Player; my paladin smites evil with a holy couch! as he also power attacks for the max, he rolls a natural 20, does a 32 confirm
DM; It confirms, Uuuuuuggghhh, How much damage does a couch deal?
Player; 2d6 per foot of the couch, in other words 20d6.
Player; darn, 22d6, +80 +20 +24. i won't bother making you roll that weapon, it deals 201 average damage a swing. but since it's a crit, we'll just call it 400 and say the terrasque drops dead.
DM; i'll agree with that one one extra clause, as the terrasque is ripped to shreds, so is the couch.
Player; How could my almighty couch be destroyed? smells like DM fiat!
DM; You got to use your couch, and besides, it's broken. guess i am banning the future use of furniture as a weapon. so no more paladins 2handing couches.
Player; only 70 of it came from the couch, 80 came from my 3 feat power attack chain, 7 from holy and +5 from a spell, the same one that granted holy and 19, is 13 multiplied by 1.5 and 20 from my smite.
DM; No furniture as weapons, Especially no couches, there would be no such thing as balance if there wasn't DM fiat. now leave my table and never come back you munchkin.
Player; Flips the bird as he walks, stomps and slams the door as he leaves.
Player; my paladin smites evil with a holy couch! as he also power attacks for the max, he rolls a natural 20, does a 32 confirm
DM; It confirms, Uuuuuuggghhh, How much damage does a couch deal?
Player; 2d6 per foot of the couch, in other words 20d6.
Player; darn, 22d6, +80 +20 +24. i won't bother making you roll that weapon, it deals 201 average damage a swing. but since it's a crit, we'll just call it 400 and say the terrasque drops dead.
DM; i'll agree with that one one extra clause, as the terrasque is ripped to shreds, so is the couch.
Player; How could my almighty couch be destroyed? smells like DM fiat!
DM; You got to use your couch, and besides, it's broken. guess i am banning the future use of furniture as a weapon. so no more paladins 2handing couches.
Player; only 70 of it came from the couch, 80 came from my 3 feat power attack chain, 7 from holy and +5 from a spell, the same one that granted holy and 19, is 13 multiplied by 1.5 and 20 from my smite.
DM; No furniture as weapons, Especially no couches, there would be no such thing as balance if there wasn't DM fiat. now leave my table and never come back you munchkin.
Player; Flips the bird as he walks, stomps and slams the door as he leaves.
And what did you do afterwards, child? Did you take revenge on the GM?
And what did you do afterwards, child? Did you take revenge on the GM?Player; my paladin smites evil with a holy couch! as he also power attacks for the max, he rolls a natural 20, does a 32 confirm
DM; It confirms, Uuuuuuggghhh, How much damage does a couch deal?
Player; 2d6 per foot of the couch, in other words 20d6.
Player; darn, 22d6, +80 +20 +24. i won't bother making you roll that weapon, it deals 201 average damage a swing. but since it's a crit, we'll just call it 400 and say the terrasque drops dead.
DM; i'll agree with that one one extra clause, as the terrasque is ripped to shreds, so is the couch.
Player; How could my almighty couch be destroyed? smells like DM fiat!
DM; You got to use your couch, and besides, it's broken. guess i am banning the future use of furniture as a weapon. so no more paladins 2handing couches.
Player; only 70 of it came from the couch, 80 came from my 3 feat power attack chain, 7 from holy and +5 from a spell, the same one that granted holy and 19, is 13 multiplied by 1.5 and 20 from my smite.
DM; No furniture as weapons, Especially no couches, there would be no such thing as balance if there wasn't DM fiat. now leave my table and never come back you munchkin.
Player; Flips the bird as he walks, stomps and slams the door as he leaves.
i never did that, it was purely fictional. it was made up to show how munchkin the feat can be.
Well I don't see how the feat is broken. The feat clearly states that the improvised weapon is given damage as per something equivelant in size and function. So a chair leg becomes a club, perhaps a larger chair leg becomes a great club, a beer mug becomes a sap, a sharp broken thin piece of wood might be considered a dagger, a heavy serving tray as a shield, etc.
Its a pretty simple feat that can only be used in the manner above only if the 1. The DM is an idiot, 2. The DM allows idiot players to his table, which he deserves to have munchkin players if he games with idiots.
Its a pretty simple feat that can only be used in the manner above only if the 1. The DM is an idiot, 2. The DM allows idiot players to his table, which he deserves to have munchkin players if he games with idiots.
Hey now, sometimes we don't get to choose the people at our table, like if you're running a program or open play. As a GM who has worked in an after school D&D program I can safely say sometimes you have to play with the hand you're dealt, even if that hand includes two bickering 10-year-olds and a high-school student who knows way to much about the rules and how to bend them.
That being said, I don't really see how Catch Off-Guard could ever be considered broken, unless you're playing a rogue. All it does is render an opponent flat-footed (if I'm reading the rules right here) which isn't much of a boon in certain situations (such as a dragon). In the above example, an attack against the Tarrasque wouldn't benefit much at all from a flat-footed attack, seeing as the bulk of its armor class comes from natural armor.
|
So I have to ask, since I see this come up all the time and I'm starting to post now instead of just lurking...the overall prevalent use of munchkin as a negative term.
"You try to play D&D by the rules in a way that benefits you!"
....K?
So long as you have a character concept and continue to act out the role of the character, if you build your character in a way that maximizes efficiency I don't see how you're being a bad player.
"omg you're trying to be the best at what you do!"
Go team?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Female archers or crossbow men can now threaten in melee with their trusty missile weapons!Catch off guard makes anything a weapon and quick draw only applies to weapons it means you can draw ANYTHING as a free action...
Your DM might say the bow is damaged after a nice strike.
You also can't quickdraw unless you worked out with your DM a system of placing these items on your body in a way he considers similar to how a sword is stored.
DM; It confirms, Uuuuuuggghhh, How much damage does a couch deal?
Player; 2d6 per foot of the couch, in other words 20d6.
You lost me as soon as you started calculating damage by the foot.
|
|
I really think the flat-footed language in this feat needs to mean the opponent is flat-footed against the first attack only. It doesn't seem right to me that an opponent is going to be "caught off guard" more than once in a combat by a rogue who just walloped them with a stick pony. The name of the feat, to me, implies an attack that surprises the opponent due to its unorthodox use of bric-a-brac. Once the rogue has used this trick, is the opponent really going to surprised again?
|
PRD:
There is nothing in the feat catch off guard or in the rules for improvised weapons that talk about dealing damage by the foot. It says find a good match on the list(of weapons in the equipment chapter) and use that weapons stats. There are no weapons in the equipment tables that deal more than 2d6.
I do not believe damage by the foot is a part of pathfinder. If it was people would be wielding gnomes over greatswords, as three feet of gnome bludgeoning damage would be better than a greatsword.
Although I must admit I find the idea of wielding gnomes as weapons...intriguing. Maybe we should ask for gnome-as-weapons damage tables in the APG.
love,
malkav
I don't think it's that problematic. You pay a feat to consider a normal object to be a regular weapon. Yes, I suppose if you're clever that means that yes, if you say, "I'm prepared to jab at the guy with the arrow in my hand," you are considered armed with a missile weapon. But you're still not going to be doing much damage with it--I don't see that in itself being a gamebreaker. And paying for a feat for the ability to do that is fine.
And I think it also might be reasonable for the GM to rule that to switch between using your ranged weapon as an impovised melee weapon and to use it as a ranged weapon proper would take a move action. Yes, Quick Draw could probably bypass that, but frankly, if you're an archer, you should be using different feats to stand FAR FAR away from melee use your weapon as intended, where you'll be doing far more damage and at hopefully a much faster rate.
As for the Holy Couch, I think if you're trying to wield a "weapon" that for most character builds at least puts you into the "heavily encumbered" category--if you can pick it up at all--you have other problems. You can only "stagger around" with an item you can only just lift over your head (twice your heavy load limit).
Not to mention, I reckon it's the GM who would get final say on how much damage an improvised weapon does. That's not "GM fiat," it's common sense. Not meaning to sound snarky, but the rulebook would have weighed four more pounds if they had to write "Please use common sense" after every new ability they introduced that someone could intentionally misread to the point of silliness.
With a missile weapon:
Female archers or crossbow men can now threaten in melee with their trusty missile weapons!
Off topic, but why only FEMALE archers, or only MEN with crossbows? (Why not generally archers and crossbow-wielders?)
With Quick Draw:
Catch off guard makes anything a weapon and quick draw only applies to weapons it means you can draw ANYTHING as a free action... need rope fast? a tinder box? a POTION? BAM!
Quick Draw rules explicitly state you cannot quick draw a potion (nor alchemical items, scrolls, or wands).
I would also reckon that the "hidden item" rule would apply to normal items you had, say, tucked away in a pouch--and thus with quick draw would take a move action to draw (instead of a standard).
That being said, I don't really see how Catch Off-Guard could ever be considered broken, unless you're playing a rogue. All it does is render an opponent flat-footed (if I'm reading the rules right here)
All due respect, but I'm not sure that you are (or maybe I'm misreading you!). The feat description says, "Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon." Note that unarmed opponents are ALWAYS flat-footed against anyone wielding a weapon; it's just that normally this doesn't apply to improvised weapons. Caught-Off Guard changes this because it makes improvised weapons "count" as real weapons--but it doesn't render anyone else flat-footed who wouldn't normally be.
And now I'm off to finish prepping my Pathfinder demo for this weekend. Dwarf fighter's weapon of choice will in fact be a barstool. :)
|
|
Note that unarmed opponents are ALWAYS flat-footed against anyone wielding a weapon
Where is this in the core rulebook because I can't find it. Page 182 states unarmed attackers provoke attacks of opportunity from armed defenders but says nothing about being flat-footed. Page 178 also doesn't say anything about unarmed attackers being considered flat-footed in the description of the flat-footed condition.
Note that unarmed opponents are ALWAYS flat-footed against anyone wielding a weaponWhere is this in the core rulebook because I can't find it. Page 182 states unarmed attackers provoke attacks of opportunity from armed defenders but says nothing about being flat-footed. Page 178 also doesn't say anything about unarmed attackers being considered flat-footed in the description of the flat-footed condition.
Whoops, you're right about that, I misremembered (for a moment, for some reason I confused "provokes AOO" with "is flat-footed").
Hopefully other part of my point still stands--Caught Off Guard renders UNARMED opponents flat-footed only. The earlier discussion seemed to be worded to suggest anyone was flat-footed because of it.
|
|
No problem. I just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed an important rule. I didn't really clarify when I made my statement, but I'm not concerned with whether the opponent is unarmed or not. I still don't think an unarmed opponent should remain flat-footed provided he survives the initial attack. Not that it happens all the time, but it would essentially encourage every rogue with this feat to carry around a favored miscellaneous object for whenever they challenge an unarmed opponent or disarm an armed one. Why fight some unarmed guy with this +1 rapier when I can hit him with this chamberpot for sneak attack damage every round? See what I'm saying? I'm ruling this as a once per combat ability in my games. I think the fact that you can use any object you can swing as a weapon is already awesome enough.
All due respect, but I'm not sure that you are (or maybe I'm misreading you!). The feat description says, "Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon." Note that unarmed opponents are ALWAYS flat-footed against anyone wielding a weapon; it's just that normally this doesn't apply to improvised weapons. Caught-Off Guard changes this because it makes improvised weapons "count" as real weapons--but it doesn't render anyone else flat-footed who wouldn't normally be.
This is actually all the more evidence to support my original statement (it's just really clarifying something I missed).
My point was this: Catch Off-guard is not broken because of its limited application to select situations, and the fact that, as a feat, it's not all that impressive. That's what I was trying to say.
DM; It confirms, Uuuuuuggghhh, How much damage does a couch deal?
Player; 2d6 per foot of the couch, in other words 20d6.You lost me as soon as you started calculating damage by the foot.
** spoiler omitted **
it was a joke.
a couch weighs more than a greatsword and is a lot larger. do you remember a thread about a paladin who smote evil with a couch? it was a throwback to that. paladins with couches are deadly. a couch wouldn't really do that damage. that's just something a munchkin would whip together. my group has a designated munchkin with a few established patterns, he abuses the size rules and the reach rules on a frequent basis. my dm banned the mage slayer feat beleiving it was the problem. the true problem is his abuse of size increases and the reach rules.