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Wizard dragon disciples are now possible?


Rules Questions

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:

A spell is either spontaneous or prepared. There is no third category.

They allow druid and clerics to add metamagic feats when they convert spells to healing or summon nature's ally. Clearly if the wizard was intended to have the same benefit of spontaneous magic they would simply let it be spontaneous.

The point is that the spell from the bonded item is not actually a spell, but a spell-like ability (as the Sp mentioned earlier) of the bonded item.

Andoran

The Grandfather wrote:


midknight wrote:
The benefit of becoming a bonded item are clear (its hitpoints are restored and it's more easily enchanted) but else, what are 'the drawbacks of becoming a bonded item'? (and don't tell me it's that the wizard needs it for casting, as that is a drawback of choosing to have that kind of item and it's a drawback for the wizard, not for the item, as the benefit is the extra spell)

Those are in deed benefits. But they are NOT magic properties.

Ok, but I asked for the 'drawbacks'. If losing previous abilities and that now only the wizard can use those abilities are not the drawbacks. Which are the drawbacks of becoming bonded for an item?

The Grandfather wrote:
Ludicrous.

Finally we agree in something!

A 1st level character having an artifact is just that. On the other hand if say, a 15th level wizard spends 9000 gp in losing its actual bond, bonding an artifact and unbonding it to bond another (loosing its previous bonded item and incurring in two weeks with high chances of spells failing) instead of investing that money in wands/scrolls/pay for casting a few disjunctions, it'd be ok for me as a GM (and would lead to interesting side-stories).


The Grandfather wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

A spell is either spontaneous or prepared. There is no third category.

They allow druid and clerics to add metamagic feats when they convert spells to healing or summon nature's ally. Clearly if the wizard was intended to have the same benefit of spontaneous magic they would simply let it be spontaneous.

The point is that the spell from the bonded item is not actually a spell, but a spell-like ability (as the Sp mentioned earlier) of the bonded item.

I agree, but Midknight is still trying to pass it off as a spontaneous spell which is what it would have to be since neither prepared spells or SLA's qualify.

If he insist on it being a spell, its still a prepared spell by the way it works.
When they errata this they should say its an SLA that functions like a prepared spell.


midknight wrote:
The Grandfather wrote:


midknight wrote:
The benefit of becoming a bonded item are clear (its hitpoints are restored and it's more easily enchanted) but else, what are 'the drawbacks of becoming a bonded item'? (and don't tell me it's that the wizard needs it for casting, as that is a drawback of choosing to have that kind of item and it's a drawback for the wizard, not for the item, as the benefit is the extra spell)

Those are in deed benefits. But they are NOT magic properties.

Ok, but I asked for the 'drawbacks'. If losing previous abilities and that now only the wizard can use those abilities are not the drawbacks. Which are the drawbacks of becoming bonded for an item?

The Grandfather wrote:
Ludicrous.

Finally we agree in something!

A 1st level character having an artifact is just that. On the other hand if say, a 15th level wizard spends 9000 gp in losing its actual bond, bonding an artifact and unbonding it to bond another (loosing its previous bonded item and incurring in two weeks with high chances of spells failing) instead of investing that money in wands/scrolls/pay for casting a few disjunctions, it'd be ok for me as a GM (and would lead to interesting side-stories).

What are you trying to do with those disjunctions? I am lost on how that is supposed to work for you.

Andoran

This is just silly. A wizard is not a spontaneous caster, period. If you could create a situation where they would not be able to cast something spontaneously, such as hiding/breaking the bonded item, then they will not meet the pre-req's. There is no situation where you would take a bard's or sorcerer's spontaneous spellcasting class ability away (Stat drain would make it unusable but it would still be a class feature)

Andoran

This has most likely been posted before but it is pretty straight forward. It is clear that the class is made for characters with an innate magic talent, not someone who learned from a schooling. It is clear from the spell progression that you are gaining sorcerer equivalent levels as it uses the draconic bloodline progression. The wizard progression does not fit with this in the level chart item of "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class". You would be gaining wizard levels which breaks the class concept completely

"Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level."

"A bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level."

"A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare."

Bard and sorcerer = do not prepare spell

Wizard = Prepares spells
-----------------------
DD Requirements

To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Race: Any nondragon.

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.

Languages: Draconic.

Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.


Shar Tahl wrote:

This has most likely been posted before but it is pretty straight forward. It is clear that the class is made for characters with an innate magic talent, not someone who learned from a schooling. It is clear from the spell progression that you are gaining sorcerer equivalent levels as it uses the draconic bloodline progression. The wizard progression does not fit with this in the level chart item of "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class". You would be gaining wizard levels which breaks the class concept completely

"Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level."

"A bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level."

"A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare."

Bard and sorcerer = do not prepare spell

Wizard = Prepares spells
-----------------------
DD Requirements

To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Race: Any nondragon.

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.

Languages: Draconic.

Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.

All this has been discused and from what I have read only one person, maybe two, believe that Wizards can qualify as spontaneous casters. If you read the thread it just circles...

BTW I'm in the can't be done camp.


Shar Tahl wrote:
This is just silly. A wizard is not a spontaneous caster, period. If you could create a situation where they would not be able to cast something spontaneously, such as hiding/breaking the bonded item, then they will not meet the pre-req's. There is no situation where you would take a bard's or sorcerer's spontaneous spellcasting class ability away (Stat drain would make it unusable but it would still be a class feature)

This is a situation where you have the letter of the law being used against the spirit of the law. I still dont see the letter of the law allowing it either, but there is enough room to make an argument, even though I dont see it as being valid.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

First off... I'm not a big fan of saying what you can and can't do in your home game. And as a result, I'm generally hesitant to lay down the law for things like this, since I can see the attraction to go either way. What it really boils down to is if the GM wants to let wizards qualify for the class... that's cool. Arcane bond's power to allow a wizard to cast an additional spell was not intended to let wizards "sneak" into prestige classes that do this, but there's no game balance reason as to why they shouldn't be able to do it.

But for materials we're publishing, though, and for building NPCs who might have this class, being able to cast arcane spells spontaneously means "being a bard or a sorcerer" at this point.

Qadira

James Jacobs wrote:

First off... I'm not a big fan of saying what you can and can't do in your home game. And as a result, I'm generally hesitant to lay down the law for things like this, since I can see the attraction to go either way. What it really boils down to is if the GM wants to let wizards qualify for the class... that's cool. Arcane bond's power to allow a wizard to cast an additional spell was not intended to let wizards "sneak" into prestige classes that do this, but there's no game balance reason as to why they shouldn't be able to do it.

But for materials we're publishing, though, and for building NPCs who might have this class, being able to cast arcane spells spontaneously means "being a bard or a sorcerer" at this point.

Thanks James


James Jacobs wrote:

First off... I'm not a big fan of saying what you can and can't do in your home game. And as a result, I'm generally hesitant to lay down the law for things like this, since I can see the attraction to go either way. What it really boils down to is if the GM wants to let wizards qualify for the class... that's cool. Arcane bond's power to allow a wizard to cast an additional spell was not intended to let wizards "sneak" into prestige classes that do this, but there's no game balance reason as to why they shouldn't be able to do it.

But for materials we're publishing, though, and for building NPCs who might have this class, being able to cast arcane spells spontaneously means "being a bard or a sorcerer" at this point.

Thank you. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
midknight wrote:


By my logic, and I am repeating myself, if a class feature allows a non-sorcerer, non-bard to cast 1st leves spells without preparation, I think it's ok.

There is no argument that the arcane bond is a class feature. However it's arguable that the arcane bond IS NOT the same class feature as spontaneous spellcasting but a different class feature that has a similar but not the same effect.

Since it is not the same class feature that is specified as a pre-req for the PrC it fails as to filling that requirement.

Both your argument and mine are logical constructs. As the DM, Occam's razor among other things leads me to favor the construct that shows less of a weasel/cheese factor.

Osirion

Paizo Superscriber
midknight wrote:

"Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation."

"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared."

A bonded item doesn't grant 1st level spontaneous spellcasting, so it wouldn't by RAW qualify just like P.A. didn't qualify for 2nd level spell casting.

I can appreciate the desire to parse every words and try to prove/disprove the meaning of this, but when those words are written they mean by RAW "I have a class feature called spellcasting that grants spontaneous spells of the given level" and nothing less.

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