of 70 when I get a chance.
Where is that rule at? The core does not say I can boost any stat except Int or I lose my animal companion.Bestiary, page 307. "no creature with an intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal".Skills: This lists the animal's total skill ranks. Animal companions can assign skill ranks to any skill listed under Animal Skills. If an animal companion increases its Intelligence to 10 or higher, it gains bonus skill ranks as normal. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can purchase ranks in any skill. An animal companion cannot have more ranks in a skill than it has Hit Dice.
This is why I asked the last question. Obviously the animal companion is an exception to the rule
I asked that question a while ago
Go to link
I removed a post. Please don't ruin posts that have something to say by cramming some petty name calling into them.
Whose giving eidolons and animal companions items? That's pretty silly and is just blatant min/maxing. Eidolons can't use armor, weapons, magic items etc. As a DM I might let one use an item on certain occasions giving proper RP or situational justification.
But equipping your pet/eidolon like a 2nd PC? No no... that's just cheating. ;)
Eidolons can't use armor, weapons, magic items etc.
Really? Then why do they have an evolution that lets them learn the Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor Proficiency and Shield Proficiency feats for free, and an evolution that lets them be proficient with all simple and martial weapons?
I'm sorry, you're wrong, it's intended, and not cheating.
Not to mention, have you ever heard of "barding"? There's rules for it in the core rulebook, and horses used as mounts in combat have been barded for the last 2,000 years, in real life.
Eidolons can't use armor, weapons, magic items etc.Really? Then why do they have an evolution that lets them learn the Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor Proficiency and Shield Proficiency feats for free, and an evolution that lets them be proficient with all simple and martial weapons?
I'm sorry, you're wrong, it's intended, and not cheating.
Not to mention, have you ever heard of "barding"? There's rules for it in the core rulebook, and horses used as mounts in combat have been barded for the last 2,000 years, in real life.
Yea I am going to go with zurai on this one. Magic armor and weapons are certainly allowed. If you can use armor and weapons you can use their magic counterparts.
The other things are less clear. Can an animal companion or a eidolon wear a necklace? How about a belt? Does it depend on the form of the eidolon? I personally dont know how I would rule, i guess i would have to feel it out. My convention with animal companions was always that they could wear magic armor and also had a single magic item slot that could be eihter neclace, cloak or belt.
Barding is one thing. Having an animal companion swing around greatswords of +3 ghost slaying is when things get silly. :P
Anyway back to Ediolon, if they can gain the proficency then yup, they can use it. No problems there. Not before that though and nothing past any earned proficencies can provide. 2 cents :)
Barding is one thing. Having an animal companion swing around greatswords of +3 ghost slaying is when things get silly. :P
Anyway back to Ediolon, if they can gain the proficency then yup, they can use it. No problems there. Not before that though and nothing past any earned proficencies can provide. 2 cents :)
Well like i said i've allowed a single magic item, and honestly if the druid wants to shell out the money for a +4 amulet of mighty fists for their animal i would probably let them.
As for proficiencies, I would have thought it was obvious they needed the profficiency first.
Edit: As an aside I have seen an animal companion use weapons. An awakened ape that took the profficiency feats a few campains back. To be honest it wasnt that bad, and it was very cool conceptually. Always freaked the villagers out when the armor wearing greataxe swinging monkey started talking. I dont think there was anything rediculous about it as the improved natural attack feat instead of weapon profficiencey could have yielded better overall results.
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Barding is one thing. Having an animal companion swing around greatswords of +3 ghost slaying is when things get silly. :P
Anyway back to Ediolon, if they can gain the proficency then yup, they can use it. No problems there. Not before that though and nothing past any earned proficencies can provide. 2 cents :)
A touch off topic, but what about an ape animal companion using that sword?
All it takes is upping its INT from 2 to 3 when it gets an ability score increase, and then giving it the appropriate weapon proficiency since an ape is certainly capable of wielding a sword.But that is just my two cents.
I don't see any trouble in a guy investing all his points and equipment in AC, and getting some epic Ac. He would still be vulnerable to other things. The summoner himself would be pretty badly equiped and vulnerable.
A wizard of the same level can make himself impossible to hit with normal attacks, and still disintegrate people.
Anyway, if you see some epic AC 20ft guy, just look for the summoner, and you'll win.
Anyway, if you see some epic AC 20ft guy, just look for the summoner, and you'll win.
And if the Summoner is invisible? Or encased in a hemispherical wall of ice? Or flying 100' above his Eidolon? Or merged with the Eidolon? Or is a copy of the Eidolon? Or the Eidolon is Large or Huge and blocking a 5'-10' (for Large) or 10-15' (for Huge) hallway?
If you're fighting a 20lvl guy, I believe you are prepared for some searching or dispeling. If you don't find him, just banish the eidolon.
Dismissal and Banishment seem to work fairly well against Eidolons, or is there something I'm missing here?
A few things, yes.
First, dismissal and banishment both allow Will saves, which two of the three Eidolon bases have as a good save.
Second, they both allow spell resistance, which is available to Eidolons.
Third, spell turning and protection from spells are on the Summoner class list and can be shared with their Eidolon.
Fourth, things that have to hit AC to do their job don't generally have access to dismissal or banishment, so saying "The answer to your Tarrasque not being able to hit the Eidolon is having it cast dismissal" is a bit ... silly.
There are things that wont be hit by your tarrasque as well. A cleric, a wizard or even a bard can avoid it.