I was asked by someone to post my warmage conversion for my game. Here it is. Take it or leave it as you like. :)
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Class Skills
The warmage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points: 2 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All the following are class features of the warmage.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Unchanged.
Spells: Unchanged
Bloodline: As a sorcerer, a warmage has a source of magic somewhere in his heritage that grants him spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family’s past. For example, a sorcerer might have a dragon as a distant relative or his grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil. Regardless of the source, this influence manifests in a number of ways as the warmage gains levels. A warmage must pick one bloodline upon taking his first level of warmage. Once made, this choice cannot be changed. Additionally, the warmage's intense and focused training means he only gains limited benefit from his bloodline. He must choose, at first level, whether to gain spells, feats, or powers from his bloodline.
Spells: At 3rd level, and every two levels there-after, a warmage learns an additional spell, derived from his bloodline. These spells are in addition to the warmage spells he already knows. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.
Feats: At 7th level, and every six levels thereafter, a warmage receives one bonus feat, chosen from a list specific to each bloodline. The warmage must meet the prerequisites for these bonus feats.
Powers: At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, the warmage gains a bloodline power, per his bloodline.
If a warmage also takes levels in Sorcerer, he has the same bloodline for both classes, and may add his warmage levels to his sorcerer levels for purposes of gaining bloodline powers and feats. If he chose spells for his warmage, he gains his bloodline spells separately, and applied to both classes.
Cantrips: Warmage’s learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted below under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
Armored Mage (Ex): Unchanged
Warmage Edge (Ex): Unchanged
Advanced Learning (Ex): Unchanged
Sudden Empower: Unchanged
Sudden Enlarge: Unchanged
Sudden Widen: Unchanged
Sudden Maximize: Unchanged
Warmage's Spell List
0 level: acid splash, disrupt undead, electric jolt, light, ray of frost, sonic snap
1st level: accuracy, burning hands, chill touch, first of stone, hail of stone, ice dagger, light of lunia, magic missile, lesser orb of acid, lesser orb of cold, lesser orb of electricity, lesser orb of fire, lesser orb of sound, shocking grasp, true strike
2nd level: blades of fire, blast of force, combust, continual flame, electric loop, fire trap, fireburst, flame dagger, flaming sphere, frost breath, ice knife, light of mercuria, melf's acid arrow, pyrotechnics, ray of ice, scorch, scorching ray, shatter, snowball swarm, whirling blade
3rd level: acid breath, fire shield, fireball, flame arrow, gust of wind, hailstones, ice storm, icelance, light of venya, lightning bolt, poison, rainbow blast, resonating bolt, ring of blades, scintillating sphere, sleet storm, sound lance, stinking cloud
4th level: blast of flame, contagion, energy spheres, evard's black tentacles, force missiles, orb of acid, orb of cold, orb of electricity, orb of fire, orb of force, orb of sound, phantasmal killer, shout, wall of fire
5th level: arc of lightning, ball lightning, cacophonic burst, cloudkill, cone of cold, cyclonic blast, mass fire shield, firebrand, greater fireburst, flame strike, prismatic ray, vitriolic sphere
6th level: acid fog, acid storm, blade barrier, chain lightning, circle of death, disintegrate, fire seeds, freezing fog, otiluke's freezing sphere, tenser's transformation
7th level: delayed blast fireball, earthquake, emerald flame fist, finger of death, fire storm, ice claw, mordenkainen's sword, prismatic eye, prismatic spray, radiant assault, sunbeam, waves of exhaustion
8th level: field of icy razors, horrid wilting, incendiary cloud, lightning ring, polar ray, prismatic wall, scintillating pattern, greater shout, sunburst
9th level: black blade of disaster, elemental swarm, implosion, meteor swarm, prismatic sphere, sphere of ultimate destruction, wail of the banshee, weird
EDIT: Oh, no change to hit dice. Thought about adding in the Toughness feat at first level to keep the flavor of a combat capable mage. That would give them an average of 1hp per level more than a sorcerer (like they had before), but then I'm adding in a bunch of stuff up front. Preloading I believe it's called. :) I did adjust the spells per day to match a sorcerer's, it was almost the same except at 20th level, I fixed that.
Neat, but I really dislike the idea of giving them the Sorcerer bloodlines. I play a 3.5 Warmage in another game, and I can't see it as being very much in line with the class concept.
My Warmage likes to talk about his "Advanced Associates" degree from the Cormyr College of Applied Evocation. He thinks it a really big deal, and routinely talks down to other Wizards (especially specialist Evokers), despite the fact they all know he's just a hack.
I think most of the class is good, as is, but I would like to see the BAB and HD go up (to Cleric). This will put the Warmage in more combat situations, with his spells to back him up if things get too hairy.
Honestly that was the other option we talked about. We went with the idea that a warmage was a 3.5 sorcerer who'd had his magic beaten into him, which is why we gave him the bloodline. We just figured the bloodline would have been neglected due to his intense (and painful) teachings.
A boost to 3/4 and d8 wouldn't be outrageous either honestly. Maybe as an alternate build to the above, but lose all your bloodline abilities (but you still have to pick one). I like the idea of a warmage being a sorcerer that has had his spells beaten into him. ;) So that way if he ever multiclasses his bloodline is picked ahead of time. Maybe only give the bloodline arcana to the warmage if he's taken the Battle Build (3/4 BAB and d8).
Very close to my own version, so good hehe.
Also, upping it´s BAB HD to cleric lvl does not make him too powerfull, in fact it allows him to be a decent melee aid on top of a great blaster.PS Cha based warmage edge is almost a must.
LOL, glad you like. :)
I disagree on the Cha based warmage edge. I like it being Int, it encourages INT to not be a dump stat. I really like that. A warmage spent time in a college, he should have a high int.
Fair enought, matter of taste I guess. May I suggest then a damage increase like the one from the evoker (half your warmage lvl).
Gime him a little ohmpf
I think the warmage edge gives a decent damage boost as is. I do like the above idea of making him an int based caster instead of Cha, I might make that change.
I think the warmage edge gives a decent damage boost as is. I do like the above idea of making him an int based caster instead of Cha, I might make that change.Aside from eroding the mechanic of spont casters being CHA based, having an INT Warmage would be very nice.
And as for bloodlines, I think only Arcane and Destined are in any way appropriate. Maybe have the option of having one of these bloodlines or the better BAB and HD. Did you take electives in Arcane Theory or Introductory Combat Maneuvers?
Don't know, I could see the elemental or infernal or celestial bloodlines also working well as well.
Don't know, I could see the elemental or infernal or celestial bloodlines also working well as well.Work, yes. Retain flavor, not really. In those cases, power really IS just flowing out from them. Sorcerer is the obvious outlet for them.
And Elemental or Draconic would be somewhat unbalanced.
Destined and Arcane are written like the others, but it is far less obvious that the magic is being powered by otherworldly/inhuman connections. They could go sorcerer, but if they studied, they could also focus all that into being a warmage.
IMHO, FWIW.
I guess it depends on your idea of what a warmage is. I've always had the vision of a warmage being a proto-sorcerer who was identified as a sorcerer before their power awakened, and then they were put into a horribly intense and restrictive and physically exhaustive training regime. The sort of thing that they start at 12 or so and work you 10 hours a day until you are 18 and graduate as a 1st level sorcerer, with all your spells drilled into your brain through years of practicing, even when your power level isn't even active, much less up to casting them.
Beguiler, Duskblade.....Never used them, so don't know ^__^
Most of the spont casters use CHA, so it still would be an erosion (a previously CHA spont caster now using INT).
And yet some prepared casters use CHA (paladin).
I've seen a whole bunch of warmage conversion ideas on these boards, I think its interesting that there have been alot of attempts to convert what most considered a sub par 3.5 class. Personally I think the warmage needs more of a boost then the sorceror, not less. In 3.5 the warmage was almost exclusively outclassed by the other primary casters. Part of a bloodline isnt going to make up for this, especially when the bloodline abilities wont mesh overly well with the existing warmage abilities.
Personally I came up with 2 ideas for the warmage. The simpler and lower power Idea was to 'add' the evoker specialist abilities to the warmage. Edge becomes int+1/2 level, and they get the force missile ability at level 1 and elemental wall at level 9. As well as cantrips ofcourse and possible eschew materials.
The second idea and the one my group is ultimately using is based off of a conversion that was posted by smilodan a while back. Though I toned it down a bit, I really liked his arcane combat manuever idea. As well as trying to give the warmage a real capstone ability if possible. But it is in some ways a signficant departure from the 3.5 warmage so its more of a half reimagining half conversion.
I wrote up a nice two page post on how I disagree'd that the warmage was a weak class, I always found it to be one of the stronger classes in the splat books, but the stupid board ate my post, so I'll just post this instead. :(
I've seen a whole bunch of warmage conversion ideas on these boards, I think its interesting that there have been alot of attempts to convert what most considered a sub par 3.5 class. Personally I think the warmage needs more of a boost then the sorceror, not less. In 3.5 the warmage was almost exclusively outclassed by the other primary casters. Part of a bloodline isnt going to make up for this, especially when the bloodline abilities wont mesh overly well with the existing warmage abilities.All depends how you use your Warmage. As a primary caster, they leave much to be desired. As a primary damage-dealer, they can easily rock.
A Cleric, Wiz, Rogue, Warmage party is a bit magic heavy, but can still meet many of the CR's any other 4-party groups can.
Which is why, IMO, we should move the Warmage more towards being a combatant by boosting the BAB and HD. And looking back, while I still feel RP-wise that the bloodlines should be limited, there is little mechanical reason to do so. It's not really too overpowered, even with the Dragon bloodline, and you still want to take a sorcerer if you ever want to cast a utility spell.
Changing Edge to the Evoker power is ok, but there are still a large number of conjuration spells on the Warmage list, so it would either be strictly better or worse. Assuming it applies to everything, it would de-emphasize the MAD for the Warmage, while better BAB and HD tempts the player to actually increase the MAD, so different concepts could be explored.
As for a capstone ability, the Bloodlines pretty much accomplish this (that and 9th level spells).
Oh when i said add evoker power to edge i meant for all warmage damage spells not just evocation.
As far as warmage effectiveness I guess it depends on what you are comparing it to, but no matter what you compare it to the 3.5 warmage fell flat in my opinion. If you compare it to non-magical classes, like the barbarian or rogue in terms of damage dealing, the warmage would edge out a little in damage, but it wouldnt be able to take the hits a barbarian could take, and wouldnt have the skills a rogue would have.
If you compare it to casters, there is no comparison between say greater acid orb and enervation. Or between burning hands and 3.5 ray of enfeeblement. Or Scorching ray and ray of stupidity (which can 1shot magical beasts and animals, cripple casters, and 2 shot most lower int creatures like orcs and goblins). And that leaves out win buttons like sleep, grease, glitterdust, and a whole bunch of others.
Im not saying warmage isnt worth playing it I did play a 3.5 warmage and loved it, but it got a little boring after a while, and I think adding something to make it more interesting is a good idea.
The more we talk back and forth, the more I'm leaning towards rewriting my conversion to be either :
Arcane Concentration : Full Sorcerer Bloodline
OR
Fighter Concentration : No Bloodline bonuses (still pick one, in case of future multiclassing), 3/4 BAB and d8 hit die.
Chosen at first level.
The more we talk back and forth, the more I'm leaning towards rewriting my conversion to be either :
Arcane Concentration : Full Sorcerer Bloodline
OR
Fighter Concentration : No Bloodline bonuses (still pick one, in case of future multiclassing), 3/4 BAB and d8 hit die.
Chosen at first level.
Perhaps being able to choose? Im always in favor of more choice in the base classes instead of prestige classes.
Just out of curiosity, what are you going to do with the bonus spells in the bloodlines that are already in the warmage list? Would the warmage not be able to benefit at that level from the bonus spell? The elemental and Infernal bloodlines would have this problem I believe.
The more we talk back and forth, the more I'm leaning towards rewriting my conversion to be either :
Arcane Concentration : Full Sorcerer Bloodline
OR
Fighter Concentration : No Bloodline bonuses (still pick one, in case of future multiclassing), 3/4 BAB and d8 hit die.
Chosen at first level.
Perhaps being able to choose? Im always in favor of more choice in the base classes instead of prestige classes.
Just out of curiosity, what are you going to do with the bonus spells in the bloodlines that are already in the warmage list? Would the warmage not be able to benefit at that level from the bonus spell? The elemental and Infernal bloodlines would have this problem I believe.
See bolded above, the idea was allowing a choice at 1st level.
As to duplicate spells... they are just duplicate spells, I think. The other bloodline powers are very useful, so if you are going that way, it's not a huge thing to not gain a spell at that level.
If I did anything, I might allow them to take an 'Extra Learning' at any level where their bloodline duplicated a known spell. Have to think it over.
Perhaps being able to choose? Im always in favor of more choice in the base classes instead of prestige classes.
Just out of curiosity, what are you going to do with the bonus spells in the bloodlines that are already in the warmage list? Would the warmage not be able to benefit at that level from the bonus spell? The elemental and Infernal bloodlines would have this problem I believe.
See bolded above, the idea was allowing a choice at 1st level.
As to duplicate spells... they are just duplicate spells, I think. The other bloodline powers are very useful, so if you are going that way, it's not a huge thing to not gain a spell at that level.
If I did anything, I might allow them to take an 'Extra Learning' at any level where their bloodline duplicated a known spell. Have to think it over.
oops I missed that line, my mistake.
As for the duplicate spells I personally think especially for the warmage the bonus spells are their best gain from the bloodline. Perhaps just replacing them in the list yourself? Its only 4 spells total that need to be worried about, probably easier to just do it yourself (in my opinion).
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Unfortunately, I think that this warmage conversion is way too underpowered. It is weaker than the current evoker specialist wizard, who can actually do everything this guy can do and do more damage, have more utility, equal AC, etc at a cost of 4 feats by 7th level. In my opinion, this class needs a serious overhaul because there is too much overlap with the wizard, and the flavor of this class is probably best suited for a prestige class anyway.
You have to remember that Pathfinder characters are actually more powerful than their 3.5 counterparts, and are better balanced. There are some weird problems with this class.
For instance, did you know this about the 3.5 warmage?
He can wear Mithral Full Plate, but can't use a heavy mithral shield?
He is a Charisma character but only gets one class skill using Charisma (Intimidate) which is effectively useless for this character in 3.5 rules?
He is a graduate of a war college but he apparently failed his class on setting DCs because his Charisma sets DCs. In return he gets Int bonus as a damage bonus. Why do you split two ability scores for spellcasting when you need strength to wear armor, you want Con to be a combat character etc. It waters down the character as an unnecessary balancing factor.
I DMed a campaign where my wife played a warmage. Don't get me wrong, she loved it for its simplicity, but the character had some decided weaknesses. Oddly, in the party, the Sorceror had more utility and practically the same offensive output. The class basically turned into an evoker Sorceror but most of the spells were already picked out for you.
I have some interesting ideas about how to reinvent the Warmage as a Pathfinder character or prestige class. I'd be willing to take a serious shot at either if someone wants me to put together a package.
I disagree on the Cha based warmage edge. I like it being Int, it encourages INT to not be a dump stat. I really like that. A warmage spent time in a college, he should have a high int.
I played like 3 warmages over various campaigns, the problems I ran across was this was a 3 stat class: CHA, INT and DEX.
They are a CHA based caster, the edge was INT based and they threw a lot of ranged touch spells using DEX plus DEX for AC. That's a lot of stats to try and fill up over time for various reasons. Especially at start up.
I always thought when it was released that the spell basing stat and the edge stat should be the same.
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I disagree on the Cha based warmage edge. I like it being Int, it encourages INT to not be a dump stat. I really like that. A warmage spent time in a college, he should have a high int.I played like 3 warmages over various campaigns, the problems I ran across was this was a 3 stat class: CHA, INT and DEX.
They are a CHA based caster, the edge was INT based and they threw a lot of ranged touch spells using DEX plus DEX for AC. That's a lot of stats to try and fill up over time for various reasons. Especially at start up.
I always thought when it was released that the spell basing stat and the edge stat should be the same.
Thank you for reminding me--that's right, it really was a 3 stat class, not mentioning that you'd actually like some CON too. Even the other person that commented said 16 Dex was his sweet spot.
I don't like when they try to balance classes by making it difficult to build a good character without rolling (e.g. using point buy).
Honestly, Extra Edge was a better investment than more INT, CHA was overrated when Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, and all the various Orb spells provided direct damage with no saves, and DEX would be capped by armor.
I was constantly throwing the orb spells which had no save, but had a ranged touch. So with a lower BAB, I needed the extra push there and some AC wherever I could (mithral chain shirt wearer).
Thank you for reminding me--that's right, it really was a 3 stat class, not mentioning that you'd actually like some CON too. Even the other person that commented said 16 Dex was his sweet spot.
I don't like when they try to balance classes by making it difficult to build a good character without rolling (e.g. using point buy).
Yeah, I forgot CON in there. HP was a must because you got made into a target quickly.
I'd find a DEX somewhere around 20 was my sweet spot. My armor would be working with the DEX, I could hit most above average touch ACs. But getting there even rolling and lucky dice along with CHA, CON and INT was a huge pain.
Thank you for reminding me--that's right, it really was a 3 stat class, not mentioning that you'd actually like some CON too. Even the other person that commented said 16 Dex was his sweet spot.
I don't like when they try to balance classes by making it difficult to build a good character without rolling (e.g. using point buy).
Yeah, I forgot CON in there. HP was a must because you got made into a target quickly.
I'd find a DEX somewhere around 20 was my sweet spot. My armor would be working with the DEX, I could hit most above average touch ACs. But getting there even rolling and lucky dice along with CHA, CON and INT was a huge pain.
I honestly mostly made my dex the dump stat. I always took the Battlecaster feat at 1st or 3rd level, so I could start out in medium and go up to Heavy at 8th. Then I'd let my armor do my work. With ranged touch attacks, I never had a problem hitting the enemies touch ac's. Plus, I liked area of effect. My go to spell though was ring of blades. :) I love love that spell.
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Ok, after reading through everything, here's the latest version of my warmage conversion. If you don't like it, that's fine. :)
I do. :) Changes from the first post are in blue, and I didn't list anything that didn't change from the first post.
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Abilities: determines how powerful a spell a warmage can cast, how many spells a warmage can cast per day, and how hard those spells are to resist (see Spells, below). A armage’s Intelligence bonus is added to damage dealt by spells through his warmage edge ability. Like a sorcerer or wizard, a warmage benefits from high Dexterity and Constitution scores.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d6 .
Abbreviation: Wmg
Starting Gold: 5d4 x 10 gp.
Spells: A warmage casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the warmage spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list. Warmages also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below). See below for the warmage’s spell list.
To cast a spell, a warmage must have score of 10 + the spell’s level ( 10 for 0-level spells, 11 for 1st level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a warmage’s spell is 10 + the spell’s level + the warmage’s modifier. Like other spellcasters, a warmage can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on The Warmage table. In addition, he receives bonus spells for a high score.
Unlike a cleric or a wizard, a warmage need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level.
Bloodline:
Armored Mage (Ex): Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster’s gestures, which can cause his spells to fail (if those spells have somatic components). A warmage’s limited focus and specialized training, however, allows him to avoid arcane spell failure as long as he sticks to light armor and light shields. This training does not extend to medium or heavier armors, nor to heavy shields. Nor does this ability apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class.
At 8th level, a warmage learns to use medium armor with no chance of arcane spell failure.
Ok, after reading through everything, here's the latest version of my warmage conversion. If you don't like it, that's fine. :)
I do. :) Changes from the first post are in blue, and I didn't list anything that didn't change from the first post.
I think the arcane focused warmage will compare about as well as it did in 3.5, i thought it was on the weak side, but since it worked for you this should also.
I like the idea of the Martial Focused warmage. I think they would make very good Eldritch knights, especially with a descent strength score and fist of stone.
So warmage edge is gone?????
And instead of HD increase just making it one extra HP every warmage lvl would make it a bit more elegant and have the same result proportionally.
He said he didnt include the stuff that was unchanged, warmage edge is there in his initial post, so I imagine its there for both Arcane and Martial Focus. And the HD bump doesnt just impact hit points since it also bumps the BAB, those two are supposed to be tied together now.
I am tempted to go Medium BAB and D8 and call em done
So warmage edge is gone?????
And instead of HD increase just making it one extra HP every warmage lvl would make it a bit more elegant and have the same result proportionally.No, he just didn't post stuff that wasn't changing from the first post.
And the HD change keeps the class on par with the BAB change for the martial option (PFRPG standard that 1/2 BAB = d6, 3/4 = d8, etc.)
This keeps everything even with the other base classes.
Yeah, what MM said. ;)
He said he didnt include the stuff that was unchanged, warmage edge is there in his initial post, so I imagine its there for both Arcane and Martial Focus. And the HD bump doesnt just impact hit points since it also bumps the BAB, those two are supposed to be tied together now.So warmage edge is gone?????
And instead of HD increase just making it one extra HP every warmage lvl would make it a bit more elegant and have the same result proportionally.
Yep, there for both. The only thing that changes by focus is BAB/HD vs Bloodline Benefits. Both options still have a bloodline, and both gain the bloodline arcana and class skill.
Ok, after reading through everything, here's the latest version of my warmage conversion. If you don't like it, that's fine. :)
I do. :) Changes from the first post are in blue, and I didn't list anything that didn't change from the first post.
I think the arcane focused warmage will compare about as well as it did in 3.5, i thought it was on the weak side, but since it worked for you this should also.
I like the idea of the Martial Focused warmage. I think they would make very good Eldritch knights, especially with a descent strength score and fist of stone.
I think changing it to Int based instead of Cha based better fits the flavor too, and also tightens it up a bit. And yes, the martial focus would be an ideal eldritch knight entry, especially since you don't lose a bloodline path for doing it.
I like ^__^
Thanks
Just out of curiosity would you allow the ecclectic learning feature from I think complete mage (maybe phb2?) Where a warmage could learn an non-evocation sorceror/wizard spell at 1 higher spell level then normal in place of the standard advanced learning?
Just out of curiosity would you allow the ecclectic learning feature from I think complete mage (maybe phb2?) Where a warmage could learn an non-evocation sorceror/wizard spell at 1 higher spell level then normal in place of the standard advanced learning?
I've always allowed that one, and used it a couple of times when I was playing a warmage myself.