I've noticed a veritable landslide of “Gish” threads over the last week or so, and was curious why the Spellblade from Tome of Secrets is not apparently even of interest to anyone ?
What specifically about the class is so far “off base” that it's not even up for consideration ?
My assumption is that all this Gishmania is destined to convince the Paizo staff to create an official Pathfinder gishy class, which therefore will be possible to play in Pathfinder Society.
That rules the Spellblade out, only the Paizo material can be official.
I think the spell blade is a pretty good attempt, and with some work could be a descent class but as it stands, it has problems. First Compared to the bard it has several 'dead' leavels where it doesnt gain a new spell level and doesnt have an ability. These are 2, 11, 14, and 19. I leave out 5 and 17 because odly enough their is an ability gained in the preceeding level where they prolly should have an empty spot for class abilities (where a new spell level is gained.
Second and most importantly. The principle class ability Infusion/special ability is heavily penalized if the character has standard equipement for a combat character, a magic weapon. At 6th level for instance, you can add up to a +3 worth of enchancements to your weapon, however this cannot bring the bonus over +3 meaning if you have a +1 weapon (very reasonable at level 6) you do not gain the full class ability. At level 9 you can add +2 and 3 special abilities but cannot bring the weapon over +4. In my experience a level 9 martial character will have at least a +2 weapon. This means that more then half of the main bonus of the class is not usable. Sure its nice to be able to pick up any stick off the ground and make it awesome, but primary abilities should work with expected gear.
Personally what I would do to the class is give it a bonus combat feat at 2,11,14, and 19, and replace the standard infusion with a different kind of bonus (perhaps weapon training), and leave the special ability class feature with the existing cap of 1/2 level. But as it stands it is a pretty poor class compared to any of the core, and is just not a serviceable choice.
Second and most importantly. The principle class ability Infusion/special ability is heavily penalized if the character has standard equipement for a combat character, a magic weapon. At 6th level for instance, you can add up to a +3 worth of enchancements to your weapon, however this cannot bring the bonus over +3 meaning if you have a +1 weapon (very reasonable at level 6) you do not gain the full class ability. At level 9 you can add +2 and 3 special abilities but cannot bring the weapon over +4. In my experience a level 9 martial character will have at least a +2 weapon. This means that more then half of the main bonus of the class is not usable. Sure its nice to be able to pick up any stick off the ground and make it awesome, but primary abilities should work with expected gear.
Personally what I would do to the class is give it a bonus combat feat at 2,11,14, and 19, and replace the standard infusion with a different kind of bonus (perhaps weapon training), and leave the special ability class feature with the existing cap of 1/2 level. But as it stands it is a pretty poor class compared to any of the core, and is just not a serviceable choice.
Thanks for that Kolokotroni, I'm actually looking at polishing up these classes for use, and I appreciate the assesment.
So what would be an acceptable fix for the Infusion/Special ability cap? I can understand why the had the cap, but I think your right in that it is a little too limiting for their primary ability.
How about adding your Int mod to the mix....so half you class levels + Int mod, would be the max enchantment bonus ?
So what would be an acceptable fix for the Infusion/Special ability cap? I can understand why the had the cap, but I think your right in that it is a little too limiting for their primary ability.
How about adding your Int mod to the mix....so half you class levels + Int mod, would be the max enchantment bonus ?
I dont think thats a good idea then you can make a weapon more magic then a weapon can be at high levels. I think the infusion part should be turned into weapon training, leaving the special abilities part. Then you dont have the same cap problems, but still get a bonus from your class features.
I dont think thats a good idea then you can make a weapon more magic then a weapon can be at high levels. I think the infusion part should be turned into weapon training, leaving the special abilities part. Then you dont have the same cap problems, but still get a bonus from your class features.
Duh....Weapon training as in the fighter ability, for some reason I was not making the conncection.
That would work well.
So other than replacing the Imbue ability with Weapons training, and adding Bonus feats to some of the dead levels, are there any other suggestions or problems with the class that need to be addressed ?
So other than replacing the Imbue ability with Weapons training, and adding Bonus feats to some of the dead levels, are there any other suggestions or problems with the class that need to be addressed ?
I think at that point you have a pretty decent class, that fits the role nicely. Its simple but it will work. Its not quite in the style of pathfinders customization of classes (mercies, rage powers, school/domain powers etc), but it will fit well enough. I dont think you could do any better without rewriting the class which kind of defeats the purpose.
I think at that point you have a pretty decent class, that fits the role nicely. Its simple but it will work. Its not quite in the style of pathfinders customization of classes (mercies, rage powers, school/domain powers etc), but it will fit well enough. I dont think you could do any better without rewriting the class which kind of defeats the purpose.
I'm inclined to agree.
I have been trying to come up with something that gives it that extra PUNCH....but so far everything that I have come up with needlessly complicates the class.
I will probably allow a greater range of item abilities then they have listed in Tome of secrets, but beyond that.....the only idea that has occurred to me are the “war spells” I have in a Dragon magazine around here somewhere.
You had to take a feat to gain access to the spell list, and it traded longer, and more complex casting, for more powerful spells at lower level........have to give that idea more thought.
OK, here is an idea to possibly expand upon.......
As you said the class, in it's simplified state lacks the range of option seen in many other Pathfinder classes......SO.......
How many options that fit the basic “Gish” premise could be generated to create additional ability sets.
Example: Hexblade, Elven blade singer, etc.....
Maybe there is a way to use Spellblade as the base class, and allow a customizable option so that it can fill these other niches ???
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OK, here is an idea to possibly expand upon.......
As you said the class, in it's simplified state lacks the range of option seen in many other Pathfinder classes......SO.......
How many options that fit the basic “Gish” premise could be generated to create additional ability sets.
Example: Hexblade, Elven blade singer, etc.....
Maybe there is a way to use Spellblade as the base class, and allow a customizable option so that it can fill these other niches ???
I think with access to the entire sorcerer/wizard spell list, you can 'niche' all you want with it. I know my arcane legionary I went with the set spell list and the 'Insightful Discovery' feature to allow some 'tweaking'.
I'm just thinking it would be nice if the class covered several different versions of Melee+caster, minimizing the need for converting things like the Hexblade.
Here are the changes I have applied to the Spellblade.
I think they are reasonably balanced (?)....but would love opinions and suggestions.
Existing first level Infusion ability is replaced with......
Arcane Strike (Sp): You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapon with magical energy. As a swift action, you can imbue your weapon with a fraction of your power. The spellblade can grant any single melee weapon a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls, and for purposes of overcoming magic resistance.
The effects last for a number of rounds equal to 3 + Intelligence modifier rounds.
For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
While a spellblade often chooses a single weapon to use this ability, he may switch weapons throughout the duration of the ability (although he cannot infuse more than one weapon in a single round). Should a spellblade let go of a weapon (e.g. throwing or dropping it) then it loses its infusion prior to the spellblade’s next turn.
This ability is just a slightly improved version of the feat Arcane strike. This pretty much functions the same as Weapons training (a little more limited than the fighter ability as it has a duration, and requires a swift action spent).
Bonus feat, at 2nd, 11th, 14th, and 19th, level.
At 7th level, they gain .....
Arcane infusion (Sp): When you activate this ability, ( a swift action) you can channel greater arcane energy into a melee weapon, your unarmed strike, or natural weapons. You must sacrifice one of your spells for the day (of 1st level or higher) but you gain a bonus on all attack rolls for one round equal to the level of the spell sacrificed, as well as extra damage equal to 1D4 x the level of the spell sacrificed. The bonus you add to your attack rolls cannot be greater than your base attack bonus.
This is the 3.5 version of the Arcane strike feat, which was pretty strong for a feat, but feels balanced for a 7th level class ability.
As near as I can tell, this pretty much addresses the concerns regarding the "Special ability" usage, without going over the top...and stays true to the flavor of the class.
Opinions ?
Here are the changes I have applied to the Spellblade.
I think they are reasonably balanced (?)....but would love opinions and suggestions.Existing first level Infusion ability is replaced with......
Arcane Strike (Sp): You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapon with magical energy. As a swift action, you can imbue your weapon with a fraction of your power. The spellblade can grant any single melee weapon a +1 magic enhancement on attack and damage rolls, and for purposes of overcoming magic resistance.
The effects last for a number of rounds equal to 3 + Intelligence modifier rounds.
For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
While a spellblade often chooses a single weapon to use this ability, he may switch weapons throughout the duration of the ability (although he cannot infuse more than one weapon in a single round). Should a spellblade let go of a weapon (e.g. throwing or dropping it) then it loses its infusion prior to the spellblade’s next turn.This ability is just a slightly improved version of the feat Arcane strike. This pretty much functions the same as Weapons training (a little more limited than the fighter ability as it has a duration, and requires a swift action spent).
Bonus feat, at 2nd, 11th, 14th, and 19th, level.
At 7th level, they gain .....
Arcane infusion (Sp): When you activate this ability, ( a swift action) you can channel greater arcane energy into a melee weapon, your unarmed strike, or natural weapons. You must sacrifice one of your spells for the day (of 1st level or higher) but you gain a bonus on all attack rolls for one round equal to the level of the spell sacrificed, as well as extra damage equal to 1D4 x the level of the spell sacrificed. The bonus you add to your attack rolls cannot be greater than your base attack bonus.
This is the 3.5 version of the Arcane strike feat, which was pretty strong for a feat, but feels balanced for a 7th level class ability.
You hit the same problem with Arcane Strike as you do with the original ability. Its an enhancement bonus and does not stack with a magic weapon.
The second one, Arcane Infusion works for me, I included something similar in my shot at a warrior/mage.
So I need to switch the bonus type.......should I just go un-typed ?
Circumstance ?
Just to make sure I'm clear :P
I've looked over the Arcane strike feat, and it makes no mention of it being an enhancement bonus.....so it does stack with enhancement bonuses right ?
Just to make sure I'm clear :P
I've looked over the Arcane strike feat, and it makes no mention of it being an enhancement bonus.....so it does stack with enhancement bonuses right ?
Arcane strike is an untyped bonus (which stacks with everything except if you some how took arcane strike twice), though it is only a bonus to damage. I would honestly leave the ability seperate from the feat. After all arcane strike is one of the better feat options for a fighter mage, no reason to take that away.
If you want to type your bonus i would recommend morale or competance bonus. Allowing too many untyped bonuses could get messy especially if there is another buffer in the party. And this is a pretty significant bonus as you go up in levels. But definately dont make it an enhancement bonus.
My intent was to fashion the ability as a "greater" version of the Arcane strike feat, which functioned the same, but gave the bonus to damage and attack roll.
I had considered just giving the spellblade Arcane strike at first level as a bonus feat.....but then decided I wanted it to be a little closer to weapons training in function.
I have re-worded the first level ability, hopefully to make it clear that it is not an enhancement bonus, as well as seperating it from the feat.
At 1st level........
Arcane Infusion (Sp): You draw upon your arcane power to infuse a weapon with magical energy. As a swift action, you can grant any single weapon a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls, and the weapon is treated as magic for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
The effects last for a number of rounds equal to 3 + Intelligence modifier.
For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
While a spellblade often chooses a single weapon to use this ability, he may switch weapons throughout the duration of the ability (although he cannot infuse more than one weapon in a single round). Should a spellblade let go of a weapon (e.g. throwing or dropping it) it then loses its infusion prior to the spellblade’s next turn.
At 7th (might be moving this to 8th level).....
Arcane channeling (Sp): When you activate this ability, ( a swift action) you can channel greater arcane energy into a melee weapon, your unarmed strike, or natural weapons. You must sacrifice one of your spells for the day (of 1st level or higher) but you gain a bonus on all attack rolls for one round equal to the level of the spell sacrificed, as well as extra damage equal to 1D4 x the level of the spell sacrificed. The bonus you add to your attack rolls cannot be greater than your base attack bonus.
My intent was to fashion the ability as a "greater" version of the Arcane strike feat, which functioned the same, but gave the bonus to damage and attack roll.
I had considered just giving the spellblade Arcane strike at first level as a bonus feat.....but then decided I wanted it to be a little closer to weapons training in function.I have re-worded the first level ability, hopefully to make it clear that it is not an enhancement bonus, as well as seperating it from the feat.
At 1st level........
Arcane Infusion (Sp): You draw upon your arcane power to infuse a weapon with magical energy. As a swift action, you can grant any single weapon a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls, and the weapon is treated as magic for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
The effects last for a number of rounds equal to 3 + Intelligence modifier.
For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
While a spellblade often chooses a single weapon to use this ability, he may switch weapons throughout the duration of the ability (although he cannot infuse more than one weapon in a single round). Should a spellblade let go of a weapon (e.g. throwing or dropping it) it then loses its infusion prior to the spellblade’s next turn.At 7th (might be moving this to 8th level).....
Arcane channeling (Sp): When you activate this ability, ( a swift action) you can channel greater arcane energy into a melee weapon, your unarmed strike, or natural weapons. You must sacrifice one of your spells for the day (of 1st level or higher) but you gain a bonus on all attack rolls for one round equal to the level of the spell sacrificed, as well as extra damage equal to 1D4 x the level of the spell sacrificed. The bonus you add to your attack rolls cannot be greater than your base attack bonus.
Seems ok to me. Only question I have, is the first ability a limited use per day? Or is it unlimited? The original infusion was rounds per day, yours appears to be unlimited with a set duration. Is that intentional?
Seems ok to me. Only question I have, is the first ability a limited use per day? Or is it unlimited? The original infusion was rounds per day, yours appears...
Mechanically I wanted it to be close to the bonus a fighter get's from the "weapons training" ability, but not "AS" good as that ability.
So I went for usable as often, same basic bonus, but required the swift action to activate, and limited duration before requiring re-activation.
I'm doing my final "run through" on the spellblade, and one of the things I am looking at is that the class offers something at every level.....which is more or less the case.
The class only has 17th level as a dead level, but gains more than one increase on several other levels, so I think I'm good there.
1st level: Arcane armor training, Arcane Infusion +1.
2nd level: Bonus feat
3rd level: Special Ability +1
4th level: Spell level (2nd)
5th level: Arcane Infusion +2
6th level: Special Ability +1
7th level: Spell level(3rd)
8th level: Arcane channeling
9th level: Special Ability +1
10th level: Arcane Infusion +3 Spell level(4th)
11th level: Bonus feat
12th level: Special Ability +2
13th level: Spell level(5th)
14th level: Bonus feat
15th level: Special Ability +2, Arcane Infusion +4
16th level: Spell level(6th)
17th level:
18th level: Special Ability +2
19th level: Bonus feat
20th level: Arcane Infusion +5.
So now the question becomes....do I need a capstone ability for 20th level ??? or is the class good "as is".