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Giant Lizard: Summon Nature's Ally III


Rules Questions


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

So on the Summon Nature's Ally 3 list is the "Giant Lizard"

Now in the Bestiary, I can only find one "Giant Lizard" and that's the Giant Frilled Lizard.

I was assuming that was the right creature, until I started looking at the stats, and it seems pretty potent against the other creatures on the list.

That wouldn't suprise me too much, the Ant Drone is far more powerful than it's SNA II brethren, as is the Riding Dog at SNA I.

However, I am wondering if perhaps they meant the Monitor Lizard, which, although doesn't have "Giant" in the name at all, the abilities would fit more in line with the other SNA III creatures.

Or is there supposed to be another Giant Lizard entry in the Bestiary that maybe got edited out, like the camel.

Anyone have an opinion on this?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It is just my opinion, but I would go with the Monitor Lizard. Comparing it to most of the creatures available for SNA III, the Giant Frilled Lizard is just too powerful.

I've only skimmed through a handful of the creatures and they mainly appear to be CR2.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The Giant Frilled Lizard would probably be too powerful on the SNA IV list too.

And I have to thank you for your post. It made me realize that I was still using 3.5 stats for my Summon Monster cheat sheet.


Gray wrote:

The Giant Frilled Lizard would probably be too powerful on the SNA IV list too.

And I have to thank you for your post. It made me realize that I was still using 3.5 stats for my Summon Monster cheat sheet.

Wow - MASSIVE changes in Pathfinder to creature statistics.

It's so odd to have creatures like the Ape and Bison be on the lower tier power-wise!

Dark Archive

Treantmonk wrote:
Gray wrote:

The Giant Frilled Lizard would probably be too powerful on the SNA IV list too.

And I have to thank you for your post. It made me realize that I was still using 3.5 stats for my Summon Monster cheat sheet.

Wow - MASSIVE changes in Pathfinder to creature statistics.

It's so odd to have creatures like the Ape and Bison be on the lower tier power-wise!

Yeah, I've been working at making a list based on your Mastering the Malconvoker, but I've only gotten to SM IV so far. It's so time-consuming, and I have finals to write!


Treantmonk wrote:


Or is there supposed to be another Giant Lizard entry in the Bestiary that maybe got edited out, like the camel.

Camel is in the Core Rulebook page 54.

As far as Giant Lizard: I'd use the statistics given for Monitor Lizard under "monitor lizard companions: 7th-level advancement" in the Bestiary page 194.


Are wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:


Or is there supposed to be another Giant Lizard entry in the Bestiary that maybe got edited out, like the camel.

Camel is in the Core Rulebook page 54.

As far as Giant Lizard: I'd use the statistics given for Monitor Lizard under "monitor lizard companions: 7th-level advancement" in the Bestiary page 194.

No, this needs to be fixed.

*CLEARLY* the ant's were switched, the soldier should be where the drone is, and vice versa. Also: there needs to *be* stats for this creature.

Is this just ignored? Can I has an errata plz?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ugh... while we tried our best to make sure the Summon Monster lists were accurate, there is obviously some errors.

Errata is:

Change Giant Lizard to Monitor Lizard. (The lists don't support summoning a giant frilled lizard, but you could probably add them to summon monster V or summon nature's ally V.)

Change Riding Dog to Dog.

Change Ant, drone to Ant, worker.

Change Ant, soldier to Ant, giant.

The majority of these errors, I suspect, came from miscommunication between what was and wasn't changing with these animals in the switchover between the 3.5 Monster Manual and the Pathfinder Bestiary.

A few other notes:

The Giant Frilled Lizard is so much tougher than a bison or an ape because it's something that probably would HUNT bisons or apes. It'd be best to compare the giant frilled lizard ecologically wise to a tiger or bear; it's a top-tier predator.

Camels will be in the Bestiary II. If you need stats before then, though, they'll be VERY similar to the stats for a horse, except they'll have some sort of long-term go without water ability.


Camel's also have a ranged touch attack ability to sicken without save throw according to the druid's animal companion list. That is one reason I would actually summon one. It's one of the earliest "ability/debuff" creatures in the game, especially with a decent chance of success, and the ability to keep it up and alive.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Abraham spalding wrote:
Camel's also have a ranged touch attack ability to sicken without save throw according to the druid's animal companion list. That is one reason I would actually summon one. It's one of the earliest "ability/debuff" creatures in the game, especially with a decent chance of success, and the ability to keep it up and alive.

Personally... I kinda wish that ability hadn't gone in. It feels a little bit too "meta." Would an aboleth or a xorn or a giant spider or another camel or an air elemental REALLY be sickened by being spit on by a camel? It's a bit too "cute" for my tastes. We WILL need to support this attack in Bestiary II, I guess, when it comes out, but I'll be pushing to put in some additional language there to limit the sickened effect to other humanoids.


Quote:

Change Giant Lizard to Monitor Lizard. (The lists don't support summoning a giant frilled lizard, but you could probably add them to summon monster V or summon nature's ally V.)

Change Riding Dog to Dog.

Change Ant, drone to Ant, worker.

Change Ant, soldier to Ant, giant.

That makes a lot more sense.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Personally... I kinda wish that ability hadn't gone in. It feels a little bit too "meta." Would an aboleth or a xorn or a giant spider or another camel or an air elemental REALLY be sickened by being spit on by a camel? It's a bit too "cute" for my tastes. We WILL need to support this attack in Bestiary II, I guess, when it comes out, but I'll be pushing to put in some additional language there to limit the sickened effect to other humanoids.

Wow. I hadn't noticed that one. That does seem a little, err.. silly. At least give it an easy DC saving throw or something.


jreyst wrote:


Wow. I hadn't noticed that one. That does seem a little, err.. silly. At least give it an easy DC saving throw or something.

Good point. In the Druid animal companion entry it doesn't say there is a saving throw at all...


Can't say I'm too surprised to hear that... I had originally been expecting it to be a shot to the eyes to blind, and was surprised that it didn't at least have a save throw. However since it didn't seem to be noticed I thought it was on purpose to 'even out' the camel against the horse somehow (as we don't have stats I wasn't sure the camel didn't have different stats than the horse).


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For anyone who uses d20pfsrd.com, we've updated the summon spells to reflect James' statements above.


Treantmonk wrote:


It's so odd to have creatures like the Ape and Bison be on the lower tier power-wise!

Note, however, that the Bison (and the lower CR Aurochs) now have the Trample ability. That came as a surprise to me when someone pointed it out.


James Jacobs wrote:

Ugh... while we tried our best to make sure the Summon Monster lists were accurate, there is obviously some errors.

Errata is:

Oh my. I wasn't actually expecting you to, you know, meet my request.

PAIZO 4 LIFE.

You guys are awesome.
-Campbell

Paizo Employee Creative Director

hogarth wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:


It's so odd to have creatures like the Ape and Bison be on the lower tier power-wise!

Note, however, that the Bison (and the lower CR Aurochs) now have the Trample ability. That came as a surprise to me when someone pointed it out.

But should come as no surprise to anyone who's dealt with bison in real life, I bet.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

James Jacobs wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:


It's so odd to have creatures like the Ape and Bison be on the lower tier power-wise!

Note, however, that the Bison (and the lower CR Aurochs) now have the Trample ability. That came as a surprise to me when someone pointed it out.
But should come as no surprise to anyone who's dealt with bison in real life, I bet.

They should probably both have Improved Bull Rush as a bonus feat though!


Change Riding Dog to Dog..oww that's just nerfed SM 1 completely as the riding dog was the only thing worth summoning on that.

Need to put this out on my pbp threads asap

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:


It's so odd to have creatures like the Ape and Bison be on the lower tier power-wise!

Note, however, that the Bison (and the lower CR Aurochs) now have the Trample ability. That came as a surprise to me when someone pointed it out.
But should come as no surprise to anyone who's dealt with bison in real life, I bet.

Yeah, something that big that can jump an 8 foot fence and out accelerate my motorcycle is not a critter I want to stand in front of when it gets going.


James Jacobs wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Note, however, that the Bison (and the lower CR Aurochs) now have the Trample ability. That came as a surprise to me when someone pointed it out.
But should come as no surprise to anyone who's dealt with bison in real life, I bet.

Maybe. Although I find it's a little surprising that getting run over by a 2,200 lb bison is more painful than getting run over by a 20,000 lb triceratops.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Treantmonk wrote:

So on the Summon Nature's Ally 3 list is the "Giant Lizard"

Now in the Bestiary, I can only find one "Giant Lizard" and that's the Giant Frilled Lizard.

I was assuming that was the right creature, until I started looking at the stats, and it seems pretty potent against the other creatures on the list.

That wouldn't suprise me too much, the Ant Drone is far more powerful than it's SNA II brethren, as is the Riding Dog at SNA I.

However, I am wondering if perhaps they meant the Monitor Lizard, which, although doesn't have "Giant" in the name at all, the abilities would fit more in line with the other SNA III creatures.

Or is there supposed to be another Giant Lizard entry in the Bestiary that maybe got edited out, like the camel.

Anyone have an opinion on this?

I'm sure you noticed I used the Monitor Lizard in my SNA sheets, I just assumed the mistake when I saw the Frilled abilities.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DM Wellard wrote:
Change Riding Dog to Dog..oww that's just nerfed SM 1 completely as the riding dog was the only thing worth summoning on that.

That should have been your first clue that it was a mistake. If one option is not just better than the rest, but head and shoulllders by far better, it's probably a mistake. The Riding Dog is as powerful as the Wolf on the SMII list, so it's not only too good for SMI, it's too good for SMII (why get one wolf when you can get 1d3 riding dogs that each are as good as a wolf?).


James Jacobs wrote:

Ugh... while we tried our best to make sure the Summon Monster lists were accurate, there is obviously some errors.

Errata is:

Change Giant Lizard to Monitor Lizard. (The lists don't support summoning a giant frilled lizard, but you could probably add them to summon monster V or summon nature's ally V.)

Change Riding Dog to Dog.

Change Ant, drone to Ant, worker.

Change Ant, soldier to Ant, giant.

The majority of these errors, I suspect, came from miscommunication between what was and wasn't changing with these animals in the switchover between the 3.5 Monster Manual and the Pathfinder Bestiary.

A few other notes:

The Giant Frilled Lizard is so much tougher than a bison or an ape because it's something that probably would HUNT bisons or apes. It'd be best to compare the giant frilled lizard ecologically wise to a tiger or bear; it's a top-tier predator.

Camels will be in the Bestiary II. If you need stats before then, though, they'll be VERY similar to the stats for a horse, except they'll have some sort of long-term go without water ability.

We need to FAQ James post so it makes it into the errata. This was made before official answer had to be posted in the FAQ so I am sure it is still official, but I don't want it to be forgotten.

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Ugh... while we tried our best to make sure the Summon Monster lists were accurate, there is obviously some errors.

Errata is:

Change Giant Lizard to Monitor Lizard. (The lists don't support summoning a giant frilled lizard, but you could probably add them to summon monster V or summon nature's ally V.)

Change Riding Dog to Dog.

Change Ant, drone to Ant, worker.

Change Ant, soldier to Ant, giant.

The majority of these errors, I suspect, came from miscommunication between what was and wasn't changing with these animals in the switchover between the 3.5 Monster Manual and the Pathfinder Bestiary.

A few other notes:

The Giant Frilled Lizard is so much tougher than a bison or an ape because it's something that probably would HUNT bisons or apes. It'd be best to compare the giant frilled lizard ecologically wise to a tiger or bear; it's a top-tier predator.

Camels will be in the Bestiary II. If you need stats before then, though, they'll be VERY similar to the stats for a horse, except they'll have some sort of long-term go without water ability.

We need to FAQ James post so it makes it into the errata. This was made before official answer had to be posted in the FAQ so I am sure it is still official, but I don't want it to be forgotten.

As far as I can tell, changes have been fully applied by the 4th printing and partly noted in the 3rd printing-4th printing errata.


Starglim wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Ugh... while we tried our best to make sure the Summon Monster lists were accurate, there is obviously some errors.

Errata is:

Change Giant Lizard to Monitor Lizard. (The lists don't support summoning a giant frilled lizard, but you could probably add them to summon monster V or summon nature's ally V.)

Change Riding Dog to Dog.

Change Ant, drone to Ant, worker.

Change Ant, soldier to Ant, giant.

The majority of these errors, I suspect, came from miscommunication between what was and wasn't changing with these animals in the switchover between the 3.5 Monster Manual and the Pathfinder Bestiary.

A few other notes:

The Giant Frilled Lizard is so much tougher than a bison or an ape because it's something that probably would HUNT bisons or apes. It'd be best to compare the giant frilled lizard ecologically wise to a tiger or bear; it's a top-tier predator.

Camels will be in the Bestiary II. If you need stats before then, though, they'll be VERY similar to the stats for a horse, except they'll have some sort of long-term go without water ability.

We need to FAQ James post so it makes it into the errata. This was made before official answer had to be posted in the FAQ so I am sure it is still official, but I don't want it to be forgotten.
As far as I can tell, changes have been fully applied by the 4th printing and partly noted in the 3rd printing-4th printing errata.

It is not in the PRD which claims to be up to date-->The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document contains all errata to the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Advanced Player's Guide as of 9/13/11.

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
It is not in the PRD which claims to be up to date-->The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document contains all errata to the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Advanced Player's Guide as of 9/13/11.

This PRD?

It appears to have all of these changes applied (and the change to the Giant Scorpion mentioned in 3rd printing errata).


Starglim wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
It is not in the PRD which claims to be up to date-->The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document contains all errata to the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Advanced Player's Guide as of 9/13/11.

This PRD?

It appears to have all of these changes applied (and the change to the Giant Scorpion mentioned in 3rd printing errata).

Your link is pointing to Summon Nature's Ally (which has been corrected), not Summon Monster (which hasn't been completely updated -- it still has references to Giant Lizards and Riding Dogs).


Starglim wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
It is not in the PRD which claims to be up to date-->The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document contains all errata to the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Advanced Player's Guide as of 9/13/11.

This PRD?

It appears to have all of these changes applied (and the change to the Giant Scorpion mentioned in 3rd printing errata).

That is summon nature's ally which is not the same as summon monster.

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:
Starglim wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
It is not in the PRD which claims to be up to date-->The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document contains all errata to the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Advanced Player's Guide as of 9/13/11.

This PRD?

It appears to have all of these changes applied (and the change to the Giant Scorpion mentioned in 3rd printing errata).

That is summon nature's ally which is not the same as summon monster.

I certainly agree. The original question and, as far as I can tell, Mr. Jacobs' reply concerned summon nature's ally.

Since you bring it up, though, perhaps it would be useful to summarise what changes you see need to be made to the summon monster spells.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Starglim wrote:


I certainly agree. The original question and, as far as I can tell, Mr. Jacobs' reply concerned summon nature's ally.

No, the changes concern Summon Monster.

Quote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Ugh... while we tried our best to make sure the Summon Monster lists were accurate, there is obviously some errors.

Errata is:

Change Giant Lizard to Monitor Lizard. (The lists don't support summoning a giant frilled lizard, but you could probably add them to summon monster V or summon nature's ally V.)

Change Riding Dog to Dog.

Change Ant, drone to Ant, worker.

Change Ant, soldier to Ant, giant.

James calls this official(and at the time official changes were allowed on the messageboard), but it needs to be errata'd into the CRB, and the PRD.

I bumped the thread so people would FAQ it, and get it put into the next printing. I am sure there are not too many printings left of the core book, and there are still a few things, such as this that need to be fixed. I thing the higher level summon monster list are correct.

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