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Treantmonk, in your guide you state that taking the agile maneuver's feat is to increase the wizards CMD. But from what i can tell, the feat only effects CMB, which to me is not worth taking at all. (for a wizard anyway)
In fact, you are already adding your Dexterity to the CMD, you don't really need a feat for that! :)
Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
I am also convinced that Agile Maneuvers is downright useless for a wizard.
Want to use combat maneuvers as a wizard? Enjoy Telekinesis and the wonderful former-Bigby's Hands!
Treantmonk, in your guide you state that taking the agile maneuver's feat is to increase the wizards CMD. But from what i can tell, the feat only effects CMB, which to me is not worth taking at all. (for a wizard anyway)
In fact, you are already adding your Dexterity to the CMD, you don't really need a feat for that! :)
Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
I am also convinced that Agile Maneuvers is downright useless for a wizard.
Want to use combat maneuvers as a wizard? Enjoy Telekinesis and the wonderful former-Bigby's Hands!
I think he meant defensive combat training, it lets use your level, instead of your BAB, to determine you CMD.
Humbly,
Yawar
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I think he meant defensive combat training, it lets use your level, instead of your BAB, to determine you CMD.Humbly,
Yawar
Hi Yawar, defensive combat training is also in the guide, rated green IIRC. But in alternative to that, TM also suggests agile maneuvers (rated orange I believe) which should be dark red instead, in my opinion!
If you could apply your dex twice with the feat, then it would sure be something, but i don't see that anywhere. That is a good thing, because adding double dex to some character's CMD would be ridiculous.
Hi Yawar, defensive combat training is also in the guide, rated green IIRC. But in alternative to that, TM also suggests agile maneuvers (rated orange I believe) which should be dark red instead, in my opinion!
I think he meant defensive combat training, it lets use your level, instead of your BAB, to determine you CMD.Humbly,
Yawar
Sorry, my bad. I should really stop lurking this forums when high on caffeine.
Humbly,
Yawar
Treantmonk, in your guide you state that taking the agile maneuver's feat is to increase the wizards CMD. But from what i can tell, the feat only effects CMB, which to me is not worth taking at all. (for a wizard anyway)
Good call. Corrected.
I am also convinced that Agile Maneuvers is downright useless for a wizard.
Want to use combat maneuvers as a wizard? Enjoy Telekinesis and the wonderful former-Bigby's Hands!
Agreed, I can't see any build taking that Feat.
Hey treant, a number of us in the homebrew section tried to rebalance the universalist to be within a more equal power line with the specialists.
I was wondering if we could get your opinion on it. The current homebrew is as follows, I'll also supply a link to the home thread. Sorry to bother you, and thank you if you choose to aid us.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/communityContent/houseRules/sweetenUniversalistSchoolWizard
Studied Practitioner (Ex): You've long studied a broad variety of magical concepts and the forces that will such power into creation.
At 1st level you may choose six first level spells plus an additional spell known for each point of intelligence modifier, instead of the normal three plus intelligence modifier. Furthermore upon each level of Universalist advancement you acquire a single bonus spell known for each spell level that you can cast.
Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
Universalist's Bond (Ex): At 7th level the Bond that a Universalist Wizard shares is enhanced. You may choose one of the two following options. You may take the Improved Familiar Feat, or alternatively, You gain one extra use of your bonded item to cast any spell you know once per day
Metamagic Mastery (Su): At 8th level, you can apply any one metamagic feat that you know to a spell you are about to cast. This does not alter the level of the spell or the casting time. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level and one additional time per day for every two wizard levels you possess beyond 8th. Any time you use this ability to apply a metamagic feat that increases the spell level by more than 1, you must use an additional daily usage for each level above 1 that the feat adds to the spell. Even though this ability does not modify the spell's actual level, you cannot use this ability to cast a spell whose modified spell level would be above the level of the highest-level spell that you are capable of casting.
So yeah, first level I get 6 + Int Mod spells instead of 3 + Int mod like any other specialist.
Then in addition, instead of two spells known learned at each new level. I'd get three spells known learned.
So it would increase their initial spells known, and then give them extra spells known.
I think perhaps this might be a more balanced upgrade, considering that we are giving the Improved Familiar feat.
Not sure if it has mentioned before, but Mind blank still seems to be handy since the duration is 24h. At higher level, there's always a lot of mind-affecting magic going around and it also stops all forms of scrying including true seeing and see invisibility.
Cast a mindblank in the morning and a greater invisibility during battle and no opponent will see you unless they have tremorsense or something. Most high level monsters and default humanoid enemies with class levels have constant true seeing or see invis. They will NOT see you. Which generally is quite handy.
I would recommend Enchantment and Evocation.
I'll admit I'm lazy and didn't want to read through 10 pages of posts, so I'll just ask:
What are your recommendations for opposing schools if one were to be a conjuration specialist? I didn't notice this in the guide, so if it's in there please point me in the right direction.
OK - follow the arrow:
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Enchantment and Necromancy
How's that for service?
Seriously though, those would be my first two suggestions. Potentially Necromancy could be switched with Evocation painlessly. Abjuration hurts a bit to lose, but isn't a gamebreaker.
Huh. I read the 3.5 guide, like, a year ago or something. Didn't put 2 and 2 together and realize you were the same person until now. Now I'm sad. I really like your guides, and agree with 90-95% of your wizard evaluation, but your contempt for dedicated healers makes me cry. So...why no love? Or, alternately, is there another thread this belongs in, so as not to jack wizardly discussion?
If he was a dedicated Healer you'd have someone to help you. :) Sorry.
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I'll admit I'm lazy and didn't want to read through 10 pages of posts, so I'll just ask:
What are your recommendations for opposing schools if one were to be a conjuration specialist? I didn't notice this in the guide, so if it's in there please point me in the right direction.
OK - follow the arrow:
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VEnchantment and Necromancy
How's that for service?
Seriously though, those would be my first two suggestions. Potentially Necromancy could be switched with Evocation painlessly. Abjuration hurts a bit to lose, but isn't a gamebreaker.
Only 4 minutes to reply? Now that's what i call service!! Thanks TM!
Huh. I read the 3.5 guide, like, a year ago or something. Didn't put 2 and 2 together and realize you were the same person until now. Now I'm sad. I really like your guides, and agree with 90-95% of your wizard evaluation, but your contempt for dedicated healers makes me cry. So...why no love? Or, alternately, is there another thread this belongs in, so as not to jack wizardly discussion?
I don't have a problem with dedicated healing as a concept, but I have no love for dedicated healers in 3.5 or Pathfinder because the mechanics have not been set up to make that kind of character effective.
The problem is that damage done tends to out pace the amount of damage you can heal by a factor of at least 2 to 1.
I'm all for the occasional healing spell in combat when someone is otherwise in danger of dying...but as a dedicated position it is for the birds.
These mechanics may swing more in favor of the healer once "Heal" is in play, but that is pretty late in the game.
Admittedly, I get a lot more out of dedicated healers in mmo's, where you're designed to be able to output a ton of healing in a short time if neccesary; AND in 4th ed, I loved playing a healer, because, well, that combat system IS an mmo, and you CAN bring an entire party back from the brink of death in one rounds actions (and it feels REALLY COOL).
I just finished Dragon Age and found playing a dedicated healer very effective.
If I were to do a Dragon Age wizards handbook, I would highly recommend having healing.
This isn't Dragon age though. What works in 4e or in MMO's is irrelevant.
Damage, *in a battle where it matters*, yes, typically outpaces healing 2:1, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that you need it; slowing damage intake by half can and often does make the difference in the outcome of a battle, and there are times when healing will solve problems that additional DPS simply cannot.
You have created a strawman, and taken it down effectively.
However, I'm getting the sense you either didn't read the handbook, or are ignoring its contents. I'm quite adamant that doing damage is NOT effective as a primary role for a Wizard. There is more than DPS/Healing in play here. You won't find spells in your MMO as effective as Black Tentacles, Wall of Stone, or Silent Image for preventing damage, so the comparison is not particularly useful.
If you want to slow the damage taken, in Pathfinder (and D&D 3.5 and previous), your best bet is to Control the Battlefield, Debuff the Enemy, or Buff your allies.
All 3 methods will reduce the rate of damage taken proactively more effective than dedicated healing does reactively. Usually dramatically so.
Say you're dealing with an opponent who is immune to all of the party's attacks except one guy, have one more DPSer *could*, potentially, give you another guy who could hit him-but more likely, it would have just resulted in one more bored, frightened bystander.
If you have an opponent who is immune to all of the party's attacks except one guy, and your character who is a primary spellcaster is making the decision whether to spend the combat healing or attacking - then you fail at your job.
My choice would be secret option #3: Remove the immunity so the enemy is getting ripped apart, debuff the enemy so his offense is irrelevant, then sit back and munch popcorn. After the battle is done, whomever uses the CLW wands can top everyone back up.
Alternately, if your opponent is a high CR, you can't help the fact that you're going to take more damage than the tank can soak
Yes you can. Only if you aren't wasting your time with cure spells though. The solution is called: "Non-healing spells"
(especially if the tank's a monk *nudge nudge wink wink*), and the additional DPS/control might be enough to slow it down/take the enemy out before the tank drops-and it might not. And the same goes for healing. Again, I'm not championing this role as superior-I just disagree with your derision for it.
A battering Ram may take down a wall, or it may not. An apple thrown really hard may take down a wall, or it may not.
The battering ram is better though. It works much, much, much more often. I'm not going to recommend the apple because maybe it might work OK sometimes. It's the inferior option.
I'm starting to wonder what sort of boss encounters you tend to run into, that you recommend a medium AC monk as a tank, and foregoing a dedicated healer-it would make run-of-the-mill encounters laughably easy, but challenging encounters would be far more deadly.
I recommend a fighter generally for a tank, but if your going to play a Monk, that is the role you are going to do most effectively. That however, is off topic on this thread. If you think a Monk fills another role better, by all means we can have that discussion on my Monk thread.
The great thing about Buff/Debuff/BC, is it often makes those high CR battles laughably easy. When it fails to do that, it at least slows damage output far more than healing would ever do.
Final thoughts:
Pretend for a moment you are in a 2nd level party, and come across a tiger on the path. It is clear it is going to charge. Your party fighter bravely stands in its way. We'll say he's got an AC of 20
The tiger we would expect to hit on about half its 5 attacks, for damage likely around 26 points. That's pretty nasty on a 2nd level character.
Then your "dedicated healer" can cast "cure light wounds" healing the fighter 1d8+2 (maybe 7 points on average). Good job. Fighter is going to die next round.
Of course, if your caster had instead thrown a grease spell in front of the fighter, then the tiger has to make a Ref save as it comes in. Even if the save is made, it has lost the charge and can now do a standard attack, probably doing around 7 points of damage on average. If it fails its save, it does 0, and is now prone for the fighter to hit it at +4 next round. Furthermore, standing will provide another attack of opportunity to the fighter.
Either way, you've likely just won the combat, whether the tiger saves or not.
Your method reduced damage taken by 7 points. My method reduces damage taken by 19 points,o or maybe 26 points.
Ray of Enfeeblement? Probably reduce damage by about 13 points.
Silent Image: Potentially will prevent all 26 points. Will reduce 19 points at a MINIMUM.
Heck - AID ANOTHER (+2 AC) would reduce damage by 6 on average - and a 1st level commoner could do that.
Healing is a bad way to reduce damage taken. It does not heal nearly as much as could be prevented outright by doing something else. It is a reactive way to do battle, and reactive tactics consistently prove less effective than proactive tactics.
Tiger charges:
Honestly Tank is also a poor position.
You want: God, God's Handyman (cleric), striker, batman.
Actually...Let me ask you a question, that I feel may drive straight to the pith of the matter. You despise character types being defended on the grounds of being a good "5th member", a perfectly reasonable stance, but you insist that the stereotypical 4th member, the healer, is a "gimp". So: Tank, Striker, God,...
Who's the ideal FOURTH party member?
Well - the ultimate ideal would be to have a 2nd God (one controls the battlefield or buffs, the second debuffs or summons). Personally, I think Bard makes an excellent 4th party member (mix of GC and Buffing). However, any of the 3 can work. I do like a second spellcaster, so a Cleric or Druid taking a second BSF role can be quite effective.
However, that's the dream. Usually I have at least one person in my group who is playing a waste of space.
Actually, guys, I thing taking offense for being called Gimp, fop or big stupid fighter in a WIZARD guide is weird. Guide is for wizards and it just points out that trying to take these roles is MIGHTY STOOPID in a playful manner.
EDIT: Oh, I'd almost forget... Thanks for a good read Treantmonk. Do you intend to bring more classes into your guides (or editing the other guides to the same level of goodines as the wizard?)?
Actually, guys, I thing taking offense for being called Gimp, fop or big stupid fighter in a WIZARD guide is weird. Guide is for wizards and it just points out that trying to take these roles is MIGHTY STOOPID in a playful manner.
EDIT: Oh, I'd almost forget... Thanks for a good read Treantmonk. Do you intend to bring more classes into your guides (or editing the other guides to the same level of goodines as the wizard?)?
Probably at some point. I've been playing around with some builds over the past week. If I have an eureka moment, it could end up inspiring a guide.
Probably at some point. I've been playing around with some builds over the past week. If I have an eureka moment, it could end up inspiring a guide.Actually, guys, I thing taking offense for being called Gimp, fop or big stupid fighter in a WIZARD guide is weird. Guide is for wizards and it just points out that trying to take these roles is MIGHTY STOOPID in a playful manner.
EDIT: Oh, I'd almost forget... Thanks for a good read Treantmonk. Do you intend to bring more classes into your guides (or editing the other guides to the same level of goodines as the wizard?)?
Hello TreantMonk, I've been perusing your guides and builds for some time now, and would like to express my respect and high regard for your analytical ability, diligence and caustic sense of humour.
On the topic of playing around with builds, I have been thinking about the options available to an Eldritch Knight. Now, I understand that you have little interest in turning a 'god' into a BSF that is neither big, nor a fighter, but do hear me out first.
Some days ago, I ran a brief analysis of some of the options available to Eldritch Knights here:
Go to [url=http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/general/iNeedHelpWithAEldritchKnightBuildAndHelloEveryone&page=2#82[/url].
The exercise got me thinking about whether an Eldritch Knight might ever be a viable prestige class to take up, and whether he would be doomed to take on the role of the party gimp, no matter how carefully you build him. There has been much whingeing going on about how "underpowered" it is, despite Paizo's claims that none of the classes now have "empty levels". However, the monk, ranger and druid in Pathfinder have received significant criticism (albeit often undeservedly) in Pathfinder too, and you seem to have done fine jobs of turning them into effective party members.
It is in my opinion undeniable that in Pathfinder CORE, there aren't enough arcane buffs to even match up to a decently built fighter until really late levels. What that meant for me was that in order for a Eldritch Knight to hold his own in any fight at any level, he would likely need to use his spells to ensure that he never engages in a straight-forward fight. Moreover, the only advantage to picking an Eldritch Knight over a Bard or Dragon Disciple appears to be that it has the best spell progression (I'm rating him above the Bard since he can still potentially reach 9th level arcane spells by level 20).Thus, I reckon that an Eldritch knight would function best as a derivative of your 'god' concept: taking on the role of a "lesser" or secondary 'god', but with several unique options of his own that go beyond simply playing mop-up alongside the glass cannons and BSFs.
Given your experience with analysing both the arcane spells and tactics employed by 'god'-type characters and the various polymorph-type spells from analysing the druid, I was wondering if I might be able to interest you in considering what spells and options might make for a viable Eldritch Knight, what role he might fill, and in light of the above, whether there is any merit to choosing to play this formerly over-hyped archetype that many Pathfinder players now regard with scorn. Since this will essentially be a new guide, I do not wish to clutter this board with EK-related posts. Should you be at all interested in taking on this project, I will be happy to commence a new thread and share my thoughts on the EK thus far.
By-the-by, if anyone can shed some light on how to create a url-link properly, I would be most appreciative. My attempt to do so in my previous post seems to have failed.
Probably at some point. I've been playing around with some builds over the past week. If I have an eureka moment, it could end up inspiring a guide.Actually, guys, I thing taking offense for being called Gimp, fop or big stupid fighter in a WIZARD guide is weird. Guide is for wizards and it just points out that trying to take these roles is MIGHTY STOOPID in a playful manner.
EDIT: Oh, I'd almost forget... Thanks for a good read Treantmonk. Do you intend to bring more classes into your guides (or editing the other guides to the same level of goodines as the wizard?)?
Hello TreantMonk, I've been perusing your guides and builds for some time now, and would like to express my respect and high regard for your analytical ability, diligence and caustic sense of humour.
On the topic of playing around with builds, I have been thinking about the options available to an Eldritch Knight. Now, I understand that you have little interest in turning a 'god' into a BSF that is neither big, nor a fighter, but do hear me out first.
Some days ago, I ran a brief analysis of some of the options available to Eldritch Knights here:
Go to [url=http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/general/iNeedHelpWithAEldritchKnightBuildAndHelloEveryone&page=2#82[/url].
The exercise got me thinking about whether an Eldritch Knight might ever be a viable prestige class to take up, and whether he would be doomed to take on the role of the party gimp, no matter how carefully you build him. There has been much whingeing going on about how "underpowered" it is, despite Paizo's claims that none of the classes now have "empty levels". However, the monk, ranger and druid in Pathfinder have received significant criticism (albeit often undeservedly) in Pathfinder too, and you seem to have done fine jobs of turning them into effective party members.
It is in my opinion undeniable that in Pathfinder CORE, there aren't enough arcane buffs to...
Any class can be made to be viable, but the difficulty of the task depends on what books are allowed, and your level of system mastery. The classes that are weak require a higher level of character building skill than many have, so they are often denounced as bad choices.
...Probably at some point. I've been playing around with some builds over the past week. If I have an eureka moment, it could end up inspiring a guide.Actually, guys, I thing taking offense for being called Gimp, fop or big stupid fighter in a WIZARD guide is weird. Guide is for wizards and it just points out that trying to take these roles is MIGHTY STOOPID in a playful manner.
EDIT: Oh, I'd almost forget... Thanks for a good read Treantmonk. Do you intend to bring more classes into your guides (or editing the other guides to the same level of goodines as the wizard?)?
Hello TreantMonk, I've been perusing your guides and builds for some time now, and would like to express my respect and high regard for your analytical ability, diligence and caustic sense of humour.
On the topic of playing around with builds, I have been thinking about the options available to an Eldritch Knight. Now, I understand that you have little interest in turning a 'god' into a BSF that is neither big, nor a fighter, but do hear me out first.
Some days ago, I ran a brief analysis of some of the options available to Eldritch Knights here:
Go to [url=http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/general/iNeedHelpWithAEldritchKnightBuildAndHelloEveryone&page=2#82[/url].
The exercise got me thinking about whether an Eldritch Knight might ever be a viable prestige class to take up, and whether he would be doomed to take on the role of the party gimp, no matter how carefully you build him. There has been much whingeing going on about how "underpowered" it is, despite Paizo's claims that none of the classes now have "empty levels". However, the monk, ranger and druid in Pathfinder have received significant criticism (albeit often undeservedly) in Pathfinder too, and you seem to have done fine jobs of turning them into effective party members.
It is in my opinion undeniable that in Pathfinder CORE, there aren't
Granted, wraithstrike, and I myself built a ridiculously powerful Eldritch Knights in the last campaign I played in, albeit that I drew on a vast number of source material from WotC.
However, my proposal here involves using only the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
Since TreantMonk professes himself a shameless optimiser (and I respect his capabilities in that regard), I was hoping to turn his mind to this prestige class and seeing what comes of it. If nothing else, it will go some way to quell the many endless debates on the topic. Or, at the very least, I would be interested in his views on my analysis of the viability of the Arcane Strike and Arcane Armour Training/Mastery feats.
By-the-by, if anyone can shed some light on how to create a url-link properly, I would be most appreciative. My attempt to do so in my previous post seems to have failed.
["url=www.sitename.com"] "name you want to name the link" [/url]
PS: Don't use the quotation marks when you do the actual link
By-the-by, if anyone can shed some light on how to create a url-link properly, I would be most appreciative. My attempt to do so in my previous post seems to have failed.["url=www.sitename.com"] "name you want to name the link" [/url]
PS: Don't use the quotation marks when you do the actual link
Seems it's too late for me to edit my original post, but appreciated nonetheless. Cheers mate.
So I am creating a 6th level wizard using your guide. A friend used your ranger guide and swore by it.
I have two race options that I am juggling with... elf or tiefling. My stats (including my 4th Level +1 bump) are:
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 11
Cha 8
Both racial options seem to have their pros and cons so I thought I would have someone else weigh in on it. Thoughts?
I'd go for the tiefling if that's allowed.
Higher constitution, Darkvision and some resistances trump Elven Magic, Low Light Vision and elven immunities.
I'd go for the tiefling if that's allowed.
Higher constitution, Darkvision and some resistances trump Elven Magic, Low Light Vision and elven immunities.
I dunno man, +2 on spell penetration that stacks with spell pen, bonus on identifying magic items and all perception checks? Pretty awesome.
I think you can't go wrong with either choice, but given the decision myself, I would lean towards the tiefling:
1) I'll take a Cha penalty over a Con penalty anyday.
2) Darkvision + Darkness is a decent combo
3) The energy resistances will be nice at lower levels
Elf gets some nice stuff too, but I would say a bit less nice.
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Actually, guys, I thing taking offense for being called Gimp, fop or big stupid fighter in a WIZARD guide is weird. Guide is for wizards and it just points out that trying to take these roles is MIGHTY STOOPID in a playful manner.
I don't know... I'm taking offense to people using the words "tank" and "striker" in a wizard guide. Of course, that's mostly because I despise everything that's remotely related to the money-whoring WotC products of late.
Actually, guys, I thing taking offense for being called Gimp, fop or big stupid fighter in a WIZARD guide is weird. Guide is for wizards and it just points out that trying to take these roles is MIGHTY STOOPID in a playful manner.I don't know... I'm taking offense to people using the words "tank" and "striker" in a wizard guide. Of course, that's mostly because I despise everything that's remotely related to the money-whoring WotC products of late.
That's a pretty bizarre and irrational depth to take it, man.
You...you might wanna see someone professionally about that.
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That's a pretty bizarre and irrational depth to take it, man.
You...you might wanna see someone professionally about that.
I do. I see Paizo professionally!
Did you say the same thing in your history class when you learned about the American Revolution and how it started over taxation without representation? I mean, if you think about it it's really the same thing minus the bloodshed, the red makeup-wearing pilgrims with a tea fetish, and the part about being forced to pay the tax.
EDIT: Sorry for the thread-jack, Treant. Love the guides!
That's a pretty bizarre and irrational depth to take it, man.
You...you might wanna see someone professionally about that.
I do. I see Paizo professionally!
Did you say the same thing in your history class when you learned about the American Revolution and how it started over taxation without representation? I mean, if you think about it it's really the same thing minus the bloodshed, the red makeup-wearing pilgrims with a tea fetish, and the part about being forced to pay the tax.
EDIT: Sorry for the thread-jack, Treant. Love the guides!
...Comparing this to an actual war where people died is not making you look any better, man.
Also, the tone of the wizard guide is precisely what makes it my favorite - in no small part because I play almost all my wizards this way :D. High int and low charisma, baby!
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...Comparing this to an actual war where people died is not making you look any better, man.
You assume too much when you believe that I care about how I "look". I tell it like I see it, and in my mind a deathless revolution is exactly what happened when Paizo decided to produce Pathfinder. Unfortunately they are still making money off their pathetic excuse for a game.
Also, the tone of the wizard guide is precisely what makes it my favorite - in no small part because I play almost all my wizards this way :D. High int and low charisma, baby!
This had nothing to do with the guide. It's obviously a great guide (that's why we're all reading the thread) and I don't believe anyone's ever questioned that.
i think if treantmonk is to do a EK guide -it would be worth doing a paragraph or 2 on effective use of actions- ie rd 1 cast a swift (non-somatic buff) and another non-somatic spell (displacement)
rd2 full attack w/arcane strike etc.
maanaging your swift actions is key. If you spell crit use a non-somatic offensive spell.
From experience, it will vary ALOT depending on the situation, and you will need to adjust your tactics according to what you are presented with.
If you want advice on how an Eldritch Knight should use his swift actions, try referring to my post here .
Generally, I feel that bracers of armour trump arcane armour training, and that arcane strike is ok, but becomes quite redundant once you get your capstone ability. At that point, assuming you use a scimitar, rapier or falchion with the keen property, you are almost always better off relying on the 30% chance to get a free quickened spell, especially since you should have high level spells to sling around (that is one of the reasons you play an Eldritch Knight over a Dragon Disciple), and at that level you should be polymorphing into either a dragon, giant or elemental to fight (incidentally if you go with elemental, you will likely need to rely on stilled spells since elementals can clearly speak, but it is questionable if they can make arcane gestures). It could still be handy in mook fights if you want to save spells, but a feat relegated to use in mook fights is hardly a good choice.
If your DM allows swift spells from any of the WotC sources, go with that. If he allows the 3.5 version of Arcane Strike, all the better. But personally, I'd skip the Pathfinder Arcane Strike and Arcane Armour training feats.
Hmmm...I wonder if TreantMonk read my earlier post about doing an Eldritch Knight guide. Oh and we should probably not discuss EKs too much here, lest we end up jacking the thread. XD
Actually, I don't know if this is correct by RAW- but spell crit apprears to be instantaneous (free action?) on the crit and so may not be subject to arcane spell failiure as it happens as part of the strike?
In which case you could full attack with arcane strike on and not worry about ASF for spell crit.
So...
Always arcane strike with a full attack
and if you need to cast, use arcane armour training then move.
or if u swift spell, then spell again with a displacement or irresitable dance etc.Of course your AC doesn't suffer if u take arcane armour mastery since you could wear mithral fullplate with only 5% spl fail (rolling a 1)
Can start with dex of 10, wear a belt of perfection 6 for a total ac maxoutI prefer arcane armour training only, mithral Breastplate has 5% but with a starting dex of 14 can max the dex with the same belt.
With Dex 14 breastplate(+5), amulet(+5), belt6(+3mod), ring(+5) all maxed AC =36 (37 w/dodge)
Wtih Dex 10 fullplate (+5), amulet(+5), belt6(+3mod), ring(+5) all maxed 37 (38 w/dodge)
These are pretty respectable AC's and need to be factor's for armoured caster's (go the 14 dex if you can afford it, uses 1 less feat works earlier)
throw a 50% miss on top and EK's have defences worth tanking with.
Cheers.
Sorry, Arden, but this is what the ability description reads as:
"Spell Critical (Su): At 10th level, whenever an
eldritch knight successfully confirms a critical
hit, he can cast a spell as a swift action. The spell
must include the target of the attack as one of its targets
or in its area of effect. Casting this spell does not provoke
an attack of opportunity. The caster must still meet all
of the spell’s components and must roll for arcane spell
failure if necessary."
If it was a free action, I would certainly recommend Arcane Strike for any Eldritch Knight. As it is, I would probably recommend it for Dragon Disciples and Arcane Archers, but not Eldritch Knights who reckon they will get to see their capstone ability for more than a few sessions. It will help at the lower levels, but once you get spell critical, Arcane Strike gets left in the dust.
Hmmm...I wonder if TreantMonk read my earlier post about doing an Eldritch Knight guide. Oh and we should probably not discuss EKs too much...
actually, you're right maybe we can start an EK tips and tricks quide?
tips for AC
Tanking
Full attacking (feat uses)
What spells to take.Hell if we get a few contributors we must have enough feedback for our own guide (though I certainly aren't as good a guide writer as treantmonk)....
Rather interestingly, I've started thinking more about the PF Eldritch Knight since responding to that post I linked earlier. I would not mind contributing to a guide, and would certainly comment on any guides that come up.
Things to consider would be:
Reasons for choosing Eldritch Knight over its foremost competitors, Dragon Disciple and Arcane Archer. There are only 3 possible answers I can think of: quicker spell progression, fighter-only feats and spell-critical. Since the latter does not come into play till the late stages of a campaign, you're best of with one of the first 2 answers-future use of spell-critical is something to keep an eye on, but probably not focus on. Also, this will give you a focus when considering the subsequent options.
Lead-ins: since you will likely want to go into the PRC by level 7 at the latest (having nabbed 1 level in a warrior class and 5 or 6 levels in a caster class), we will want to run a comparison of the abilities available to wizard specialists and sorcerers of various bloodlines up to level 6. Off the top of my head, I would reckon that fey sorcerers and transmuters are good contenders.
Feats/Fighter shtick: one of the strengths of the class is its ability to access fighter-only feats. However, you will likely only have enough feats to do 1 shtick properly, 2 at the most. I'd say disruptive, criticals and spring attacks+vital strike are fore-runners. I almost said archery, but reconsidered: your tiny threat-range and high number of attacks will make waiting on spell-critical an inferior choice to a more reliable arcane-strike spam, and you're better-off leaving that shtick to the arcane archer. I'd mention criticals again because they are not only a nifty shtick in their own right, but synergise best with your capstone ability.
Spell selection: this will actually influence your fighter shtick choice because you will want to consider whether or not to use the polymorph spells. For instance, a stegosaurus is made for vital strike, with his 4d6 damage tail attack. However, if you think that you'd eventually want to swing your falchion as a giant (and you may well want to if you want to spell-crit), then you'd probably want to look at weapon specialisation and crit-feats instead.
Apart from that, we'd probably be best referring to TreantMonk's 'god'-guide for the best defensive spells. Spells like mirror image should continue to be staples. However, certain spells will need to be re-evaluated. For instance, improved invisibility becomes alot more useful (or blacklight from the Golarion Campaign Setting book) for a combination of defence and offence. Vampiric touch becomes a much more viable spell too, providing a hp buffer for you whilst you're in combat (although you might want to deliver those through spell-storing weapons to avoid the concentration check).
Specific strategies: this is more for flavour. Are there any situations that an Eldritch Knight can create where he enjoys an absolute advantage over a straight fighter or arcane caster?
For instance, a high-level Eldritch Knight can dimension door next to an enemy arcane caster and use contingency to pop a resilient sphere on himself-a 15ft diameter would catch both himself and the enemy arcane caster in a force sphere with no concentration check and no save (15ft diameter with you in the middle 5ft square means he can't 5ft step away from you). If your party's 'god' could pop a dimensional anchor on him beforehand (or you are able to quicken one yourself), then he is a mage locked in melee with a sub-optimal fighter with nowhere to run. If you also took the disruptive feat (which is usually reserved for fighters), then he is well and truly boned. Of course, you could take the fighter with you, but then who would defend your 'god'?
Gear: Again, this will be influenced by your fighter shtick and spell selection. Bracers of armour or celestial armour? Amulet of mighty blows or keen scimitar? You may also want to focus on caster-stat boosters and caster-level boosters since these improve your concentration checks.
Yeah, was away from books (posted that on a phone), looks like w'll have to stick to using irresitable dance on the crit....
Sorry, Arden, but this is what the ability description reads as:"Spell Critical (Su): At 10th level, whenever an
eldritch knight successfully confirms a critical
hit, he can cast a spell as a swift action. The spell
must include the target of the attack as one of its targets
or in its area of effect. Casting this spell does not provoke
an attack of opportunity. The caster must still meet all
of the spell’s components and must roll for arcane spell
failure if necessary."If it was a free action, I would certainly recommend Arcane Strike for any Eldritch Knight. As it is, I would probably recommend it for Dragon Disciples and Arcane Archers, but not Eldritch Knights who reckon they will get to see their...
Maybe not necessarily. I've been playing around with some builds/options, as well as taking a second look at some of the polymorph options, and am starting to think that those feats may not be all that redundant after all.
Arcane archer is probably king of the roost for ranged combat warrior/mage-types. Assuming Eldritch Knights and Dragon Disciples are built for melee, and assuming for the moment that the Dragon Disciple's advancement in bloodline abilities evens out (very roughly) with the Eldritch Knight's improved spell advancement rate (more spells known and special abilities vs higher caster level and higher level spells), what you have is basically better access to combat (and fighter-specific) feats and BAB vs stat boosts and higher hp/AC.
[Edit: after considering the requirements, I've realised that the Eldritch Knight is not even that far ahead in caster progression: the Eldritch Knight loses 2-when he takes his warrior level, and another at the first level of the prestige class, Moreover, whilst the Eldritch Knight gets 3 combat feats, the Dragon Disciple still gets his +3 bloodline feats too, and I count at least 4 prime options for a warrior-mage. Seems at this point that the Eldritch Knight is losing out.]
With the melee warrior/mage, your options are to go with weapons, or polymorph and special attacks. Personally, I would think that due to the way extra attacks from natural weapons work, you will probably get more mileage out of the Dragon Disciple's stat bonuses and special abilities if you go with beast/dragon forms. That is, I think that the Dragon Disciple is better suited for taking advantage of the polymorph line of spells. And particularly since many of the good beast forms can't cast spells, arcane strike becomes a strong choice. Think dire tiger, with pounce and rake: 3 attacks on a full attack, FIVE attacks on a charge, and grappling advantages. Since full attacks are not always available, your damage in-game may well outstrip even a carefully-built fighter by virtue of your pounce.
In contrast, as an Eldritch Knight, working with 3 extra feats and pseudo-fighter levels, your comparative advantage lies in fighter-shticks. Since your capstone ability works of criticals, it would appear to me that the best way to go would be to focus on critical feats (pun not intended), which favours the use of high crit-range weapons rather than natural attacks.
I realise that this analysis suffers from a pitfall in that it fails to take into account entry requirements. Thus, my next project will be to run a more detailed comparison between the 2 classes at levels 5, 10 and 15.
Dammit, with TreantMonk being as silent as he is on whether he will take me up on writing an Eldritch Knight guide, it seems, I may well end up doing enough to make my own before he replies...I'm already at the brink of moving beyong the idle-theorising to actual hard analysis stage.
[Edit: Sadly, the more I look at the concrete advantages gained by the Dragon Disciple, the more I feel that the Eldritch Knight truly does lose out-he can certainly come into his own through the use of combat feats, but his damage will probably never be able to rival that of a Dragon Disciple in melee combat or a arcane archer in ranged combat. That being said, he may be able to find a niche in being superior to the DD in ranged combat and superior to the AA in melee and spellcasting. That is, it truly does seem that even in the melee/archery department, the Eldritch Knight sacrifices sheer effectiveness for versatility. I DO see some potential for choosing an Eldritch Knight over an Arcane Archer for archery since the Arcane Archer needs to make a more pronounced decision regarding sacrificing BAB or caster levels to qualify for the prestige class. However, if you're interested in polymorphing into a dire tiger or dragon to maul your enemies to shreds (and this is IMO the best way for a warrior-mage to do melee), then Dragon Disciple is the best way to go by probably a significant margin.]
Dammit, with TreantMonk being as silent as he is on whether he will take me up on writing an Eldritch Knight guide, it seems, I may well end up doing enough to make my own before he replies...I'm already at the brink of moving beyong the idle-theorising to actual hard analysis stage.......I look at the concrete advantages gained by the Dragon Disciple, the more I feel that the Eldritch Knight truly does lose out
does this mean you will be write up a DD guide?