No Search skill? Which skill is supposed to replace it? I've seen that Perception allows to find secret doors or passages, but what about looting bodies or searching a specific item in a treasure chest full of objects, for example?
Perception replaces Search in its entirety. Looting bodies and finding specific objects in a treasure chest were never official functions of Search.
One way our group has taken to accept the fact that Perception replaces Spot, Search, and Listen is in how it is rolled.
A passive perception check is like the old spot and listen, while an active perception check is search. One the DM rolls to see if you notice hidden information and the other is player rolled as they try and find something they think may be present.
but what about looting bodies or searching a specific item in a treasure chest full of objects, for example?
Both are quite automatic.
The body is dead, not fighting back, not resisting your search. You will automatically find everything it has. Likewise, finding a specific item in a treasure chest is automatic. You will automatically find what you're looking for if you spend enough time.
If, for some reason, you absolutely have to find just that one concealed personal item, or that one special doodad in the treasure chest, and you only have a very short amount of time, well, that's almost more a factor of luck (lucky enough to check the left pocket instead of the right one, lucky enough to dig halfway down near the far right corner of the chest full of goodies) and hardly seems to represent searching at all - searching takes time, methodically checking from one end to the other, leaving no pocket unturned, no doodad in the treasure chest unexamined.
As has been already suggested, 3.x Search never offered rules for doing this stuff either.
As has been already suggested, 3.x Search never offered rules for doing this stuff either.
One of the examples in the 3.x Dungeon Master's Guide (remember this page with all sort of examples of different uses of skills and their difficulty?) was ''finding a specific object in a chest filled with items'' and it was related to Search.
Still, I have to say the rules for looting bodies should've been what you guys said, since the body is offering no resistance. I like that change they made to Perception, it simplifies things a lot, but still... that skill has lots of uses now.
but what about looting bodies or searching a specific item in a treasure chest full of objects, for example?Both are quite automatic.
The body is dead, not fighting back, not resisting your search. You will automatically find everything it has. Likewise, finding a specific item in a treasure chest is automatic. You will automatically find what you're looking for if you spend enough time.
You will only find everything on a body if you strip it naked, inspect every stitch of fabric for hidden compartments, and then do a cavity search on the corpse. And even then a determined smuggler would find ways to make things difficult, especially given the ease of magical healing making surgical insertion far less of a problem than it might be.
I like that change they made to Perception, it simplifies things a lot, but still... that skill has lots of uses now.
Yup, it's Super-Skill (along with Acrobatics, a.k.a. Jump+Balance+Tumble).
"Can't believe I've just noticed this, but..."
Note the irony in this thread's title...;)
I failed to spot it.
If, for some reason, you absolutely have to find just that one concealed personal item, or that one special doodad in the treasure chest, and you only have a very short amount of time, well, that's almost more a factor of luck (lucky enough to check the left pocket instead of the right one, lucky enough to dig halfway down near the far right corner of the chest full of goodies) and hardly seems to represent searching at all - searching takes time, methodically checking from one end to the other, leaving no pocket unturned, no doodad in the treasure chest unexamined.
I see it differently. I think that finding things - even in plain sight - is a skill, and some people are better at it than others. I often fail to see what is plain in front of me. Others have a knack for checking the right place right away. Of course, luck is a factor - and in the d20 system, luck is VERY important. So I'd say that a Perception roll WOULD be appropriate for such a situation.
I see it differently. I think that finding things - even in plain sight - is a skill, and some people are better at it than others. I often fail to see what is plain in front of me. Others have a knack for checking the right place right away. Of course, luck is a factor - and in the d20 system, luck is VERY important. So I'd say that a Perception roll WOULD be appropriate for such a situation.
I'm going to agree with this. There IS a mechanic for the methodical body cavity search. Take 20. I would readily agree that it would take more than two minutes to search THAT thoroughly. I don't think most people want to get into that much detail (at least my players don't).
Personally I like and use the passive auto-take 10 approach to perception. This allows the players to stop rolling dice for every 10 ft. asking if they see anything (yes, my players are a bit nervous). If there is really something interesting they then ask for a "real" perception check. If they don't roll better than a 10 they still get their passive.
My two bits,
Kizan
My players always take 20 on looting corpses anyway, but I have to say we'd need a rule in case a player needs to loot a body really quickly. Thanks a lot guys, that answers my questions now!
You will only find everything on a body if you strip it naked, inspect every stitch of fabric for hidden compartments, and then do a cavity search on the corpse. And even then a determined smuggler would find ways to make things difficult, especially given the ease of magical healing making surgical insertion far less of a problem than it might be.This is where your profession: meat butcher comes into handy...what, noone's ever carved up the dragon's gut to see if it had loot there :)?
Any creature that has a "swallow whole" ability has a good chance of treasure being there.
Characters killed a legendary chimera then found an exalted staff once used by a saint lodge in its colon. It was later referred to as "the stinky stick."
This is where your profession: meat butcher comes into handy...what, noone's ever carved up the dragon's gut to see if it had loot there :)?
Takes me back to my AD&D days. We cut open everything on the off chance that it had swallowed something valuable.
I see it differently. I think that finding things - even in plain sight - is a skill, and some people are better at it than others. I often fail to see what is plain in front of me. Others have a knack for checking the right place right away. Of course, luck is a factor - and in the d20 system, luck is VERY important. So I'd say that a Perception roll WOULD be appropriate for such a situation.I'm going to agree with this. There IS a mechanic for the methodical body cavity search. Take 20. I would readily agree that it would take more than two minutes to search THAT thoroughly. I don't think most people want to get into that much detail (at least my players don't).
Personally I like and use the passive auto-take 10 approach to perception. This allows the players to stop rolling dice for every 10 ft. asking if they see anything (yes, my players are a bit nervous). If there is really something interesting they then ask for a "real" perception check. If they don't roll better than a 10 they still get their passive.
My two bits,
Kizan
This is one reason time pressure of one kind or another is often a good idea. The dungeon should be a dangerous place. The PCs should be afraid to hang out there. The players/PCs should be forced to weigh the consequences of something coming up that tunnel mouth, or of an old ceiling collapsing, or of the place being inundated, or of who knows what happening if they don't get through with the dungeon and get somewhere in time, against the possibility of finding something.