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Summoner and Witch Playtest


Round 2 - Summoner and Witch

51 to 100 of 191 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Cheliax

I can't find the other post, so I'll put it here instead. While I think that the base claws evolution on the bipedal form should be considered a primary attack, I think that the claws evolution should stay a secondary attack form( Jason mentioned possibly changing this I think ). Currently at 1st level your eidolon could be a quadraped with claw, claw, pounce and get 5 attacks per round including round 1 with a charge.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Tales Subscriber

summoner sounds a tad powerfull as stated profuselly above. And I agree the witch needs direction. It just seems to be there without really doing anything. The spell list just doesn't seem to mean anything to me even with the familiar dependent bonus spells. There just isn't any real power (at least damage) unless you take a viper familiar. The hexes start off a little, eh blah, and as pointed out with the weakest BAB and no armor training how long is a witch expected to live trying to deliver those hexes. The hexes seem to be more all or nothing, and still most at early levels only encure penalties and not much else. Also, I thought the familiar was supposed to powerfull, not just the source of power but something to actually be feared, not an eidolon mind, but at least worth lugging around for more than just a spellbook. A wizard doesn't need to feed his spellbook.

Cheliax

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
Mr.Fishy wrote:
The witch class is perfect for my wife and the summoner and witch would make awesome villians.
Kind of awesomely, all six of our new iconics look like they could be awesome villains.

Sarah and Wayne seem to have great rapport! :)

Seriously, I, too, think that Witch, Orcale and Summoner all make for great villains! In fact, I immediately thought of a adventure featuring a coven with two witches and a sea hag... and the younger of the witches could have charmed a cavalier to protect them. Hmmm... and the elder witch could have used 'Nightmares' hex on a local high priest (namely, the paladin PC's mentor in my campaign). Yeah, maybe I'll postpone the planned events in my campaign's metaplot/story to run this during the next session! :)


My gm ruled that casting spells while merged with the Eidolon with the level 16 summoner ability Merge Forms uses the Eidolon's standard action. Was this intended to be the case?


couple questions

1.improved natural attack feat stack with improve damage(ex) evolution?

2. If I have claws(ex) , Rend(ex) claws, Grab(ex) claws If I make attacks and both claws hit do I rend then grapple?


XaOsEcT wrote:
My gm ruled that casting spells while merged with the Eidolon with the level 16 summoner ability Merge Forms uses the Eidolon's standard action. Was this intended to be the case?

Don't you count as only one creature for the duration and thus have only one round of actions per round?


I did start a thread, but I thought I would have a better chance at an 'offical' response here.

Starting gold for the new classes is not listed. It seems that bard is the best pick for summoner starting gold, but I was hoping one of the bosses could tell me.


Mahrdol wrote:

couple questions

1.improved natural attack feat stack with improve damage(ex) evolution?

2. If I have claws(ex) , Rend(ex) claws, Grab(ex) claws If I make attacks and both claws hit do I rend then grapple?

1. It would seem that it would. A number of 'evolutions' are in essence feats disguised.

2. If you have grab (the old improved grab) with an attack you need to start it immediately after the attack, not after all of your attacks.

To whit (in 3.5) a brown bear would be able to attack a medium opponent with first claw #1, and on a hit make a grab attempt; if it failed then with claw #2, if that hit then grab attempt #2, and if that failed then a bite. If any of the grabs succeeded then the rest of the natural attacks would end (baring an attempt at -20 for the bear not to be grappled).

-James


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I read the Summoner & was reminded of Pokemon, lol.


I just wrote up a giant post (3-4 pages, at least) on last night's game where we all played an oracle, a cavalier and a summoner. I wrote up my observations, transposed the eidolon's stats and everything, put up a detailed play-by-play and....

... the forums deleted it when I clicked Preview Post.

Well, I'm not re-writing it. Awesome.

Cheliax

SecSiebzehn wrote:

I just wrote up a giant post (3-4 pages, at least) on last night's game where we all played an oracle, a cavalier and a summoner. I wrote up my observations, transposed the eidolon's stats and everything, put up a detailed play-by-play and....

... the forums deleted it when I clicked Preview Post.

Well, I'm not re-writing it. Awesome.

... the back button is your friend! It has saved my posts quite a few times.


Draeke Raefel wrote:
SecSiebzehn wrote:

I just wrote up a giant post (3-4 pages, at least) on last night's game where we all played an oracle, a cavalier and a summoner. I wrote up my observations, transposed the eidolon's stats and everything, put up a detailed play-by-play and....

... the forums deleted it when I clicked Preview Post.

Well, I'm not re-writing it. Awesome.

... the back button is your friend! It has saved my posts quite a few times.

The first thing I did was mash back, but it was gone. I don't even know what happened-- I wrote it all out in a new post, clicked preview and immediately jumped to the end of a completely different thread. I'm searching through my history hoping something saved it, but it looks like no dice.

Taldor

SecSiebzehn wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:
SecSiebzehn wrote:

I just wrote up a giant post (3-4 pages, at least) on last night's game where we all played an oracle, a cavalier and a summoner. I wrote up my observations, transposed the eidolon's stats and everything, put up a detailed play-by-play and....

... the forums deleted it when I clicked Preview Post.

Well, I'm not re-writing it. Awesome.

... the back button is your friend! It has saved my posts quite a few times.
The first thing I did was mash back, but it was gone. I don't even know what happened-- I wrote it all out in a new post, clicked preview and immediately jumped to the end of a completely different thread. I'm searching through my history hoping something saved it, but it looks like no dice.

What happened is something you don't learn about till you've been on the forums for a while, basically there's a glitch that the server resets regularly and if you are writing a post while the server resets your post gets lost. As far as I know there's no fix for it, your best bet is on any long post or anytime you write a post that theres a lot of time between hitting the post button and the submit button (say you got up and made a sandwich then came back and finished the post) just copy the text before you hit submit.


I just realized something that really takes a lot of power out of the eidolon later on. Unless you take arms and magic weapons for each arm the only way for them to bypass damage reduction is magic fang.


xJoe3x wrote:
I just realized something that really takes a lot of power out of the eidolon later on. Unless you take arms and magic weapons for each arm the only way for them to bypass damage reduction is magic fang.

There's a 1-point evolution that grants them the ability to bypass DR/magic and DR/alignment. EDIT: Also, amulet of mighty fists. Which is intended to work with monsters (see: natural attack bonus), so should work with Eidolons regardless.

Cheliax

xJoe3x wrote:
I just realized something that really takes a lot of power out of the eidolon later on. Unless you take arms and magic weapons for each arm the only way for them to bypass damage reduction is magic fang.

Certain forms, yes. magic and alignment dr can be breached through magic attacks evolution.


Draeke Raefel wrote:
xJoe3x wrote:
I just realized something that really takes a lot of power out of the eidolon later on. Unless you take arms and magic weapons for each arm the only way for them to bypass damage reduction is magic fang.
Certain forms, yes. magic and alignment dr can be breached through magic attacks evolution.

Nevermind, I completely missed that one. Sorry, thanks for correcting me.


SecSiebzehn wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:
SecSiebzehn wrote:

I just wrote up a giant post (3-4 pages, at least) on last night's game where we all played an oracle, a cavalier and a summoner. I wrote up my observations, transposed the eidolon's stats and everything, put up a detailed play-by-play and....

... the forums deleted it when I clicked Preview Post.

Well, I'm not re-writing it. Awesome.

... the back button is your friend! It has saved my posts quite a few times.
The first thing I did was mash back, but it was gone. I don't even know what happened-- I wrote it all out in a new post, clicked preview and immediately jumped to the end of a completely different thread. I'm searching through my history hoping something saved it, but it looks like no dice.

I always copy the text before I hit submit.


The Eidolon does seem a little OP in early levels, I'm playing a lvl 5 summoner in my current campaign, the Eidolon I made is serpentine with 6 tentacle attacks as well as the base attacks (Bite and Tail Slap) along with Energy Attack. This combine with Multiattack, Weapon Finesse and Imp. Natural Attack (Tentacle) leads to an Eidolon with 8 attacks each dealing 1d6 + 1d6 Energy Damage (Any type chosen), and thats before the +2 damage on the Primary Attack and the +1 on the Secondary's. +9 Attack roll on Bite and +7 on all others (Thanks to Multiattack).

That might be a little OP... He is fun though. Very fun.

Cheliax

Wasn't Jason supposed to be posting some Summoner specific tweaks to the forums yesterday?


Draeke Raefel wrote:
Wasn't Jason supposed to be posting some Summoner specific tweaks to the forums yesterday?

He was, must have gotten delayed, hopefully we will see it today.

Andoran

He must have been Summoned to something more important. Probably 6 of his closest friends needed his presence on another plane of existence.


BlueSpider wrote:

The Eidolon does seem a little OP in early levels, I'm playing a lvl 5 summoner in my current campaign, the Eidolon I made is serpentine with 6 tentacle attacks as well as the base attacks (Bite and Tail Slap) along with Energy Attack. This combine with Multiattack, Weapon Finesse and Imp. Natural Attack (Tentacle) leads to an Eidolon with 8 attacks each dealing 1d6 + 1d6 Energy Damage (Any type chosen), and thats before the +2 damage on the Primary Attack and the +1 on the Secondary's. +9 Attack roll on Bite and +7 on all others (Thanks to Multiattack).

That might be a little OP... He is fun though. Very fun.

ya that is pretty crazy. Druids can also wild shape in giant octopus and get crazy attacks like that too and have an animal companion but at a higher level

getting energy attack for 8 attacks for only 2 EP seems a little cheap.


Mahrdol wrote:
BlueSpider wrote:

The Eidolon does seem a little OP in early levels, I'm playing a lvl 5 summoner in my current campaign, the Eidolon I made is serpentine with 6 tentacle attacks as well as the base attacks (Bite and Tail Slap) along with Energy Attack. This combine with Multiattack, Weapon Finesse and Imp. Natural Attack (Tentacle) leads to an Eidolon with 8 attacks each dealing 1d6 + 1d6 Energy Damage (Any type chosen), and thats before the +2 damage on the Primary Attack and the +1 on the Secondary's. +9 Attack roll on Bite and +7 on all others (Thanks to Multiattack).

That might be a little OP... He is fun though. Very fun.

ya that is pretty crazy. Druids can also wild shape in giant octopus and get crazy attacks like that too and have an animal companion but at a higher level

getting energy attack for 8 attacks for only 2 EP seems a little cheap.

Yeah it is more than a little cheap, my DM asked me to try and minmax the hell out of the class, so I'm checking ways to overpower it before using the Spell-Like summons. 16d6 at level 5 seems to have done that so far. Though it does mitigate it a bit since you have to roll attack for each of the 8 2d6 attacks. Still averages about 6d6 to 9d6 a round in damage. Added with the fact that I took Martial Weapon Proficiency (Guisarme) for the human feat, Combat Expertise, and Imp Trip. I sit at the back end of the Eidolon, anything with 2 legs has almost no chance.


Mahrdol wrote:
BlueSpider wrote:

The Eidolon does seem a little OP in early levels, I'm playing a lvl 5 summoner in my current campaign, the Eidolon I made is serpentine with 6 tentacle attacks as well as the base attacks (Bite and Tail Slap) along with Energy Attack. This combine with Multiattack, Weapon Finesse and Imp. Natural Attack (Tentacle) leads to an Eidolon with 8 attacks each dealing 1d6 + 1d6 Energy Damage (Any type chosen), and thats before the +2 damage on the Primary Attack and the +1 on the Secondary's. +9 Attack roll on Bite and +7 on all others (Thanks to Multiattack).

That might be a little OP... He is fun though. Very fun.

ya that is pretty crazy. Druids can also wild shape in giant octopus and get crazy attacks like that too and have an animal companion but at a higher level

getting energy attack for 8 attacks for only 2 EP seems a little cheap.

Not really, high damage yes. But ignored everything else. Its serpent, most things can run circles around it. With all the specing into tentacles I can't think the AC is going to be anything to worry about.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

xJoe3x wrote:
[Not really, high damage yes. But ignored everything else. Its serpent, most things can run circles around it. With all the specing into tentacles I can't think the AC is going to be anything to worry about.

It can get pretty silly. My current level 5 testing eidolon looks like this:

Jack 2.1
Quadrupedal (at one point) Eidolon 5
N Medium outsider
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
Defense
AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 18 (+3 dex, +4 natural armor, +4 mage armor)
hp 49 (6d10+12)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +1
Offense
Speed 40 ft.
Melee: bite +9 (d6+3 plus d6 acid and d6 electric), 6 claws +10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10 (d6+3 plus d6 acid and d6 electric)
Special attacks: pounce
Statistics
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +6; CMB +9; CMD 22
Feats: Weapon Focus (claws), Improved Natural Attack (claws), Power Attack
Skills: Fly +8, Perception +9, Sense Motive +9, Use Magic Device +9
Languages: Whatever
Evolutions: bite, limbs (legs) x2 - claws x3, limbs (arms), energy attacks (acid), pounce
Equipment: shocking Amulet of Mighty Fists

It pounces on you, and has seven attacks, all of which do 3d6+3 damage. It's generally laying down about 40 damage on the pounce against CR 5 foes. I've been pondering just going with the +1 amulet and power attacking, however; the damage ends up being comparable on the pounce. I dunno.


A Man In Black wrote:
xJoe3x wrote:
[Not really, high damage yes. But ignored everything else. Its serpent, most things can run circles around it. With all the specing into tentacles I can't think the AC is going to be anything to worry about.

It can get pretty silly. My current level 5 testing eidolon looks like this:

Jack 2.1
Quadrupedal (at one point) Eidolon 5
N Medium outsider
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
Defense
AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 18 (+3 dex, +4 natural armor, +4 mage armor)
hp 49 (6d10+12)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +1
Offense
Speed 40 ft.
Melee: bite +9 (d6+3 plus d6 acid and d6 electric), 4 claws +10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10 (d6+3 plus d6 acid and d6 electric)
Special attacks: pounce
Statistics
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +6; CMB +9; CMD 22
Feats: Weapon Focus (claws), Improved Natural Attack (claws), Power Attack
Skills: Fly +8, Perception +9, Sense Motive +9, Use Magic Device +9
Languages: Whatever
Evolutions: bite, limbs (legs) x2 - claws x3, limbs (arms), energy attacks (acid), pounce
Equipment: shocking Amulet of Mighty Fists

It pounces on you, and has seven attacks, all of which do 3d6+3 damage. It's generally laying down about 40 damage on the pounce against CR 5 foes. I've been pondering just going with the +1 amulet and power attacking, however; the damage ends up being comparable on the pounce. I dunno.

Claws are secondary, no?

Since magic items seem to be up in the air I would just say they can't use them as a good fix, that would even it out just fine.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

xJoe3x wrote:

Claws are secondary, no?

Since magic items seem to be up in the air I would just say they can't use them as a good fix, that would even it out just fine.

Apparently they aren't, according to one of the rule posts floating around, here. I feel they should be secondary, but it's not my call. If they are, then I'd need to reshuffle that build to use Multiattack.


A Man In Black wrote:


Apparently they aren't, according to one of the rule posts floating around, here. I feel they should be secondary, but it's not my call. If they are, then I'd need to reshuffle that build to use Multiattack.

Ah opps, didn't read that one. I don't really have an opinion on that.


It was brought up because making claws secondary leaves Biped Eidolons with no primary attacks, which makes them suck in melee combat unless you spend evolution points on it, unlike the other two. Jason said "oops, you're right, they should be primary" or something to that effect, but he may have meant something different than how I interpreted it. I'm 90% sure it's in the Round 2 Rules Questions thread if someone more interested than me wants to look it up to verify (the claws aren't the brokenness in this build, pounce and energy damage is).

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Zurai wrote:
It was brought up because making claws secondary leaves Biped Eidolons with no primary attacks, which makes them suck in melee combat unless you spend evolution points on it, unlike the other two. Jason said "oops, you're right, they should be primary" or something to that effect, but he may have meant something different than how I interpreted it. I'm 90% sure it's in the Round 2 Rules Questions thread if someone more interested than me wants to look it up to verify (the claws aren't the brokenness in this build, pounce and energy damage is).

The brokenness in the build is being able to buy seven natural attacks with points left over. Energy attacks isn't any more broken than +2 str. I suspect that tentacles and claws are way too cheap.


A Man In Black wrote:
Zurai wrote:
It was brought up because making claws secondary leaves Biped Eidolons with no primary attacks, which makes them suck in melee combat unless you spend evolution points on it, unlike the other two. Jason said "oops, you're right, they should be primary" or something to that effect, but he may have meant something different than how I interpreted it. I'm 90% sure it's in the Round 2 Rules Questions thread if someone more interested than me wants to look it up to verify (the claws aren't the brokenness in this build, pounce and energy damage is).
The brokenness in the build is being able to buy seven natural attacks with points left over. Energy attacks isn't any more broken than +2 str. I suspect that tentacles and claws are way too cheap.

Or they just need a #/lvl like some of the other traits. I think that would be a good solution if magic items were not taken away.

Cheliax

I'm wondering if the incorporation of an increase in cost after the initial purchase wouldn't fix that problem and thereby eventually make something like that not impossible, but not cost effective. So when purchasing claws the first set is at the initial cost but then increases beyond that; let's say 1x number of claws. That would mean in the above example of Jack 2.1 the first set of claws would cost 1, the second 2, and so on, resulting in a final cost of 10 points to get four claw attacks. Not do-able at fifth level and a little more in line with the party.

Something like this will keep the creature in line and balanced if you think about it. Jack 2.1 would now have at most 3 claw attacks (6 pts) with limbs (arms)finishing out the remaining 2 points. A lot more balanced as you can see, but leaves it open for higher levels to start going nuts with extra limbs. A level 20 summoner could create a 4 claw Eidolon and still have 12 points to spend on other abilities.

Just a thought.


My 2 cents.

I love the concept. Both classes have awesome flavor. My thing with the summoner is more a personal thing than anything else. I would say summoner is the wrong term for this incarnation. Alienest seems a more appropriate term because the eidelon reminds me of a psionic entity more so than a summoned creature. It doesnt seem to come from any know or set plane and has no stigma if its evil or good its just is.

I think you might be better going with a perma beefy summon monster that is themed by type. Elemental angelic demonic. Every few levels give the players a few new summonables to choose from. I.E. Demonic summoner at level 5 shadow demon(high dex sneaky stabby type),sulfer eater(more beefy and fighter style monster), etc. Have the evolutions become forced pacts in the case of a demonic caster that give you points in the demon category thay can be added when summoned by weaving magic into the summoning. I.E. Speak the name of the fiend (2pts of forced pact, monster get +4 vs banishment and you can speak to it telepathically because during the casting you spoke its true name) Call on the winds of ghenna(4pts of forced pact, when you open the gate and summon the demon you open a link to ghenna infusing the demon with its droning winds +2 categories of flight skill or flight if the monster doesnt have it and +4 to all concentration checks for verbal spellcasting in 100ft) You could have summoners get more points if they stayed in their specialty and each category has choices. This will reduce on super built monster twinking and give players an I can't wait till 18th level I will be calling on Srayter Higlotum the bleeding eyed ancient demon of hate.

As for feats have feats focus on the casters link to his summoned creatures.

Guiding light
feat level 8 requirement wis 16 angelic summoner
Whenever you have an angelic summoned creature you eminate a light halo of light giving off light as a torch and giving you and allies in 15 feet of you or your pet +2 on fear and enchantment spells.

I like the spell list for the summoner. If a GM is not running hey one fight today and then done your summoner shouldn't be blowing every spell in a combat. The only spell I saw that made me go ick was haste at second level spells.

Lastly you could reduce magic item use by making the spellcaster have to wear the item or make the calling spell interfere with magic items.


What really gets me is people focus heavily on making the huge monstrous eidolons with hoopty abilities and say they are overpowered. Many of the problems raised seem to be based on ideal situations where 1) the summoner has his/her eidolon hanging out, and 2) the summoner is prepared for the combat.

I can say it is incredibly rare that our characters find ourselves in a situation where we know exactly when a combat is going to happen within minutes and have time to buff up. Only spells I ever cast ahead of time are hour per level duration spells. Most of the time it is a situation where everyone makes perception rolls and if you are lucky you are not surprised in the round and at least have the opportunity to act.

Now I would really like to see the people coming up with these monstrosities wander into a city with their eidolons. Even better, what if you are in a city-based campaign? Many of these power builds with dragon-like or demonic looking creatures just are not feasible to be walking around with.

So when your party gets ambushed in the city, the summoner is now subject to the it would take a minute to summon their eidolon. Of course by that point the combat is either done, or close to it. And that would be if the summoner decided they were goign to try and sit there and summon and hope no one attacks them (like that would happen).

I can tell you my first action in that situation is not to use the summon monster SLA. It would be cast Invisibility (or greater Invis if high enough level) so I don't get smacked. Then maybe I would cast a summon monster SLA. Or maybe use battlefield control spells. I just don't see the viability of sitting and summoning moster after monster. That is just plain silly in a party in my opinion. I would rather throw up some walls or take a few archery feats and plink away while greater invised. Which is why the d8's and medium BAB are good things for this class.

Let's be honest here, any wizard or cleric worth their salt can buff up the party, prepare the right attack/defense spells, and cast summon spells for any prepared combat where they know the foe can dictate the location of the fight and wipe the floor with any opponent. The reality is that is rare.

Yes if a summoner were to throw out summon monster after summon monster it slows down game time. I have almost never come across a scenario where that is really practical.

One other thing on eidolons is I think they should get treated like a paladin's mount or the animal companions in that they could wear magical armor or even weapons (if they have hands), but items like rings, boots, necklaces, headbands, etc really shouldn't be available. Otherwise, everyone would want a biped so they could load up on magic items to make super-buff eidolons. I also think it opens up to many issues with I could put horseshoes of speed on a quadruped if it had hooves. But if it is a cat or dog type...uh booties...right. But my biped, boots of speed yep give me those. That's not right in my opinion.


For the game I'm in, I made a draconic looking medium sized eidolon to use as a mount. Of course, it's a somewhat different game in that the 'usual races' were wiped in a series of wars, so the norms are a bit different.

I really need to commission a picture of a kobold riding a green dragon.

But it has Bite, Claws, and Energy Attack.

Not an amorphous horror with dozens of tentacles out of an asian schoolgirls nightmares, dropping with acid and poison, lurking in the underbrush to ambush any pesky adventureers.

Though that sounds like a rather freaky encounter...

Cheliax

I think Jason's claws comment was that the original claws evolution for Bipedal should specify that it is a primary attack, but claws in general are secondary attacks. At least, that's what I'd do.


Spaceman Biff wrote:

What really gets me is people focus heavily on making the huge monstrous eidolons with hoopty abilities and say they are overpowered. Many of the problems raised seem to be based on ideal situations where 1) the summoner has his/her eidolon hanging out, and 2) the summoner is prepared for the combat.

I can say it is incredibly rare that our characters find ourselves in a situation where we know exactly when a combat is going to happen within minutes and have time to buff up. Only spells I ever cast ahead of time are hour per level duration spells. Most of the time it is a situation where everyone makes perception rolls and if you are lucky you are not surprised in the round and at least have the opportunity to act.

Now I would really like to see the people coming up with these monstrosities wander into a city with their eidolons. Even better, what if you are in a city-based campaign? Many of these power builds with dragon-like or demonic looking creatures just are not feasible to be walking around with.

So when your party gets ambushed in the city, the summoner is now subject to the it would take a minute to summon their eidolon. Of course by that point the combat is either done, or close to it. And that would be if the summoner decided they were goign to try and sit there and summon and hope no one attacks them (like that would happen).

I can tell you my first action in that situation is not to use the summon monster SLA. It would be cast Invisibility (or greater Invis if high enough level) so I don't get smacked. Then maybe I would cast a summon monster SLA. Or maybe use battlefield control spells. I just don't see the viability of sitting and summoning moster after monster. That is just plain silly in a party in my opinion. I would rather throw up some walls or take a few archery feats and plink away while greater invised. Which is why the d8's and medium BAB are good things for this class.

Let's be honest here, any wizard or cleric worth their salt can buff up the party, prepare...

I noticed that too. They put the summoner in idea situation with the summons and try to make it look like more than what it is. If I get to play a caster, and you let me know what's around the corner I could make it look a lot easier than it should be also.


The eiodolon SHOULD be spending the majority of the time in the material plane. It has no duration. Granted, if it looks like a horror from beyond, you are going to have serious roleplaying penalties when it comes to interacting with the NPC's who shoot first and sort the bodies later.

But that is the price you pay for pet sitting for Cthulu.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
QOShea wrote:

The eiodolon SHOULD be spending the majority of the time in the material plane. It has no duration. Granted, if it looks like a horror from beyond, you are going to have serious roleplaying penalties when it comes to interacting with the NPC's who shoot first and sort the bodies later.

But that is the price you pay for pet sitting for Cthulu.

I'm going to quote this back to you when you get upset because the swamp villagers fired a volley of arrows at your pet green dragon eidelon rather than welcoming you in with curious stares.

Silver Crusade

I have always loved Shaper and Constructor because being able to summon customized minions is endlessly useful.

Summoner may finally be giving me an arcane alternative that is even better in some ways!

I love the summoner, although I haven't had a chance to playtest it yet. It will be interesting to see how they compare to a Shaper/Constructor (One tough eidolon, customized but not changeable effectively summonable for all day once a day, with several minutes-long summons for additional utility and combat use, compared to on-the-fly customized constructs that are weaker and don't last as long, hmm...)

I just started playing a Shaper in a PF game at level 1... I'm going to make a Summoner version of the character and then consider asking my GM to switch, partly to try the new class and partly because at first level constructs that last one round are kind of useless.

The Witch pleasantly surprised me -- the concept of 'witch' occupies a flavor niche I wouldn't normally play, but when I read the rules I liked them, I would seriously consider one for a hedge wizard type character.

Minor quibble: The scroll is consumed even if the witch's familiar fails to learn it? Perhaps if the scroll is going to be consumed, the familiar should just automatically learn it successfully? Could be seen as making up for them not being able to copy spells from wizard books, and having a more limited spell list. (Although, the former depends on how common magic users of both types are in the setting...)


mdt wrote:
QOShea wrote:

The eiodolon SHOULD be spending the majority of the time in the material plane. It has no duration. Granted, if it looks like a horror from beyond, you are going to have serious roleplaying penalties when it comes to interacting with the NPC's who shoot first and sort the bodies later.

But that is the price you pay for pet sitting for Cthulu.

I'm going to quote this back to you when you get upset because the swamp villagers fired a volley of arrows at your pet green dragon eidelon rather than welcoming you in with curious stares.

That is obviously why Protection from Arrows is on the Summoner spell list.

Very useful spell when flying over silly peasants.

Besides, they would do it no matter WHAT color it was.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Another issue with large Eidolons. A lot of your time is going to be spent negotiating tight corridors and fighting in constricted spaces. Your large dragonlike Kikachu might have some problems, especially since you can only do the dismiss/resummon routine once per day.


mdt wrote:
QOShea wrote:

The eiodolon SHOULD be spending the majority of the time in the material plane. It has no duration. Granted, if it looks like a horror from beyond, you are going to have serious roleplaying penalties when it comes to interacting with the NPC's who shoot first and sort the bodies later.

But that is the price you pay for pet sitting for Cthulu.

I'm going to quote this back to you when you get upset because the swamp villagers fired a volley of arrows at your pet green dragon eidelon rather than welcoming you in with curious stares.

Eh... your Eidolon is intelligent and pretty tough, you have a telepathic bond with it and you can teleport it into an adjacent square past 6th level. You park him in a nice forest grove outside the village and he is available as a standard action with makers call.

It's pretty safe to say most Eidolons are spending 99% of their time on the material plane past 6th level. Prior to that? Maybe you have a point but I think most players are going to keep them handy. The telepathic bond makes it quite easy to stash them and call them or get to them in need.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:
mdt wrote:
QOShea wrote:

The eiodolon SHOULD be spending the majority of the time in the material plane. It has no duration. Granted, if it looks like a horror from beyond, you are going to have serious roleplaying penalties when it comes to interacting with the NPC's who shoot first and sort the bodies later.

But that is the price you pay for pet sitting for Cthulu.

I'm going to quote this back to you when you get upset because the swamp villagers fired a volley of arrows at your pet green dragon eidelon rather than welcoming you in with curious stares.

Eh... your Eidolon is intelligent and pretty tough, you have a telepathic bond with it and you can teleport it into an adjacent square past 6th level. You park him in a nice forest grove outside the village and he is available as a standard action with makers call.

It's pretty safe to say most Eidolons are spending 99% of their time on the material plane past 6th level. Prior to that? Maybe you have a point but I think most players are going to keep them handy. The telepathic bond makes it quite easy to stash them and call them or get to them in need.

As I understand the rule though even with Maker's Call the eidolon has to be within 100 feet of the summoner to not lose hit points. At least I would definitely rule it that way. Maker's call is nice but I don't read that as replacing the proximity requirement for hit point strength of the eidolon.


LazarX wrote:
Another issue with large Eidolons. A lot of your time is going to be spent negotiating tight corridors and fighting in constricted spaces. Your large dragonlike Kikachu might have some problems, especially since you can only do the dismiss/resummon routine once per day.

This is quite true, but you can park him and DDoor him to you once/ day at 6th level and twice/ day at 10th which can alleviate some of these issues.


Spaceman Biff wrote:
As I understand the rule though even with Maker's Call the eidolon has to be within 100 feet of the summoner to not lose hit points. At least I would definitely rule it that way. Maker's call is nice but I don't read that as replacing the proximity requirement for hit point strength of the eidolon.

Totally correct... Hmm, That does complicate things a lot. Makes it a trickier choice. Having him there in a standard but with 25% fewer HP, or having him summonable after a minute ritual.

I would take the HP hit because if I need him at full HP I can still summon him to me, dismiss him then re-summon him. In the mean time he is quickly available and still pretty tough. Worst case scenario with that is it takes 1 minute and 1 round to retrieve him at full HP (Dismiss him then summon him).


Spaceman Biff wrote:
As I understand the rule though even with Maker's Call the eidolon has to be within 100 feet of the summoner to not lose hit points. At least I would definitely rule it that way. Maker's call is nice but I don't read that as replacing the proximity requirement for hit point strength of the eidolon.

I think this is part of the issue. While I can't argue the flavor of the life link ability, I think the limits are far too harsh for out of combat. At upper levels, even a biped, humanoid eidolon is likely going to look out of place bringing it into town, and I don't want to have to use its evolution points for an SLA that can make it look like it belongs just so I don't immediately cut its HP, especially since that HP stays gone. If nothing else, the current HP should pop up to whatever percentage of the eidolon's max HP was remaining when the summoner comes back into range. The summoner doesn't have the ability to heal the eidolon, and the party healer shouldn't have to just because the eidolon couldn't come into town for the quick pit-stop.


LazarX wrote:
Another issue with large Eidolons. A lot of your time is going to be spent negotiating tight corridors and fighting in constricted spaces. Your large dragonlike Kikachu might have some problems, especially since you can only do the dismiss/resummon routine once per day.

Fortunately, since my Summoner is a kobold, his Eidolon is Medium-sized. I'm also going the melee route with this character, and will eventually take some 3.5 feats for tunnel fighting which will allow both the mount and my character to fight in an area they have to squeeze through.

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