Is there now a 50% miss chance for positive engery and incorporeal undead? I checked the Bestiary and this part from 3.5 is missing.
I think I asked Jason at GenCon and he said he thought it was still in there.
thanks
Mike
There is no 50% miss chance, since it does damage. The only question is does it only do half damage? That depends on if positive energy is corporeal or not.
Since channel energy is a burst effect, that means it doesn't affect creatures with total cover. So, I think it is fair to say that positive energy is corporeal, at least when delivered by channel energy. For consistency, I'd probably rule that positive energy is corporeal in all forms of delivery (eg. a cure spell).
Given that, I'd say incorporeal undead only take 1/2 damage from positive energy.
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I am 99% cetrain that the damage reduction from incoporealness does not apply to energy damage.
While I agree, there is nothing in the books I can find that says that. It only calls out Force spells. Also, with Healing, a 50% Miss chance does mean that a Touch spell is not wasted, it just never goes off at all, so you can use it next round (if you don't cast something else in it's place).
Incorporeal: Creatures with the incorporeal condition do not have a physical body. Incorporeal creatures are immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Incorporeal creatures take half damage (50%) from magic weapons, spells, spell-like effects, and supernatural effects. Incorporeal creatures take full damage from other incorporeal creatures and effects, as well as all force effects.Channel Energy (Su): Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.
A good cleric (or one who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or one who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric who worships a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy...
Im in for half damage too.
The point was, that Positive and Negative energy always worked normally agaist Incorporeal Undead. It still says that Holy Water works normally.
Maybe that was an intentional change, but I think it was a mistake, personally.
Same, and I would (house) rule it that positive energy effect would affect undead fully. It is, however, antithetical to their very being. AT least burst type effects, such as channel energy or mass cure light wounds, would hit them.
Those delivered from a corporeal source, such as touch, would take the 50% reduction.
It's all in the delivery sytem.
But then that's me...
The point was, that Positive and Negative energy always worked normally agaist Incorporeal Undead. It still says that Holy Water works normally.
Maybe that was an intentional change, but I think it was a mistake, personally.
Just quoting RAW.
I do not object to give incorporeal undead vulnerability(+50% effect) to positive and negative(counterintuitive since they benefit from it) energy to compensate.
I think it fits them better too.
Unless it has an ability that says positive energy only does half damage it would be full
I think it's just an oversight in the wording
Unless it has an ability that says positive energy only does half damage it would be full
I think it's just an oversight in the wording
Maybe it is, but incorporeality description just says that.
..."50% damage from magic weapons, spells, spell-like effects, and supernatural effects."...
Channel energy is a supernatural effect.
..."Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source."...
where 3.5 rule added:
(except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons)Channel energy has a corporeal source; the cleric's holy symbol.
By RAW this means half damage for channel energy against incorporeal undead.
For now the missing 3.5 text can be houseruled in if we wish.
Which is perfectly reasonable while this is not adressed officially in a FAQ.
Hm... :-m
Then, would Disrupt Undead have that 50% reduction as well?
Disrupt undead is only a spell, and I dont think RAW or RAI it bypass the 50%, but I allow it because it was made for undead. As for the channeling I will assume until otherwise corrected that it was bypass the normal 50% rule since it specifically targets undead. I think it's a typo.
Disrupt undead is only a spell, and I dont think RAW or RAI it bypass the 50%, but I allow it because it was made for undead. As for the channeling I will assume until otherwise corrected that it was bypass the normal 50% rule since it specifically targets undead. I think it's a typo.Hm... :-m
Then, would Disrupt Undead have that 50% reduction as well?
100% agreement here
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It is my belief that the text is in error and will be errata'd, primarily from this bit from Crypt of the Everflame.
Incorporeal Woes
Incorporeal undead are dangerous to fight in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. They take only 50% of any damage from a corporeal source, and only if that source is magical in nature, such as the +1 dagger hidden in the fire. Nonmagical weapons cannot harm incorporeal creatures at all. In addition, the PCs can use energy damage (such as from a burning torch) to hurt the shadow, but it only takes half damage from this source as well. Most spells do only half damage, with the exception of force effects (such as magic missile), which do full damage. Of course, channeled energy affects incorporeal undead normally.
It troubles me that this was not mentioned in the Bestiary or Core book, so take this as you will. However, as Jason Bulmahn did write this module, it seems safe to say that he would know what he was talking about.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
asknethys@karuikage.net
It troubles me that this was not mentioned in the Bestiary or Core book, so take this as you will. However, as Jason Bulmahn did write this module, it seems safe to say that he would know what he was talking about.
Although, the Bestiary came out after the Crypt of the Everflame, so it is also possible that the Bestiary should be viewed as the more definitive source.
It still feels like it comes down to is positive energy corporeal? If positive energy is incorporeal, then it affects incorporeal undead 100%. If positive energy is corporeal, then it affects incorporeal undead 50%. Seems like this would be true regardless of the delivery mechanism (disrupt undead, cure spells, channel energy, or holy water).
In 3.5, I don't see a 50% miss chance for positive energy spells, but there is a 50% miss chance for holy water. If positive energy spells had a 50% miss chance in 3.5, then having them only do 50% damage is functionally equivalent since the miss chance has now been dropped.
Only evidence I can see about positive energy being either one is that channel energy is a burst, not a spread. This means it can't go around corners, and it doesn't affect creatures that have cover. If it was an incorporeal source, it doesn't seem like corners or a tower shield (for example) would matter.
An errata or official clarification would be awesome.
I'll probably house rule that positive energy affects incorporeal undead 100% to avoid a TPK in an upcoming battle. Otherwise, channel energy, save for half, and take 50% of that will make it nearly impossible for the PCs to handle even a weak incorporeal creature. Having to do up to 4x HPs in channel damage given no magic weapons at their level is absolutely brutal.
Director of Game Design
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| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. |
Crypt of the Everflame was written before the bestiary had fully come together and as a result, it has some inaccuracies.
As for this particular issue, there is nothing in the rules exempting channel energy from being reduced by the incorporeal UMR (universal monster rule). Using the rules as written, this means that it is reduced.
That said.. it probably should not be, but that is a matter I will take up when we get to errata for that book.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Also, with Healing, a 50% Miss chance does mean that a Touch spell is not wasted, it just never goes off at all, so you can use it next round (if you don't cast something else in it's place).
I thought that, but now I can't find that rule. Where is it?
Also, with Healing, a 50% Miss chance does mean that a Touch spell is not wasted, it just never goes off at all, so you can use it next round (if you don't cast something else in it's place).I thought that, but now I can't find that rule. Where is it?
See Holding a Charge, pg 185, although there is no 50% chance for affecting incorporeal undead with a heal spell in any case. It's just a 50% reduction in damage (without an errata). If you touch a shadow with a CLW spell, roll your damage, roll the save, and take 50% of that. No 50% roll to affect it or not.
Only time you have a 50% chance is if the spell or effect doesn't cause damage (eg. Magic Jar). Even then, it isn't clear that a touch spell fails to be delivered. Debatably, the way it reads, the spell is triggered, but it doesn't have an effect. It isn't a miss chance like concealment. It's a chance that the effect doesn't function (but I bet most DMs treat it as a miss).
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Crypt of the Everflame was written before the bestiary had fully come together and as a result, it has some inaccuracies.
As for this particular issue, there is nothing in the rules exempting channel energy from being reduced by the incorporeal UMR (universal monster rule). Using the rules as written, this means that it is reduced.
That said.. it probably should not be, but that is a matter I will take up when we get to errata for that book.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The wording was errataed to indicated incorporeal creatures take full damage from Channel Energy from 1st printing to 2nd printing (and in the PRD) but the wording in the 3rd printing of the Bestiary has gone back to the unerrataed 1st version. In addition, the PDF of the 2nd printing of Bestiary 2 has just been released, and it also indicates Channel Energy damage is halved for incorporeal creatures.
What's the deal, Jason? Was it errated and then unerrataed?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Seems there is still some confusion about how Positive energy from a cure spell affects incorporeal undead.
One more question; How does positive and negative energy affect creatures that are incorporeal, but not undead, such as a shadow demon?
Everyone seems to be referencing the glossary rules for incorporeal from the CRB instead of the universal monster rules from the bestiary.
The former doesn't reference channel energy at all, but at least on the official website ( linked above) it clearly states that an incorporeal creature "even when hit by spells or magic weapons, takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy)."
(emphasis mine)
That said, channel energy (the ability) should deal full healing or damage to incorporeal undead, according to the form being channeled. However, other spells which just happen to channel positive or negative energy would still suffer a 50% reduction in output when used to harm or heal an incorporeal undead creature. (Unless the DM ruled otherwise, of course, which I would fully understand.)
That said, there may be issues with the printings in reflecting this. But in such a case the official website, which is supposed to be the most complete and up-to-date consolidation of all sources for the PF system, should reasonably take precedence, IMHO.
Hope that helps.