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Treantmonk's Guide to Bards (Optimization)


Advice

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Fergie wrote:
fuel gun wrote:
I really want to try the controller bard build and make the most of dazzling display. Problem is I can't see how to get dazzling display with my half-orc bard until level 5. Since the campaign is using slow progression, it might be a year or more before the group hits level 5 and I get to use it. What about taking a level of fighter at first level and then going bard all the way? A fighter would be able to meet the requirements for dazzling display at level 1. I could also get proficiency in the net this way via the beasthandler alternate racial trait (for half-orc controllers anyway).

1st level feat - Weapon Focus (My half-orc bard used a greataxe...)

3rd level feat - Dazzling Display

If you go human, you could be a first level bard with dazzling display - (bonus feat for being human).

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see why you need to wait for 5th level?

The pre-req for Weapon Focus is proficiency with weapon and base attack bonus +1 so the earliest you could take weapon focus is for your 3rd level feat (assuming you are a straight bard). http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-focus-combat---final

So... anybody have thoughts on taking a level of fighter to get dazzling display sooner? Would it hurt a controller bard that much?


Fergie wrote:
fuel gun wrote:
I really want to try the controller bard build and make the most of dazzling display. Problem is I can't see how to get dazzling display with my half-orc bard until level 5. Since the campaign is using slow progression, it might be a year or more before the group hits level 5 and I get to use it. What about taking a level of fighter at first level and then going bard all the way? A fighter would be able to meet the requirements for dazzling display at level 1. I could also get proficiency in the net this way via the beasthandler alternate racial trait (for half-orc controllers anyway).

1st level feat - Weapon Focus (My half-orc bard used a greataxe...)

3rd level feat - Dazzling Display

If you go human, you could be a first level bard with dazzling display - (bonus feat for being human).

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see why you need to wait for 5th level?

WEapon focus has a +1 bab requirement.


So... anybody have thoughts on taking a level (first) of fighter to get dazzling display sooner for an arcane duelist? Would it hurt a controller bard that much?


fuel gun wrote:
So... anybody have thoughts on taking a level (first) of fighter to get dazzling display sooner for an arcane duelist? Would it hurt a controller bard that much?

Since the controller bard is using abilities other than spells to get most of its effectiveness anyway, I don't think you would be hurt at all to take a level of fighter there.


fuel gun wrote:


The pre-req for Weapon Focus is proficiency with weapon and base attack bonus +1 so the earliest you could take weapon focus is for your 3rd level feat (assuming you are a straight bard).

DOH! Missed that +1 BAB requirement!

Might I suggest a level of Barbarian instead of fighter? That d12 HD is amazing at first level, the speed bonus is great, the skills are more diverse and you get more of them, and rage is a great boost when you really need it.

Paladin and Ranger are good as well, but probably not worth it unless you are going to take at least 2 levels.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Did you consider that there are some magical whips or weapon properties that can apply things like hideous laughter? For example the Sadist´s Lash?

Also feats like Fury´s Snare and Fury´s Fall and Srpent Lash are quite cool for wielding a whip.


Hayato Ken wrote:

Did you consider that there are some magical whips or weapon properties that can apply things like hideous laughter? For example the Sadist´s Lash?

Also feats like Fury´s Snare and Fury´s Fall and Srpent Lash are quite cool for wielding a whip.

Hadn't heard of those feats and magic items. Where are they located?


Fergie wrote:
fuel gun wrote:


The pre-req for Weapon Focus is proficiency with weapon and base attack bonus +1 so the earliest you could take weapon focus is for your 3rd level feat (assuming you are a straight bard).

DOH! Missed that +1 BAB requirement!

Might I suggest a level of Barbarian instead of fighter? That d12 HD is amazing at first level, the speed bonus is great, the skills are more diverse and you get more of them, and rage is a great boost when you really need it.

Paladin and Ranger are good as well, but probably not worth it unless you are going to take at least 2 levels.

Fighter has bonus feat which will give my 1/2 orc two feats at first level at let me taking dazzling display at 1st level. Barbarian has no bonus feat.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
fuel gun wrote:


Hadn't heard of those feats and magic items. Where are they located?

Fury´s Fall & Fury´s Snare: Cheliax Companion

Serpent´s Lash: Osirion: Land of Pharaohs
Sadist´s lash is part of an Adventure Path.


Hi,
I'm 100% new to D&D/Pathfinder (though not to pen & papers in general) and want to roll a bard.

At first I was intruiged by the trip bards (meelee and control) but I'm currently considering a half-orc without the Combat Expertise Chain that may or may not take levels in Dragon Disciple.

However - being the newbie that I am - I find it hard to imagine what a meelee bard who does skip tripping actually contributes with his meelee attacks? Is the sole purpose of the build to deal damage while you are not casting? Or am I not aware of support options beyond tripping/disarming (you briefly hint towards sundering).


Also, why do shields become viably only when discarding Combat Expertice? Isn't a whip one handed? Why not use a one handed weapon and a shield when tripping is not an option?

Also, your melee build uses 16 points (in the googledoc).
What would you recommend lowering? DEX or CON?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Zejety: I make no claims that this is optimized, but for your first character, worry about fun, not extreme optimization! Also, all the math here is from memory. So it's probably wrong.

The Bard still has 3/4ths Base Attack Bonus, so he won't be aboslutely terribad just whacking people. Tripping is useful, but so is just doing damage. One problem with a melee focused bard is that you need to bump up Strength, Charisma, Constitution, and Dexterity. That's a lot of attributes to make decent! The problem aspect of this is that if you do want to cast offensive spells, your Charisma will be fairly low, so the DCs of your spells will also be low. Thus, you'll probably be stuck around 14-16 Charisma, and be forced into just buffing. With the whip build (what I remember of it), you can just focus in Dex to still hit well, since damage isn't a big factor. Your main contribution is the tripping.

If you're interested in doing damage, take a look at the Archer build. By level 8, you'll have 5 attacks (including haste), 4 at full BAB-2 and one at BAB -7. By this point, you should have a rod of quicken, lesser, and you'll be able to cast Haste, Good Hope, and start Inspire Courage, all in one round. This'll give you and everyone else something around +4 to hit and damage, amongst other things. Add in the damage from Arcane Strike, and you'll get another +2 to damage from all hits. This probably doesn't fit with the Dragon Disciple though.

I have nothing to say about the shields / combat expertise.

If you're going into melee, don't dump Dex or Con. Dump wis or Int.


Cheapy wrote:
Zejety: I make no claims that this is optimized, but for your first character, worry about fun, not extreme optimization!

Don't worry about me. I'm mostly interested in this optimization stuff to get a feel for what's effective and what isn't. And most importantly to confirm my understanding of the rules.

Quote:
If you're going into melee, don't dump Dex or Con. Dump wis or Int.

I'm not actually talking abou dumping Con or Dex. It's just that Treantmonk's meelee build costs 16 ability points on generation and either one of those has to be decreased by 1 point.

Int and Wis are no options because that build already has 7 Wis and the 13 Int are required for Combat Expertise.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, what type of bard do you have in mind? I guess I am confused about that since you mentioned not taking the combat expertise route, then asked about lowering stats FOR a CE build.

Also remember that this guide was written before APG and UM. Have you looked through the archetypes?


Bards are fun to play.


Cheapy wrote:

Well, what type of bard do you have in mind? I guess I am confused about that since you mentioned not taking the combat expertise route, then asked about lowering stats FOR a CE build.

Also remember that this guide was written before APG and UM. Have you looked through the archetypes?

First things first, I forgot to thank you in my last post, so consider me grateful =)

At first, I was refering to Treantmonk's "Melee Bard", which is introduced as a skirmisher that supports other melee party members.
However, Treantmonk also hints towards the possibility of ignoring tripping for the sake of not needing 13 int.
I was interested in how that kind of a melee bard plays like.

I'm sorry if my newer post was confusing. That one did refer to the original build (with 13 int) again.

Our group only has/uses the basic rules.


From the APG, lingering performance looks nice for any bard build. An extra 2 rounds of performance on every performance will help a bard get a lot more mileage out of those rounds/level/day.


I've been playing the archer bard since 1st level and she rocks! She just reached 8th level and it seems the best time to consider a level dip. I first thought about levels in arcane archer, then fighter but what really crystallized was the paladin.

A single level in paladin provides smite evil, which is a big attack & AC benefit. Detect evil is a good divination. Throw in heavy armor proficiency and martial weapon proficiency and you have the option to wear mithral breastplate and use a longbow. Not bad.

Second level is also quite enticing. +4 bonus to all my saves, plus the +3/0/+3 paladin base? Yes, please. Lay on hands also provides a 5d6 healing reserve, which I can use as a swift actions...

After 2 levels, back to full bard progression. I think I'd walk away with a much more resilient and combat-powerful PC. Spellcasting is delayed, but there's no spells I'm eager to gain.

What do others think? Any success with Bard/Paladin builds?


BeauJest wrote:

I've been playing the archer bard since 1st level and she rocks! She just reached 8th level and it seems the best time to consider a level dip. I first thought about levels in arcane archer, then fighter but what really crystallized was the paladin.

A single level in paladin provides smite evil, which is a big attack & AC benefit. Detect evil is a good divination. Throw in heavy armor proficiency and martial weapon proficiency and you have the option to wear mithral breastplate and use a longbow. Not bad.

Second level is also quite enticing. +4 bonus to all my saves, plus the +3/0/+3 paladin base? Yes, please. Lay on hands also provides a 5d6 healing reserve, which I can use as a swift actions...

After 2 levels, back to full bard progression. I think I'd walk away with a much more resilient and combat-powerful PC. Spellcasting is delayed, but there's no spells I'm eager to gain.

What do others think? Any success with Bard/Paladin builds?

As long as you and your party don't mind you being a "goody two-shoes" then paladin is always a great 2 level dip.

Osirion

I've been playing the controller bard in Pathfinder Society, sticking pretty much to Treant's guide. I leveled up last night to 5, so I just got Dazzling Display (whip)
My build was pretty basic thus far:
Skill Focus (Intimidate)
Weap Focus (Whip)
Dazzling Display (Whip)
the next two feats are looking like this- Antagonize at 7 Persuasive at 9. I considered the whip n trip route, and it is really sexy, but bards can't quite afford combat expertise (and I don't think they can afford to take a level of fighter for the spells!)
I've been wanting to talk to Treant the past week or so to see what he has to say, and I'm glad to see this thread necro'd.
To be frank, this is the most fun, and perhaps most powerful character at the gaming table at any point in time.
I need feedback and advice from others on what spells are now considered optimal, as our list has grown
I've got to get back to work, but I'll be on here soon.


Cam Kimber wrote:

I've been playing the controller bard in Pathfinder Society, sticking pretty much to Treant's guide. I leveled up last night to 5, so I just got Dazzling Display (whip)

My build was pretty basic thus far:
Skill Focus (Intimidate)
Weap Focus (Whip)
Dazzling Display (Whip)
the next two feats are looking like this- Antagonize at 7 Persuasive at 9. I considered the whip n trip route, and it is really sexy, but bards can't quite afford combat expertise (and I don't think they can afford to take a level of fighter for the spells!)
I've been wanting to talk to Treant the past week or so to see what he has to say, and I'm glad to see this thread necro'd.
To be frank, this is the most fun, and perhaps most powerful character at the gaming table at any point in time.
I need feedback and advice from others on what spells are now considered optimal, as our list has grown
I've got to get back to work, but I'll be on here soon.

Glad to hear it is successful. This build was one I wasn't certain of.

If you have specific questions, fire away.


BeauJest wrote:

I've been playing the archer bard since 1st level and she rocks! She just reached 8th level and it seems the best time to consider a level dip. I first thought about levels in arcane archer, then fighter but what really crystallized was the paladin.

A single level in paladin provides smite evil, which is a big attack & AC benefit. Detect evil is a good divination. Throw in heavy armor proficiency and martial weapon proficiency and you have the option to wear mithral breastplate and use a longbow. Not bad.

Second level is also quite enticing. +4 bonus to all my saves, plus the +3/0/+3 paladin base? Yes, please. Lay on hands also provides a 5d6 healing reserve, which I can use as a swift actions...

After 2 levels, back to full bard progression. I think I'd walk away with a much more resilient and combat-powerful PC. Spellcasting is delayed, but there's no spells I'm eager to gain.

What do others think? Any success with Bard/Paladin builds?

I'm in 2 campaigns currently, and in one I'm playing the reverse of your idea (a halfling paladin archer with a one level bard dip). Never regretted the bard dip, even a single level of bard can be very effective.

Osirion

My three 2nd level spells thus far are pyrotechnics, color spray, and distressing tone. At level 5, I added distressing tone, so I haven't had the opportunity to try it out, but I think sickened will stack well with shaken. Once, my DM thought if something was intimidated 3 times, it would run off, and that made for a very interesting game (I basically scared some dudes into running through all the traps for us :]]) Also, at level 5, I have base 21 intimidate, 23 when I tap myself with my wand of Tap Inner Beauty.

I've been carrying a torch for pyro, but close range really defeats the purpose of pyrotechnics imo. There are so many good 2nd level spells I am sort of overwhelmed. I'm not taking invis cause I'll just buy all the potions of it I need, and I don't want to take Heroism, because I'll soon have a wand of it, if I find it necessary.

So if I had to boil it down to a specific question, it would be the following- What second level spells should I take, considering the huge chunks of APG and UM we (the bards) got a piece of?


If you play with hero points, Heroic Fortune is amazing. If not, it sounds like you are primarily playing a controller bard, so I'd go with the old stand-bys sound burst and silence. Silence ruins a mage's day, and sound burst can stun a lot of groups. Hold Person is a nice backup as well.


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Cam Kimber wrote:

My three 2nd level spells thus far are pyrotechnics, color spray, and distressing tone. At level 5, I added distressing tone, so I haven't had the opportunity to try it out, but I think sickened will stack well with shaken. Once, my DM thought if something was intimidated 3 times, it would run off, and that made for a very interesting game (I basically scared some dudes into running through all the traps for us :]]) Also, at level 5, I have base 21 intimidate, 23 when I tap myself with my wand of Tap Inner Beauty.

I've been carrying a torch for pyro, but close range really defeats the purpose of pyrotechnics imo. There are so many good 2nd level spells I am sort of overwhelmed. I'm not taking invis cause I'll just buy all the potions of it I need, and I don't want to take Heroism, because I'll soon have a wand of it, if I find it necessary.

So if I had to boil it down to a specific question, it would be the following- What second level spells should I take, considering the huge chunks of APG and UM we (the bards) got a piece of?

The best 2nd level spells for bards remain in the main book. Glitterdust, silence, pyrotechnics, invisibility - still are the best spells for Bards on the level 2 list.

If you haven't taken Timely inspiration on your level 1 list, you really should - it's very useful.

Honeyed tongue is a 2nd level spell not in core I might consider, depending on the type of noncombat role I'm filling.

Osirion

I said colorspray, but meant glitterdust, woops. It most certainly is a good spell though. I wasn't sure what my 6th first level spell should be, so I'll look into timely inspiration.

I couldn't take net because we are so feat starved, so I did the heirloom weapon trait to get a mwk net that I was proficient with, but it got needed this week ad I changed my traits to bully and brute, giving me a +2 more intimidate. I had intimidated huge elementals before. Every time I roll to shake something, dms just hang their heads.

Sczarni

Dotted.


ruomadajneen wrote:

I said colorspray, but meant glitterdust, woops. It most certainly is a good spell though. I wasn't sure what my 6th first level spell should be, so I'll look into timely inspiration.

I couldn't take net because we are so feat starved, so I did the heirloom weapon trait to get a mwk net that I was proficient with, but it got needed this week ad I changed my traits to bully and brute, giving me a +2 more intimidate. I had intimidated huge elementals before. Every time I roll to shake something, dms just hang their heads.

Buy and carry a net anyways. Just take the nonproficiency penalty for now when you use it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Treantmonk wrote:


If you haven't taken Timely inspiration on your level 1 list, you really should - it's very useful.

Note that the spell gives a competence bonus, so it actually won't help with failed attack rolls if, as is likely, you have up Inspire Courage when they happen (it can still do skill checks, but that's a lot less useful than if it was another bonus type). I know you said the best 2nd level spells are in the core book, but I've seen a ton of usage from Gallant Inspiration (which still doesn't stack with bard song but at least gives 2d4 as an immediate action). I only got the spell recently but have already seen excellent results from it (granted this is Kingmaker, so your daily exposure to threats is at a relatively predictable pace and you can spend your spells on Immediate actions more readily).


Good call.

Right now I'm playing a Bard 1/Paladin 8 in one of our campaigns and use Timely inspiration all the time (the other players know if they ever miss by one to just let me know).

Being primarily Paladin though, I tend not to use Inspire Courage very often.

For a pure Bard I think you are right, inspire courage is going to be up in most combats, if not all.


ruomadajneen wrote:

I said colorspray, but meant glitterdust, woops. It most certainly is a good spell though. I wasn't sure what my 6th first level spell should be, so I'll look into timely inspiration.

I couldn't take net because we are so feat starved, so I did the heirloom weapon trait to get a mwk net that I was proficient with, but it got needed this week ad I changed my traits to bully and brute, giving me a +2 more intimidate. I had intimidated huge elementals before. Every time I roll to shake something, dms just hang their heads.

For some reason I think that Trait bonus don't stack.. I think its in the rules, even if there from different sources.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There's now a feat tree in UC that lets whips threaten up to 15' with whips, as well as not take AoOs when using it. They can deal lethal damage, and ignore the natural armor bit.

The controller bard just got more awesome.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Treantmonk wrote:

Good call.

Right now I'm playing a Bard 1/Paladin 8 in one of our campaigns and use Timely inspiration all the time (the other players know if they ever miss by one to just let me know).

Being primarily Paladin though, I tend not to use Inspire Courage very often.

For a pure Bard I think you are right, inspire courage is going to be up in most combats, if not all.

That's pretty much true. Particularly given the Lingering Performance feat, I've found that in Kingmaker at least, my Bard never comes even remotely close to running out of rounds of performance, and if you're a pure Bard, even with the builds suggested here that give the Bard 'something to do' in the off-rounds, nothing is going to beat raising an Inspire Courage on the team in round 1 except in rare circumstances (and if you haven't gone yet in round 1, you can't use immediate actions). At higher levels, this is even more true because it takes less and less action investment to get up the song. I guess there are enemies that aren't even worthy of a round of bardic music, but then they wouldn't probably be worthy of using a 1st-level spell either.

With Bard dips, though, in a class that has a first action better than inspiring the team, it's clearly a solid spell. In fact, until we noticed the bonus stacking failure, we had a Bard/Cavalier (going for the Bard/Cavalier PrC in the APG) who was extremely fond of using it just as you described. It wasn't really that unbalanced for a 1st level spell even then, just left other people feeling good about getting the hit (or more often the crit confirmation!) rather than bummed about missing by 1.


That's exactly true. The attacks where you miss by one hurt the most.

It also works very nicely with my character concept. He's a halfling named "Lucky" who is a good luck charm. (The Lucky Halfling feat works very nicely with Paladin because your saves are so good), so Timely inspiration allows him to add that little bit of "luck" when they would have otherwise just missed.

Osirion

Alright, riddle me this.

I'm level 6. My spell list is Hideous Laughter, Vanish, Grease, Timely Inspiration, Glitterdust, Silence, Pyrotechnics, and Invisibility.

I can whip at +6 or net at +4.

My Intimidate is +22

What do I do if I walk into a room with oozes? How about undead? (Well, at least Grease>Net works on undead)


ruomadajneen wrote:


What do I do if I walk into a room with oozes? How about undead? (Well, at least Grease>Net works on undead)

I presume that you can trip if you use a whip, so besides the mind affecting stuff, you're not that bad against undead.

As for the oozes, step back and buff your party and/or switch to sword and board and be a somewhat weak fighter for that fight - it's just not your kind of fight, those things exist, deal with it


ruomadajneen wrote:
Alright, riddle me this.

I'll do my best.

Quote:
I'm level 6. My spell list is Hideous Laughter, Vanish, Grease, Timely Inspiration, Glitterdust, Silence, Pyrotechnics, and Invisibility.

Tell me you have a wand of Silent Image, and that's the only reason it's not on this list.

Quote:
I can whip at +6 or net at +4.

Are we dealing with a lousy point buy?

Quote:
My Intimidate is +22

Wow.

What do I do if I walk into a room with oozes?

Round 1: Inspire courage + Knowledge (Dungeoneering) Use free action to inform party what they are up against (strengths/weaknesses)

Round 2: Probably throwing alchemist fire
Round 3: Repeat

Quote:
How about undead?

Too many options and variables. Start with Knowledge (religion), then: Inspire courage, Whip trip, Silent Image (wand), Grease, Pyrotechnics, Invisibility, Net...You're hardly low on options here.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Treantmonk wrote:
Tell me you have a wand of Silent Image, and that's the only reason it's not on this list.

At least in general guides, Treantmonk, I seriously think you need to drop your love of this spell (and illusions in general) down several notches. The issue with it is that it is EXTREMELY GM dependent. Most I've seen will use ANY excuse to give the NPCs their disbelief roll, which drops it down to being "must-have" to "bad"


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Chris Kenney wrote:


At least in general guides, Treantmonk, I seriously think you need to drop your love of this spell (and illusions in general) down several notches. The issue with it is that it is EXTREMELY GM dependent. Most I've seen will use ANY excuse to give the NPCs their disbelief roll, which drops it down to being "must-have" to "bad"

Thanks for the feedback. I do think illusions (especially this spell) deserve the "blue" rating if the GM plays the game properly.

If your GM hates illusions, and therefore cheats to nerf them, naturally this would affect the rating in your game. My ratings assume your GM plays by the rules, and are opinion, and subjective based on my own experience.

However, if you are having issues with these spells, there might be some confusion with how the rules work regarding illusions as well.

Let's deal with Silent Image specifically.

Silent Image is an Illusion (figment) - with such spells there is always a Will save with the caveat (if interacted with).

So what is interaction? Well, this was clarified way back in 3.5, here's a LINK to my old illusion guide for 3.5, there are 4 links on the bottom where the developers go into detail on the mechanics behind illusions, including "interaction"

With interaction, the basic rule is that interacting with an illusion requires a standard action. That standard action may be touching, carefully examining, or any other kind of scrutinizing, but the standard action requirement is across the board.

Now, let's assume your GM is reasonable. He may have enemies scrutinize spell effects regularly, or he may have them scrutinize rarely, but it should be consistent.

Appearance wise, there is no difference between a wall of stone and a silent image of a wall of stone, and without interaction, there is no saving throw to determine the difference. (If the enemy has spellcraft they could determine what spell you cast, but most do not. Note: that's an advantage to a silent image wand BTW)

If the GM constantly and consistently has enemies spend a standard action to examine every wall of stone you cast, that's fine, then when it's an illusion, they will get a save, but every time it's real, they will waste an action.

If the GM rarely and consistently has enemies assume the wall is real, that's fine too, when it's an illusion, they won't get a save at all unless they try to break through or something.

If the GM has the enemies spend a standard action to scrutinize the wall when it is an illusion, but not when it's real, then call him on it. That's metagaming, and unfair. The problem then isn't the spell, it's the GM.

I hope that helps explain my position.


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I found what I was looking for:

Interacting with illusions by Skip Williams wrote:

According to page 173 in the Player's Handbook, you don't receive a saving throw against an illusion effect with a disbelief saving throw until you study the illusion carefully or interact with it in some way. The text uses an illusory floor as an example. The character in the example provided there gets a saving throw by stopping to examine the floor (study) or by probing the floor (interaction).

For game purposes, we can define "studying" an illusion as taking an action (which DMs can choose to make a move action since this is an extrapolation of the rules and not an actual rule) to observe an illusion effect and note its details. Some DMs I know require a Spot or Search check to disbelieve an illusion. That's going too far. Merely pausing and using an action to make the check is enough to allow a saving throw.

Also for game purposes, we can define "interacting" with an illusion as doing something that could affect the illusion or allowing the illusion to have an affect on you. You have a valid claim to an interaction with an illusion when you attack it, touch it, talk to it, poke it with a stick, target it with a spell, or do something else that one might do with a real creature or object.

The key to disbelieving an illusion is investing some time and effort in the illusion. If you decide to ignore the illusion, you don't get a saving throw to disbelieve it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think that Chris Kenney says that some DMs read interacted with as see it and give a free action save.


leo1925 wrote:
I think that Chris Kenney says that some DMs read interacted with as see it and give a free action save.

That's why I posted the Skip Williams clarification on "interact" with directions to the link he can provide his GM if necessary. Hopefully that helps him.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Treantmonk wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I think that Chris Kenney says that some DMs read interacted with as see it and give a free action save.
That's why I posted the Skip Williams clarification on "interact" with directions to the link he can provide his GM if necessary. Hopefully that helps him.

Yes but i had already clicked the response button before you post that.

Anyway i think that a standart action is more appropriate than a move one.


Also, let's be fair. At first level, a spell that gives the enemy a will save which, if he fails, allows me TO CHANGE REALITY is still a 4-star rating.

All of the image spells are outstanding. It's a pity that they are, by and large, redundant. =)

-Cross


Why? Many interactions are move actions.

Using the wall of stone example and ruling that you must use a standard action means that you only get a saving throw if you stand there doing nothing as opposed to say trying to climb over it. Surely no one would seriously dispute that climbing something isn't interacting with it.

Its a throwback to the old "attempt to disbelieve" test which the rules deliberately moved away from.

Alternatively, if the NPC accepts that your illusion of a magically created wall of stone is a magically created wall of stone and tries to get around it then fine, no saving throw.


Dan E wrote:
Why? Many interactions are move actions.

Well, Skip Williams said, "The key to disbelieving an illusion is investing some time and effort in the illusion. "

Quote:
Surely no one would seriously dispute that climbing something isn't interacting with it.

I wouldn't. I might suggest that because the wall isn't responding properly, the move action to climb becomes a standard action because they are confused.

Naturally, the GM needs to be the final arbiter in these things, but according to the guys that wrote the rules in the first place, the "interaction" is intended to take a standard action normally.

Quote:
Its a throwback to the old "attempt to disbelieve" test which the rules deliberately moved away from.

Skip Williams helped write the rules, so I think if we're discussing what was intended, he's pretty much the most reliable source you are going to find. (Plus, he's "The Sage", who authored most of the FAQ)


Treantmonk wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I think that Chris Kenney says that some DMs read interacted with as see it and give a free action save.
That's why I posted the Skip Williams clarification on "interact" with directions to the link he can provide his GM if necessary. Hopefully that helps him.

Because that's totally going to persuade a DM going "That wall isn't real!" and making it useless.

Having non-committal DMs is why I don't generally use images. I think I used Silent Image once to create the illusion our party totally wasn't in the room we were filling wall to wall when some goon decided to have a quick look.


Cartigan wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
I think that Chris Kenney says that some DMs read interacted with as see it and give a free action save.
That's why I posted the Skip Williams clarification on "interact" with directions to the link he can provide his GM if necessary. Hopefully that helps him.
Because that's totally going to persuade a DM going "That wall isn't real!" and making it useless.

Here's my experience with GMs

- they don't consider the game a me vs the players scenario
- they want to use the rules as intended
- if you point out an FAQ before gameplay, they have no problem incorporating it
- if they purposefully stray from the rules, there is usually a reasonable reason why

Maybe I'm just lucky (If you guys end up reading this: Thank you Travis and Ed!)

I haven't had a GM like you are describing since High School - that's more than 20 years ago for me.

Osirion

Oh yes, my wand of silent image is in a spring loaded wrist sheath. it's my go to most of the time.

I do understand there are some fights that just don't fit my character, I just wanted to see how to deal with the more difficult things I've encountered.

With dazzling display being so awesome, do you think Ultimate Combat shook up the controller bards feat build after dazzling display?


Chris Kenney wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:
Tell me you have a wand of Silent Image, and that's the only reason it's not on this list.
At least in general guides, Treantmonk, I seriously think you need to drop your love of this spell (and illusions in general) down several notches. The issue with it is that it is EXTREMELY GM dependent. Most I've seen will use ANY excuse to give the NPCs their disbelief roll, which drops it down to being "must-have" to "bad"

I noticed this in my HAQ (hypothetically asked questions) in my Druid Handbook. When I saw it, I thought of this post...

Treantmonk wrote:

You rated a spell incorrectly. Will you change it?

Spell ratings are opinion based, so no, my rating is an exact and correct reflection of my opinion. Changing my opinion would be necessary to get me to change my rating, and I'm notoriously stubborn.

That said, I have changed spell ratings before, and will do so again. However, relating your own personal experience doesn't cut it.

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