All in all, I liked Tome of Secrets, and the base class's it produced.
But I was left feeling a bit as if they where "unfinished" when compared to the official Pathfinder base classes.
As it was stated in another thread that there would be no official dialog/errata regarding the product, and that it was basically up to the DM's to interpret/adjust the classes as they saw fit....I figured I would stop waiting for more information to be posted and clean them up myself.
I'm not looking to re-write each class from scratch.....as I said, I like the basic intent and flavor they presented, so those who didn't like the classes at all probably will not be interested in what I am proposing here....but for those of you who like the basic framework they created, I thought it might be fun to bounce ideas off of each other, and see if we can polish them up some.
First up, since I started the thread so I get to call it :p
WARLOCK
These are my first random thoughts.....
Is there any reason to not just put Arcane bolt, burst, flurry, and eruption into the normal class progression ?
I mean, can anyone imagine using the class without taking these ?
One of the few things I like about 4E was the Warlock Pact idea, could a Pact mechanic similar to what they are doing with the Oracle Foci work here as a replacement to the school abilities ?
What I am thinking is a Pact that has a few (two or three) options at each level a school ability becomes accessible, thematically based on specific pacts. Could even include a specific “sign” like the binder pacts from 3.5.
Some of the existing School abilities need clarification.
Anyone care to bite ?
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I am currently working on converting the Warlock into Pathfinder for a friend of mine. I am designing it kind of like the 4e Warlock with pacts and all. It is coming out pretty interesting. Just note that I havent seen the ToS version yet so I am not sure how that one turned out. But if you are interested in seeing my finished version of the converted Warlock let me know at sgmendez@frc.edu.
I'd love to see it when it's done, as long as you don't mind me pirating ideas ;)
Like I said, I don't really want to start from the ground up, I think the foundation set by Tome of Sorcery is OK, I just want to work some of the rough edges down a bit, and fix possible problems.
Care to share how you are handling curses ?
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Here is a link to the file: Warlock Converted
I was a personal fan of the 3.5e Warlock in the Complete Arcane so that is what most of it is based upon. But I did take the pact idea from 4e as well as the armor abilities from the ToS version.
All of their invocations so far are just those located in Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, and Dragon Magic (including any Dragonfire Adept Invocations), or any other source that has invocations in it that I don't know about.
Well I did give them a curse ability kind of like what they have in 4e but I am not sure how it looks, since they didn't have curses like this in the 3.5e version.
Here is a link to the file: Warlock Converted
Thanks much ;)
I'll give some feedback once I have had the chance to look it over in detail.
Off the top of my head......
Not sure how balanced allowing a new invocation at every level is ?
It might be a bit much.
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I thought so as well, but that was one of the big complaints that people had for the warlock. The invocations are not that powerful when it really comes down to it, or at least when compared to spells of an equal level. And really I am just giving them a total of 8 more invocations, since they got 12 at 20th level before. But if it ends up being to powerful I will more likely drop it back down to the normal progression.
What do people think of using the Oracle foci/revelations as a framework for creating pacts ?
Each pact would have a theme (Infernal, Shadow, Fey, etc)
Each pact would have a selection of Invocations of each level for the warlock to choose from, with enough diversity that each warlock with the same pact could look a bit different.
Each pact would have some kind of "sign" that you are bound to that pact.....possibly giving you a small bonus to interaction with some kinds of creatures, and a minus to others.
What ya think ?
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It would be an interesting idea. I was just planing on keeping all of the invocations from 3.5e. With Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, and Dragon Magic, there is enough diversity that no two warlocks will more likely look the same.
I have no problem with you taking the ideas that I have made and make your own version of the warlock with them as a guide. But personally I think that the 3.5e warlock is a great base and that is what I used. Just added some changes to eliminate the alignment restrictions, and add a little more Pathfinder feel to it by giving it a little boost in power.
But the reason I put it up on here is so that I can get feedback from people to make it more balanced and fun to play. I currently have a player who is going to play the warlock in my Pathfinder game, so I will see how it turns out with that. (He was the main reason I tried to convert it, since it is his favorite 3.5e class)
I do plan on creating some sort of restriction or code that the warlock of certain packs must follow, or something like the "curses" of the oracle. I am not really sure what to do though.
I do plan on creating some sort of restriction or code that the warlock of certain packs must follow, or something like the "curses" of the oracle. I am not really sure what to do though.
This is what I'm thinking at this point....
I know I want Warlock pacts, as it fit's mechanically with how many of the other classes are being done, Bloodline, Foci, Domains,...etc....etc.....
I think I want each Pact to include several options of each level of ability, so that every Fey Pact Warlock (for example) is not automatically the same.
I would like to incorporate some of the idea of binding vestiges into the pact's, so that the Pact has both an influence, and possibly a sign, associated with the pact....I'm almost thinking of having the same bind DC mechanic, starting them out kind of high, so that low level Warlocks are often showing their sign, and under the influence, but learn to suppress the sign and influence as they gain mastery over their pact.
I know it has nothing to do with the topic, but i like your avatar, Santiago.
Anybody knows from which Paizo book it's coming from, to see the full image ?
I know it has nothing to do with the topic, but i like your avatar, Santiago.
Anybody knows from which Paizo book it's coming from, to see the full image ?
+1
Actually I was wondering that myself ;)
Actually I was wondering that myself ;)
Back off, Nighttree ! I saw her first !
;)The picture tag says it's a Red Mantis leader...
I've started working on a sample Fiendish pact, which I'll post as soon as I have it fleshed out a bit more.
Now that I have wrapped up the Spellblade to my satisfaction, I'm focusing on the Warlock class.
This is what I am currently playing with.....
I placed the different arcane bolt abilities as permanant class features at the oppropriate levels (I just can't see someone NOT taking them) and re named it Eldritch blast.
I have rolled all sorts of ideas for a Warlock Pact over in my head, overthought it all to h...e...double toothpick, and decided to (at least for the moment) draw from existing material as much as possible.
SO......
The Warlock chooses a Pact at creation....these are the same as a Sorcerer bloodline for the most part.
The pact grants Pact abilities (drawn from the sorcerer bloodlines, and at the same levels), Pact feats, and the ability to use Invocations (which fall at the same levels a Sorcerer would recieve bonus spells from his bloodline). The invocations are just spells of the appropriate level, chosen from the Sorcerer spell list, and cast as (Sp) at will.
I would still like to use the idea of each pact having an influence and sign on a failed control check.
This is still pretty rough, and if memory serves most of the first level bloodline abilities are some kind of blast....so I may need to generate some additional abilities, but it seems like the most logical base to start from.
This creates an ability fall as follows.......
1st level: Arcane Armor mastery, Cantrips, Eldritch Blast 1D6, Warlock Pact power.
2nd level: Eldritch Blast 2D6
3rd level: Pact power, DR 2/*, Invocation (1st level).
4th level: Arcane Burst, Eldritch Blast 3D6
5th level: Arcane armor mastery (Med), Invocation (2nd level).
6th level: Eldritch Blast 4D6
7th level: DR 3/*, Invocation (3rd level), Pact feat.
8th level: Eldritch Blast 5D6
9th level: Pact power, Arcane armor mastery (heavy), Invocation (4th level).
10th level: Eldritch Blast 6D6
11th level: DR 4/*, Invocation (5th level).
12th level: Arcane Flurry, Eldritch Blast 7D6
13th level: Invocation (6th level), Pact feat.
14th level: Eldritch Blast 8D6
15th level: Pact power, DR 5/*, Invocation (7th level).
16th level: Arcane eruption, Eldritch Blast 9D6
17th level: Invocation (8th level).
18th level: Eldritch Blast 10D6
19th level: DR 6/*, Invocation (9th level), Pact feat.
20th level: Pact power, Eldritch Blast 11D6
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not sure if this thread is still "alive", but I just wanted to give some input on Santiago Mendez's warlock conversion- Most of it looks pretty good and balanced, but I have a major issue with the Wild Pact's pact magic. Namely, I let my player use it, and he ended up with 8 uses per day (really high charisma) and used it in conjunction with Maximize Spell-like Ability to maximize his eldritch blast, dealing triple damage (wild pact on a roll of 4) and completely taking out something with CR 3 higher than the groups average level- all in the first action of the first round of combat. Wasn't the first time either, as this is pretty much the third tough-as-nails creature that he single-handedly destroyed within 2 sessions. Even though the ability may result in half damage or normal damage, you are essentially giving them a 50% chance to do crit damage or better, with no drawbacks other than uses-per-day, which isn't a big drawback due to how many they will tend to have.
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@nighttree
So it is an interesting take on the warlock, but in my opinion why would you ever play a sorcerer again with this. You now can cast sorcerer spells at will (even if only a few) and gain DR, Arcane Armor, and Eldritch Blast in addition to everything the sorcerer gets (besides the ability to cast a lot of spells).
@Hunterofthedusk
Yeah I see where you are coming from. I have updated and changed it a little and here is the updated Warlock. I have changed the way Wild Pact Magic works and some of the restricted alignments, as well as adding in the pact form abilities.
@Seldriss
I am not sure what the picture is from but it does look pretty bad @$$.
@nighttree
So it is an interesting take on the warlock, but in my opinion why would you ever play a sorcerer again with this. You now can cast sorcerer spells at will (even if only a few) and gain DR, Arcane Armor, and Eldritch Blast in addition to everything the sorcerer gets (besides the ability to cast a lot of spells).
I'm not sure which part specifically you are speaking to ?
The spells are simply the invocations, drawn from the sorcerer list to mitigate the need to re-write up a bunch of invocations.
My version get's nine invocations, your version get's twenty.
Both versions..... other than that, get about the same things.
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Yes your's does get 9 and mine get 20 but your 9 will be much much stronger than my 20. The invocations of 3.5e are much much weaker than a standard spell since they can be used at will. Now with your system at 7th level you can cast fireball at will and 19th level you can cast meteor swarm. Compared to mine where the only real offense is the eldritch blast.
What I would add to the classes to get some more Polish out of them:
Yes your's does get 9 and mine get 20 but your 9 will be much much stronger than my 20. The invocations of 3.5e are much much weaker than a standard spell since they can be used at will. Now with your system at 7th level you can cast fireball at will and 19th level you can cast meteor swarm. Compared to mine where the only real offense is the eldritch blast.
Oy.....see, and I just don't think that way :)
Why would I take Fireball when I have an Eldritch blast ?Back to the drawing board I guess......sigh
maybe I need to move them back to where I had them originally, which would mean a 1st level invocation at third...etc....etc....
That way the spell is falling several levels after another caster would have access to it.
Call me lazy....I don't want to have to write up a bunch of invocations, when I have perfectly good spell lists to work from ;)
What I would add to the classes to get some more Polish out of them:
** spoiler omitted **
pierogis ???
I don't even know what that is :(
What I would add to the classes to get some more Polish out of them:
** spoiler omitted **
pierogis ???
I don't even know what that is :(
Have someone Polish make them for you as soon as possible.
Your mouth will attempt to kill itself for not having eaten them sooner.
EDIT: Or there are frozen ones you could get at the store... Those aren't the best but you should get them anyway if you wan some.
Have someone Polish make them for you as soon as possible.
Your mouth will attempt to kill itself for not having eaten them sooner.
LOL...at my age, I have enough body parts attempting mutiny without inviting a complete revolt ;)
OK, I had to look....and I must admit, they look YUMMY.
OK, I had to look....and I must admit, they look YUMMY.
Yes. Polish food is amazing.
The pierogies with potatoes and onions in them are my favorites, but I've had them with bacon as well.
They are impossibly tasty.
You could always make the invocations the wizard school abilities or the sorcerer bloodline abilities.
That's kind of where I was drawing pact abilities from....the Pact abilities would be very much like a Sorcerers bloodline abilities, or an Oracle's revalations.
Invocations are ment to be the area that they can really do something different (depending on what spells they choose), I was trying to avoid having every Warlock have the same abilities.