tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Iron Mage
Role: Iron mages are warriors first and foremost, but they use magic to supplement their attacks and bolster defenses. Though individual specialties might vary, any iron mage is a stalwart ally in battle.
Starting Gold: As fighter (5d6x10).
Starting Age: As wizard.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die / BAB: d10 / Full
Good Saves: Fortitude, Will
Class Skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str)
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier
Spell progression as Paladin/Ranger.
1st: Arcane Strike, prestidigitation, school focus, witching 1
2nd: Warding 1
3rd: School power
4th: Read magic
5th: Warding 2, witching 2
6th: Low arcana 1
7th: School power
8th: Warding 3
9th: Low arcana 3
10th: Witching 3
11th: School power, warding 4
12th: Low arcana 3
13th: Greater warding
14th: Warding 5
15th: low arcana 4, witching 4
16th:
17th: Warding 6
18th:
19th: Greater witching
20th: High arcana, warding 7, witching 5
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Iron mages are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light and medium armor and shields (except tower shields). An iron mage does not incur the normal arcane spell failure chance from wearing light or medium armor, or from wearing a shield. Like any other arcane spellcaster, an iron mage wearing heavy armor incurs a chance of spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass iron mage still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Arcane Strike: At 1st level, an iron mage gains Arcane Strike as a bonus feat. He can use this feat despite not yet having a caster level. Extra damage gained from the Arcane Strike feat is equal to the iron mage's witching rank (see below) instead of being based on his caster level.
Prestidigitation (Sp): An iron mage can use prestidigitation as a spell-like ability at will. There is no caster level associated with this ability. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and the iron mage suffers a chance of failure if he attempts to use this ability in heavy armor.
School Focus: Every iron mage selects a primary school of arcane magic from which he draws the majority of his power. He may choose Abjuration, Evocation, Necromancy or Transmutation, and gains the benefits of the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats when casting iron mage spells from that school. When casting a spell from his school of focus, an iron mage gains a +3 bonus to his caster level (effectively causing his caster level to become equal to his iron mage level for spells of that school). At 3rd, 7th and 11th levels the iron mage gains additional powers from his school of focus.
Witching (Su): The iron mage imbues his attacks with arcane might. Whenever he activates Arcane Strike, his weapon delivers an additional effect depending on his school of focus. At 1st level he can imbue his weapon with witching of the first rank; for every 5 levels he attains, the iron mage gains another rank of witching, increasing its effects as specified in the school description.
Warding (Su): A 2nd level iron mage learns to weave magic into potent defenses. As a free action, he can raise a warding of the first rank which lasts for one round, gaining an effect depending on his school of focus. At 5th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the iron mage's warding improves by one rank, increasing its effects; see the individual school descriptions for details. At 2nd level he can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 6 + his Intelligence modifier. For each level he gains after 2nd, the iron mage can raise his warding for 2 additional rounds.
Read magic (Sp): At 4th level an iron mage can use read magic at will as a spell-like ability. His caster level for this ability is equal to his iron mage level - 3. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and the iron mage suffers a chance of failure if he attempts to use this ability in heavy armor.
Spells: Beginning at 4th level, an iron mage gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. An iron mage must choose and prepare his spells in advance.
To learn, prepare or cast a spell, the iron mage must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an iron mage's spell is 10 + the spell level + the iron mage's Intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, an iron mage can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on (see Table: Paladin). In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score. When (see Table: Paladin) indicates that the iron mage gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Intelligence score for that spell level.
An iron mage may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the iron mage decides which spells to prepare.
Through 3rd level, an iron mage has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his iron mage level – 3.
Spellbooks: An iron mage must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook. A character with levels in both iron mage and wizard can use a single spellbook, and does not need to keep track of which class a recorded spell belongs to.
Upon gaining 4th level the iron mage obtains a spellbook containing one 1st level spell from his focus school, and an additional number of 1st level spells equal to his Intelligence bonus, which can be of any school. At each new iron mage level, he gains one new spell of any spell level that he can cast (based on his new iron mage level) for his spellbook. At any time, an iron mage can also add spells found in other spellbooks to his own.
Low Arcana: Upon reaching 6th level, the iron mage pursues techniques to more effectively utilize his spells in combat. He can follow one of two methods: spell fluency or weapon component. Once the method is chosen, it cannot be changed. The benefits of low arcana apply only when casting iron mage spells, even if the iron mage can cast the same spells from other classes.
An iron mage who pursues spell fluency practices certain spells until casting them is second nature. He chooses one known 1st-level spell. From that point on, he can prepare this spell without referring to a spellbook and does not provoke attacks of opportunity when casting it. When cast, this spell is treated as one level higher for all purposes. Finally, if he prepares it with metamagic other than Heighten Spell, the iron mage ignores one spell level of increase. He gains this benefit again at 9th level with a 2nd level or lower spell, at 12th level with a spell of 3rd level or less, and at 15th level with any spell of up to 4th level.
If he chooses the weapon component method, the iron mage carefully refines his martial techniques in tandem with spellcasting, working them into a single cohesive discipline. When wielding a melee weapon with which he is proficient, he gains the benefit of the Eschew Materials feat and can use the weapon in place of any non-costly focus component. Additionally, he can perform somatic components using the weapon as if it were a free hand. Finally, when wielding such a weapon he gains a +1 competence bonus to all caster level checks. This bonus increases to +2 at 9th level, +3 at 12th level, and +4 at 15th level.
Greater Warding (Su): A 13th level iron mage gains an additional benefit from his warding, as dictated by his school of focus.
Greater Witching (Su): At 19th level, the iron mage can perform a greater witching attack as a standard action. He makes a single attack which is imbued with Arcane Strike and his witching effect, plus an additional effect depending on his school of focus.
High arcana: At 20th level the iron mage's warding and witching become innate. His warding no longer has limited rounds of usage and is always active, except when suppressed by anti-magic. He gains the benefit of Arcane Strike, including his witching effect, on every weapon attack without needing to spend a swift action to activate it.
Schools
Abjuration
Your specialize in hindering the enemy's offense, both magical and physical.
Witching: For one round, the target suffers a -1 (per rank) penalty to attack rolls, to CMB, and to the DC of any saving throws generated by its spells or abilities. Additionally, your weapon overcomes any damage reduction based on alignment.
Greater Witching: A creature damaged by your attack finds itself pacified for one round. When so affected, it treats all other creatures as if they were protected by the sanctuary spell. The Will saving throw DC to overcome this protection is equal to 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier.
Warding: You gain a +1 (per rank) deflection bonus to AC.
Greater Warding: While your warding is active, you gain spell resistance equal to your iron mage level + 12.
School powers:
- Dampening Field (Su): At 3rd level, as a standard action, you can create a 10-foot-radius field of protective magic centered on you that lasts for five rounds. Choose acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic; all creatures in the area gain resist energy 5 against that energy type. For every 4 iron mage levels you possess, the resisted amount increases by 5. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
- Unfettered (Su): Beginning at 7th level, as a swift action, you can touch a creature to bestow the benefits of the freedom of movement spell for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Greater Dispel Magic (Sp): You can use greater dispel magic as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, and twice per day at 18th level. This is considered an abjuration spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and the iron mage suffers a chance of failure if he attempts to use this ability in heavy armor.
Evocation
Yours is the magic of raw energy and destruction, but also of controlled force.
Witching: You deal +1d4 force damage per rank. Additionally, your weapon is considered to have the ghost touch enhancement.
Greater Witching: A wave of force follows your weapon, brutally impacting against any creature struck. This attack doubles your normal witching bonus (including the bonus damage from Arcane Strike), and grants you a free bull rush against the target with a circumstance bonus equal to your witching rank. If your bull rush is successful the subject flies away from you and falls prone. The target moves the full distance indicated by your bull rush result unless an obstacle prevents it, in which case it falls in the nearest square adjacent to that obstacle, and both your target and the obstacle take 1d6 points of damage. Unlike a normal bull rush, you cannot follow your target.
Warding: A floating disk of force grants you a shield bonus to AC with a base value of 2, +1 per rank. This force shield also blocks all damage from magic missiles.
Greater Warding: Whenever you take damage from a physical attack while your warding is active, the impact triggers a burst of force which streaks back to the attacker, dealing 1d4 damage per warding rank.
School powers:
- Force Missile (Su): At 3rd level, as a standard action, you can release a force missile that automatically strikes a foe, as magic missile. The force missile deals 1d4 damage + 1 for every 2 iron mage levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
- Spell channeling (Su): Beginning at 7th level, as a move action, you can imbue your weapon with any evocation spell you have prepared. The spell is expended as if cast. The next successful attack made with that weapon delivers the spell's effects to the creature struck, allowing no saving throw or spell resistance. Regardless of the spell's normal targets or area of effect, only the creature struck is affected. If a successful attack is not made with that weapon within a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level, the imbued spell is lost. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Forceful Hand (Sp): You can use forceful hand as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, and twice per day at 18th level. This is considered an evocation spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and the iron mage suffers a chance of failure if he attempts to use this ability in heavy armor.
Necromancy
You weave dire curses to confound your foes, and fortify your own body with negative energy.
Witching: The target suffers a -1 (per rank) penalty to AC, CMD and saving throws for 1 round. Additionally, your weapon overcomes any damage reduction based on the type of damage dealt.
Greater Witching: A creature damaged by your attack suffers a severe curse of unluck for one round. Whenever the subject makes a d20 roll or rolls to overcome a miss chance, it must roll twice and take the worse result.
Warding: You gain DR 1/- (per rank).
Greater Warding: During any round in which your warding is active, you can choose to radiate an aura of necromantic energy as a free action which causes all creatures within 30 feet to become shaken for one round unless they succeed on a Will saving throw with a DC equal to 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier. You can exclude a number of creatures equal to your warding rank from this effect, and you are immune to your own fear aura.
School powers:
- Grave Touch (Su): At 3rd level, you can make a melee touch attack as a standard action that causes a living creature to become shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level. If you touch a shaken creature with this ability, it becomes frightened for 1 round if it has fewer Hit Dice than your iron mage level. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
- False Flesh (Su): Beginning at 7th level, as an immediate action, you can gain temporary hit points equal to your iron mage level. These hit points vanish after a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Eyebite (Sp): You can use eyebite as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, and twice per day at 18th level. You can activate Arcane Strike in the same round as you spend a swift action to target a foe with eyebite. This is considered a necromancy spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level, and it gains a +2 bonus to its save DC from the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats. (The total save DC is therefore 18 + your Intelligence modifier.) Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and the iron mage suffers a chance of failure if he attempts to use this ability in heavy armor.
Transmutation
Your subtle art manipulates time and matter, providing tactical advantages.
Witching: All of the target's movement speeds are reduced by 5 feet (per rank) for one round, to a minimum of 0. Additionally, your weapon overcomes any damage reduction based on special materials.
Greater Witching: Your weapon momentarily passes through parallel planes as you attack, bypassing physical defenses. You ignore any armor, natural armor or shield bonuses to your target's AC, unless those bonuses arise from force effects. Critical hits threatened by this attack are automatically confirmed. On a successful hit, you cause the target to become slowed for one round (as the slow spell).
Warding: You gain a +1 (per rank) enhancement bonus to natural armor.
Greater Warding: Your natural reach increases by 5 feet and you cannot be flanked.
School powers:
- Expedience (Su): At 3rd level, as a free action, you can increase all of your base movement speeds by 5 feet per 2 iron mage levels you possess. This adjustment is treated as an enhancement bonus, and lasts for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
- Distortion (Su): Beginning at 7th level, once per day as a move action, you can change the size of yourself or one creature within 30 feet of you for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your iron mage level. You may increase or decrease the target's size by up to two categories. An unwilling creature is entitled to a Fortitude saving throw, DC = 12 + 1/2 your iron mage level + your Intelligence modifier. If you choose to enlarge the target and insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it. You can use this ability once per day for every 4 iron mage levels you possess.
- Mage's Lucubration (Sp): You can use mage's lucubration as a spell-like ability once per day at 11th level, and twice per day at 18th level. This is considered a transmutation spell, meaning you use your full iron mage level as your caster level. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the spell's normal components are required, and the iron mage suffers a chance of failure if he attempts to use this ability in heavy armor.
Anburaid |
This is a very neat class, with a lot of cool stuff going on. Nice job Tejõn :)
the only criticism I can levy is that the caster level buff seems a little complicated. What about making a spell progression that starts at level 1, but only goes to spell level 4? The class features are fairly well stretched out, so the class could skip gaining a spell level or 2 as it goes up.
Tim4488 |
Not bad, I really dislike Prestidigitation at level one, not only does it not fit he yet can not cast 0th level spells
Other then that I like it
Why doesn't it fit? He has arcane strike and witching, so clearly the Iron Mage has studied at least some amount of magic since day 1. Prestidigitation just represents the minor bits of magic almost every student picks up as they learn.
seekerofshadowlight |
seekerofshadowlight wrote:Why doesn't it fit? He has arcane strike and witching, so clearly the Iron Mage has studied at least some amount of magic since day 1. Prestidigitation just represents the minor bits of magic almost every student picks up as they learn.Not bad, I really dislike Prestidigitation at level one, not only does it not fit he yet can not cast 0th level spells
Other then that I like it
It does not fit as it is giving him wizard 0th level spells in a work around way. It add nothing and makes it scream" Look at me I can do wizard stuff to!!"
He is a warrior not a wizard, his power is channeled into combat. When he learns spells later he can branch out but thats not how the class feels.
If the OP finds it fine ok, I would never allow it as unlike everything else it feels random and adds nothing while taking away from what he is
At will 0th level magic is the realm of a full caster, which he is not. Sorry don't get it, rules wise and flavor wise it does not fit
Edit: AT the OP I do like most of the changes, however you now have gaping holes at 16th and 18th level. I think you may want to rearrange to fix that
Studpuffin |
An iron mage who pursues spell fluency practices certain spells until casting them is second nature. He chooses one known 1st-level spell. From that point on, he can prepare this spell without referring to a spellbook and does not provoke attacks of opportunity when casting it. When cast, this spell is treated as one level higher for all purposes. Finally, if he prepares it with metamagic other than Heighten Spell, the iron mage ignores one spell level of increase. He gains this benefit again at 9th level with a 2nd level or lower spell, at 12th level with a spell of 3rd level or less, and at 15th level with any spell of up to 4th level.
I think this section needs a bit of rewording, as I am having a little trouble following it without that little munchkin in my head jumping to conclusions. Hehe.
What does one level higher for all purposes mean? Do you mean spell level, caster level?
Shouldn't there be a minimum of one increase when using a metamagic feat like Extend spell, or is that the intent?
Kolokotroni |
Tim4488 wrote:seekerofshadowlight wrote:Why doesn't it fit? He has arcane strike and witching, so clearly the Iron Mage has studied at least some amount of magic since day 1. Prestidigitation just represents the minor bits of magic almost every student picks up as they learn.Not bad, I really dislike Prestidigitation at level one, not only does it not fit he yet can not cast 0th level spells
Other then that I like it
It does not fit as it is giving him wizard 0th level spells in a work around way. It add nothing and makes it scream" Look at me I can do wizard stuff to!!"
He is a warrior not a wizard, his power is channeled into combat. When he learns spells later he can branch out but thats not how the class feels.
If the OP finds it fine ok, I would never allow it as unlike everything else it feels random and adds nothing while taking away from what he is
At will 0th level magic is the realm of a full caster, which he is not. Sorry don't get it, rules wise and flavor wise it does not fit
Edit: AT the OP I do like most of the changes, however you now have gaping holes at 16th and 18th level. I think you may want to rearrange to fix that
Really? prestidigitation says look at me i can do wizard stuff? Its just parlor tricks that could add a bit of fun, and at most help the iron mage clean his armor.
seekerofshadowlight |
Really? prestidigitation says look at me i can do wizard stuff? Its just parlor tricks that could add a bit of fun, and at most help the iron mage clean his armor.
Yep really. It does not fit at all. He should not gain 0th level spells he is a half caster. He has funneled his magical talent into combat
He is close to a paladin or ranger, neither gain 0th level casting. I know it's one spell but it seems an odd tack on. prestidigitation is pretty much the universal 0th level wizard spell. Which makes great sense if ya have cantrips not so much for someone who's magical ability is funneled toward war
If ya just must give him a 0th level ability then give him something that fits the theme. Let him charge his weapon with 1d3 acid, fire frost or electricity at will or something. prestidigitation is really an odd duck to tape on there
underling |
Kolokotroni wrote:
Really? prestidigitation says look at me i can do wizard stuff? Its just parlor tricks that could add a bit of fun, and at most help the iron mage clean his armor.
Yep really. It does not fit at all. He should not gain 0th level spells he is a half caster. He has funneled his magical talent into combat
He is close to a paladin or ranger, neither gain 0th level casting. I know it's one spell but it seems an odd tack on. prestidigitation is pretty much the universal 0th level wizard spell. Which makes great sense if ya have cantrips not so much for someone who's magical ability is funneled toward war
If ya just must give him a 0th level ability then give him something that fits the theme. Let him charge his weapon with 1d3 acid, fire frost or electricity at will or something. prestidigitation is really an odd duck to tape on there
I don't mind prestidigitation, but wouldn't detect magic fit better? Its almost as flavorful and may actually be more useful. With detect magic, an iron mage could use spellcraft to read auras, find magic items or magical traps, and other utilitarian tasks. Eventually, he can use spells of his own.
Mind you, I still think prestige classes make most of this redundant for an official Paizo release, but as fan generated content, I think its outstanding. I could see a lot of people using this in their home games.
seekerofshadowlight |
I don't mind prestidigitation, but wouldn't detect magic fit better? Its almost as flavorful and may actually be more useful. With detect magic, an iron mage could use spellcraft to read auras, find magic items or magical traps, and other utilitarian tasks. Eventually, he can use spells of his own.
Mind you, I still think prestige classes make most of this redundant for an official Paizo release, but as fan generated content, I think its outstanding. I could see a lot of people using this in their home games.
I am gonna agree detect magic is a way better fit. I don't think it needs any free cantrips but eh, better fit then what it has now
Kolokotroni |
Kolokotroni wrote:
Really? prestidigitation says look at me i can do wizard stuff? Its just parlor tricks that could add a bit of fun, and at most help the iron mage clean his armor.
Yep really. It does not fit at all. He should not gain 0th level spells he is a half caster. He has funneled his magical talent into combat
He is close to a paladin or ranger, neither gain 0th level casting. I know it's one spell but it seems an odd tack on. prestidigitation is pretty much the universal 0th level wizard spell. Which makes great sense if ya have cantrips not so much for someone who's magical ability is funneled toward war
If ya just must give him a 0th level ability then give him something that fits the theme. Let him charge his weapon with 1d3 acid, fire frost or electricity at will or something. prestidigitation is really an odd duck to tape on there
however the paladin does have healing abilities, and the ability to remove things like fatigue and disease, is that being all 'hey im totally a cleric"?
seekerofshadowlight |
however the paladin does have healing abilities, and the ability to remove things like fatigue and disease, is that being all 'hey im totally a cleric"?
Ineed he does, however 1. he has no at will oth level spell and 2. the rest of the paladins ablitys revolve around healing and such, where this is just random with no tie in to what he does at all
So it's no where near like anything a paladin has, nor does it fit the theme of an arcane warrior, not with the current build
seekerofshadowlight |
What I was saying is you have a paladin who is built around healing and smiting
The you have this guy who is all about warding himself with magic, and infusing his weapon with magic and at higher levels he can cast combat spells. Then ya know he can clean dirt off his shirt with magic, shine his shoes make flowers seem pretty and that kinda stuff
It just does not fit,If ya just must give him a 0th level spell this one does not fit.
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Try reading the first sentence of the prestidigitation spell. That is the be-all and end-all of why he has this ability, and in my opinion it is the only cantrip that fits. In fact, in 2nd Edition, that spell was called cantrip! It's not thematic because it has anything to do with the focus of his powers or role; it's thematic because he's learning to cast wizard spells and prestidigitation is how you do that. He gets read magic at 4th for similar reasons.
If you don't like it, nothing is wrong with just leaving it off when you use the class! You're not losing anything important from a crunch perspective. (BTW, since he explicitly has the Sor/Wiz list and not a chopped-down subset, he can learn other 0-level spells and memorize them in 1st-level slots if he do desires.)
As an aside, I'm actually glad to see that the heated debate is over a first-level throwaway power. Means nothing else in the class is sticking out as particularly bad. :)
To clarify: Spell Fluency is talking about spell level; and that's just one free metamagic level, no "minimum 1." If you take fluency with fireball, for instance, you can empower it with a 4th-level slot. Extended shield would stay level 1. (And yes, you could even have access to good ol'quickened true strike.) However, it's 1 free metamagic level per memorized spell, not per metamagic application... still silent magic missile is level 2.
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Oh, as for the holes at 16 and 18... yeah, they bug me too. :P But I feel like the power level is about right as it is; can't think of much else to put in there. At least they're pretty solid levels already: 16th is your fourth iterative attack, and 18th bumps all three saves. I moved the second use of your 11th-level school spell to 18th, and the 7th-level power gets an extra use at 16th too. Better than risking power creep, IMO.
Kolokotroni |
Oh, as for the holes at 16 and 18... yeah, they bug me too. :P But I feel like the power level is about right as it is; can't think of much else to put in there. At least they're pretty solid levels already: 16th is your fourth iterative attack, and 18th bumps all three saves. I moved the second use of your 11th-level school spell to 18th, and the 7th-level power gets an extra use at 16th too. Better than risking power creep, IMO.
I guess that is good enough, I like the changes to the class. I'll give it a good look over tommorrow and let you know what i think, it will be hitting my table pretty soon, one of my players seems to like the class.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
I actually thinks he should get more 0 level spells. He's a warrior that dabbles in magic, so he should be able to dabble a bit more and get some more 0 level spells. I think it would make the class a lot more fun to play and it wouldn't really increase its power level. Maybe a number of 0 level spells equal to his Int bonus, plus Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, and Read Magic.
seekerofshadowlight |
I disagree, as a half caster he should get none at all. That is the realm of full casters. He may need something else at level 1 but 0th level spells are not it, as well he is not a caster yet. If you want spells from the get go half caster is not the way to go. but more like a 2/3rd caster like a bard
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
I disagree, as a half caster he should get none at all. That is the realm of full casters.
For what it's worth, I generally agree. Lots of people wanted them, though, and I figured there's really no harm in this one, plus it does make sense as the "learning spell" as described above.
seekerofshadowlight |
Read or detect magic would fit better if you just have to give them one, as they are the first 2 spells learned
Also something else that I just thought of, Half casters have never been arcane Humm maybe you should add some oth level spells at 2nd 3rd or 4th level as they will need detect and read magic, They should not have many maybe casting no more then 3 or 4 max and not at will but being an arcane caster they will need such spells
another though is to gain em cantrips at like 2and or 3rd level but just some spells, read magic, then detect magic, then something else or the like
I dislike half casters gaining cantrips or oth level spells but they will have to know at lest them 2. No way around it
Kolokotroni |
I was looking over the school abilities. One thing that jumped out at me is the evocation greater warding. I think this is too strong as it has a massive damage potential. At the level you get it 4d4 doesnt seem like alot but I think the fact that it triggers every time you are hit with either a ranged or melee attack and its automatic is a bit much. I think either limiting the range it can track back, or possibly limiting it to once per round. Otherwise it adds a little too much to the iron mage's damage potential in my opinion.
Edit: It all depends on the number of attacks, which its why its damage potential. But at level 20 7d4 per hit is 17.5 damage per time he is hit. Granted it also means he's being hit alot, but I still think its a bit much, especially against an enemy who puts out alot of smaller attacks like a two weapon fighter or a monster with lots of natural attacks.
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Read or detect magic would fit better if you just have to give them one, as they are the first 2 spells learned
Prestidigitation is the first "spell" learned; it consists of pretty much everything that was called a cantrip before 3.0. Read magic is of such value to a spellbook-user that they always learn it, too. These are the only two spells common to every wizard, and the iron mage gets them based on that.
A wizard with Divination as an opposed school doesn't even know detect magic. I don't see what use an iron mage has for the spell, and unlike prestidigitation it's not something he'd just automatically have from attending the finger-wiggling academy part-time.
But at level 20 7d4 per hit is 17.5 damage per time he is hit.
And at level 15, fire shield averages 18.5. I actually checked that before leaving it at 1d4 per rank. :) It's true that the warding is useful in more situations, so it deserves attention if anyone's playtesting it, but I'm pretty sure it's not broken.
To be honest, I'm more concerned with evokers being able to dual-wield and receive a full shield bonus. On the one hand, the flavor is exactly right and it's not better damage than a ranger, paladin or cavalier doing the same thing. (More per hit than ranger, but no massive attack bonus. Paladin even gets close to the same AC.) On the other hand... yeah, it's top of my "keep an eye out" list. Necromancer's debuff stacking is #2.
Edit: Actually, I guess everyone else would just dual-wield with a shield, heh.
Tim4488 |
The only big thing I'm still debating is the fact that, as I read it, Greater Warding is always active once they hit 20th level. Sure, it's 20th, but you're looking at SR 32, 7d4 damage whenever anyone hits you, an always-on fear aura, or being unflankable and with increased reach. All the time.
I'd be inclined to make the Evocation Greater Warding damage only apply once a round, and maybe limit all the Greater Wardings even once the Iron Mage hits 20th. I suppose the SR 32 isn't that bad, as any 20th level blaster worth their salt will have all kinds of caster level bonuses against spell resistance by then. Still, though... always unflankable, all the time, not even a "Rogue 4 levels higher" caveat?
So if there's a gripe other than the squabbling over cantrips, I'd say Greater Wardings always on at 20th might be a bit much.
Could be wrong though. Haven't playtested it, obviously. YMMV.
Fake Healer |
Perhaps they learn one cantrip per level at 1st, 2nd and 3rd level and can use them IntMod times per day or give them 0-level slots = to Int mod for preparing them. They also start play with one cantrip from their school of focus at 1st level.
So for example the list of available cantrips would be:
Read magic, detect magic, prestidigitation and arcane mark. Then, depending on the school they chose they have Resistance(abj), Ray of Frost(evo), Disrupt undead(nec), or Mending(trans).
This gives them a total of 4 cantrips that can only be used a few times a day (probably around 3-4 times on average).
I don't see any power issues with that and most of the school cantrips are for flavor as they are totally useless after a couple levels but they really set the flavor for the class.
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
always unflankable, all the time, not even a "Rogue 4 levels higher" caveat?
But not "never flat-footed," and it's not actually always... the ability is (Su). A rogue's sneak attack is (Ex). There are options. :) I don't think it's broken before 20th, and at 20th there's no such thing as a rogue 4 levels higher than the barbarian, either...
As I commented in the previous thread, my hands-on experience with SR is fairly limited. It's possible that should drop back to 10+ rather than 12+, especially since I added the save DC debuff to abjuration's witching.
The fear aura is notably weaker than average, I don't think it's overpowered. And see above re: evocation's greater warding... fire shield is a stronger effect (at lower level), so I'd want to see it in play before nerfing it to 1 point per rank (which would be the next step down as far as I'm concerned... d3's suck).
Kolokotroni |
I think the 12+ is ok for sr after all thats what the Spell resistance spell gives. And with fire shield in mind i think the evocations greater warding is ok too in principle, but I still think maybe it's range should be limited. 5 feet per caster level maybe? If a deepwood sniper hits the iron mage from a half mile away i dont think the power should be able to hit back. Just a thought.
Tim4488 |
Ahhh. Didn't think about the (Su). Good point.
(Just because PF doesn't officially have epic yet doesn't mean no one's going to do it, though.)
I'm okay with the 12+. Like I said, for a dedicated blaster, it won't be hard to pierce, but it will provide protection against those who didn't focus on things like Spell Penetration. Evocation and Transmutation gave me the most pause.
I don't want you to weaken the damage Evocation's Greater Warding does... and a range limit may or may not be a good idea, I'm not sure. Like I said above, I'd say it should only apply once a round. Still a powerful effect, but more balanced IMHO.
Kolokotroni |
Ahhh. Didn't think about the (Su). Good point.
(Just because PF doesn't officially have epic yet doesn't mean no one's going to do it, though.)
I'm okay with the 12+. Like I said, for a dedicated blaster, it won't be hard to pierce, but it will provide protection against those who didn't focus on things like Spell Penetration. Evocation and Transmutation gave me the most pause.
I don't want you to weaken the damage Evocation's Greater Warding does... and a range limit may or may not be a good idea, I'm not sure. Like I said above, I'd say it should only apply once a round. Still a powerful effect, but more balanced IMHO.
I think once per round might be a bit too restrictive, the other wardings are not limited in that way. But one thing i was thinking about, what if it counted as an attack of opportunity? Not to make it an attack, but that it would count towards your AoO total for the round, meaning if you have combat reflexes you would be able to use it more then once a round, but otherwise you wouldnt.
seekerofshadowlight |
Perhaps they learn one cantrip per level at 1st, 2nd and 3rd level and can use them IntMod times per day or give them 0-level slots = to Int mod for preparing them. They also start play with one cantrip from their school of focus at 1st level.
So for example the list of available cantrips would be:
Read magic, detect magic, prestidigitation and arcane mark. Then, depending on the school they chose they have Resistance(abj), Ray of Frost(evo), Disrupt undead(nec), or Mending(trans).
This gives them a total of 4 cantrips that can only be used a few times a day (probably around 3-4 times on average).
I don't see any power issues with that and most of the school cantrips are for flavor as they are totally useless after a couple levels but they really set the flavor for the class.
I like this much better then how it is written really
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
I actually don't want to put a range limit on evocation's greater warding. It strikes me as one of those really neat things that's functionally almost a non-issue (the deepwood sniper says, "oh, ow," drinks a potion, and finishes killing him from complete safety) but gives the class a genuinely unique effect. It hearkens back to the days when magic missile's range was "line of sight." :)
Here's the thing with the warding damage: I actually think he needs it, without restrictions, for two reasons. First, unlike the other specializations, he has nothing that actually prevents the enemy from attacking him, or reduces the damage when they do; his trick is to instead make hitting him a no-win proposition.
Second, his witching damage (5d4+5 at 20th, also a 17.5 average) isn't nearly as good as it looks because he has a grand total of zero to-hit bonuses and, unlike the other schools, his witching is less effective when he hits less frequently... the other three only need to get one shot in and they've got their effects for a round (and they can more effectively handle multiple enemies as a result). It's good enough that he should be a threat worth dealing with (and that's important or his warding would never come into play at all), but by itself, it's generally inferior to the damage output of any other full-BAB class (channeling can make up for this, but is a very limited resource).
So even if the GM plays it stupid and throws droves of enemies against that warding, I don't think he's going to steal the show. That's where I stand on theoretical balance for the moment. I'd very much like to hear playtest results, though. :)
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Some notes for a final draft -
The spell-likes should specify minimum Intelligence scores: 10 for prestidigitation and read magic, 16 for the 11th-level school power.
At some point during the design I gave all the 7th-level school powers a duration of 1/2 rounds per level. Then I decided this made False Flesh too strong, and cut its numerical effect in half. Wrong call, I think. False Flesh should go back double your level in temporary hit points, but they only last until the beginning of your next turn. There should be a rider on there clarifying that you can use it after you know you're taking damage, and have it apply to that damage. (Should you be allowed to wait until you know how much?)
Also: If I were to fancy this up as a PDF, including some original art, (1) would anyone be interested and (2) what would you consider a fair price?
Kolokotroni |
I hope you give me a little time before you call it done, i really do want to do some playtesting, it just got sidelined to playtest the APG classes. Done want to put them next to homebrew stuff because it throws off the comparison. Up to you, but I will give you feedback when i get back to my regular game and include it regardless.
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
I suppose I meant "final playtest draft." :) Basically there are still a couple of things I know I want to change, before the class even gets used. I'm also hoping to get a little attention from one or more of the hardcore rules-and-balance wonks hereabouts... I think I give a fair shake, but my time and interests are spread too thin lately to trust myself as a genuine expert.
Meanwhile: I get to play one myself starting this weekend, hooray! BTW, what school does your player want to try? I could go for any of them, so might as well make sure we don't double up.
Kolokotroni |
I suppose I meant "final playtest draft." :) Basically there are still a couple of things I know I want to change, before the class even gets used. I'm also hoping to get a little attention from one or more of the hardcore rules-and-balance wonks hereabouts... I think I give a fair shake, but my time and interests are spread too thin lately to trust myself as a genuine expert.
Meanwhile: I get to play one myself starting this weekend, hooray! BTW, what school does your player want to try? I could go for any of them, so might as well make sure we don't double up.
He hasnt decided yet, the game is a couple weeks away as i am running a playtest of carrion hill for a couple sessions. When he decides i'll let you know. And whatever isnt covered i will throw at the players as enemies, or allied npcs. I have to admit I really like this class, I think you did a great job and its well thought out. So if i can help refine it I will.
Tim4488 |
For a single class? No more than $5. I have a friend of a friend who does some decent artwork, but I don't know how busy she is right now. I can ask her next time I see her around though, if you want. I imagine it would just be a single drawing?
I've already decided as soon as I run PF, this class will definitely be legal, but that won't be until next August or September, sooooo. I can't help too much. Sorry.
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
Kolokotroni: I think I'm going to go with transmutation for my own first run, mainly because I'm playing an autistic dwarf (Cha 3! Booya!) and the speed effects will be very handy.
Sheboygen: Brief compliment is compliment.
Tim: I'm covered on the artist base, but thanks for the offer!
And wow, $5? That's a significantly larger number than I had in my head. :) I was browsing other products and saw that LPJ's undeFEATable line is 99 cents for 6 pages, probably roughly equivalent. I doubt I'll see high volume, so I'm questioning whether it's even worth the bookkeeping. I know adding some good art raises the value, though; and a balanced, playtested 20-level base class is a bit more work and (I think) a bit less common, which might let me bump it up a notch. I was crossing my fingers for $3 and not really expecting anything over $2, so that's a reassuring first answer!
Urizen |
I would keep it at a buck. To be in the position of a devil's advocate - if we're already seeing all of the mechanics here for free so far, what is really the point in paying? If you want to expand on it more w/o unveiling publicly, you ought to expand the schools to all of them that the Sor/Wiz has and each has their own talent features that's scalable in level advancements. Add a good layout and artwork, maybe you can squeeze another 50 cents or so.
Of course, you'll need to get a couple people interested in actually play testing it and/or make sure you're OGL compliant.
Hope that helps.
tejón RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
I would keep it at a buck. To be in the position of a devil's advocate - if we're already seeing all of the mechanics here for free so far, what is really the point in paying?
Well, it's gotta be OGL for the Pathfinder logo. Anyone could put it online anyway after release, including any future updates I might make; and it's not the kind of big project that I feel needs to be kept under wraps just to build excitement, prevent multiple versions, or what-have-you.
The added value of a PDF would be a nice clean layout, artwork (I'm thinking of one picture per school), and print-readiness. If enough people want all that and it looks like I'll turn over more than twenty bucks for the effort, I'm capable of providing such a product. But if I'm only going to sell a few dozen copies at under a dollar (and I assume Paizo gets a cut of that), I might as well let my artist and I both spend that time on other projects. Ergo the questions: who'd be interested, and at what price? All the answers ultimately change is how much effort I put into presentation. :)
Something actually about the class: Should the Weapon Component option allow using a weapon to deliver touch attacks? Or, should I call it out more clearly that it currently doesn't? Thematically it makes sense, but I'm worried about making it seem too good in comparison to Spell Fluency. The latter is currently the "keeps a hand free" build; two-handed weapons or a buckler. Weapon Component can use a heavy shield or dual-wield. Spell Fluency gets significantly stronger spells, but only a specific few, and really shines with extra feat investment... does it need the bonus of having a monopoly on convenient touch spells? Or would people still take it with equal frequency if Weapon Component got those too?
Kolokotroni |
Urizen wrote:I would keep it at a buck. To be in the position of a devil's advocate - if we're already seeing all of the mechanics here for free so far, what is really the point in paying?Well, it's gotta be OGL for the Pathfinder logo. Anyone could put it online anyway after release, including any future updates I might make; and it's not the kind of big project that I feel needs to be kept under wraps just to build excitement, prevent multiple versions, or what-have-you.
The added value of a PDF would be a nice clean layout, artwork (I'm thinking of one picture per school), and print-readiness. If enough people want all that and it looks like I'll turn over more than twenty bucks for the effort, I'm capable of providing such a product. But if I'm only going to sell a few dozen copies at under a dollar (and I assume Paizo gets a cut of that), I might as well let my artist and I both spend that time on other projects. Ergo the questions: who'd be interested, and at what price? All the answers ultimately change is how much effort I put into presentation. :)
Something actually about the class: Should the Weapon Component option allow using a weapon to deliver touch attacks? Or, should I call it out more clearly that it currently doesn't? Thematically it makes sense, but I'm worried about making it seem too good in comparison to Spell Fluency. The latter is currently the "keeps a hand free" build; two-handed weapons or a buckler. Weapon Component can use a heavy shield or dual-wield. Spell Fluency gets significantly stronger spells, but only a specific few, and really shines with extra feat investment... does it need the bonus of having a monopoly on convenient touch spells? Or would people still take it with equal frequency if Weapon Component got those too?
I would probably be interested in the pdf, i am note beyond rewarding someone for hard work.
In terms of Spell fluency vs weapon component. As it stands I think most people (in my mind) are gonna take weapon component, giving it touch spells without an AoO will make spell fluency even less attractive, since touch spells are likely what are going to be chosen (most likely to get AoOs from touch spells and all). I would say leave them as they are, especially since the ability to delvier touch spells with an attack becomes a serious balance issue in terms of damage and effects that you can do with the class. Getting full weapon damage, vampiric touch, and my witching bonus all in one hit? Its a bit much, and would need to be a consideration in the power of the witchings. Now if you mean deliver touch attacks without actually doing weapon damage with the weapon, that is just kind of odd to me. I mean i guess it could work ok, but its just strange visually.