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I don't think this has been cleared up in PFRPG, but I could be wrong:
Does using a scroll count as casting a spell for purposes of feats and special abilities like:
- Augment Summoning
- Spell Focus
- an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells
- various sorcerers' Bloodline Arcana abilities
etc.?
And what about wands and potions? Do they count as casting a spell for the same purposes?
Nope, none of those items count for any of those kinds of feats. The only magic items that are able to be effected in some small ways are spells cast from staves.
Augment Summoning does work when casting from a scroll. See this thread where Jason even confirms that.
Nope, none of those items count for any of those kinds of feats. The only magic items that are able to be effected in some small ways are spells cast from staves.Augment Summoning does work when casting from a scroll. See this thread where Jason even confirms that.
As do other effects such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, etc.
Hmm! I missed that line: "Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way."
That seems to clarify things a bit, thanks!
Hmm! I missed that line: "Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way."
That seems to clarify things a bit, thanks!
You just have to remember the Caster Level is not your own, but that of the scroll. Only spells cast from staves use the wielder's caster level (if the wielder wishes to)
Therefore, a scroll of Summon Monster II likely only lasts 3 rounds unless the uhm, scroll scribbler had some money to burn.
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I've always been under the impression that your feats were irrelevant for scrolls. Not sure if that was true in 3.5/3rd edition or not, but I assumed it was so.
Never really thought of it though at the same time, spell focus affecting a scroll only does so much. People could have been doing it and I'd just have completely missed it.
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Going basic:
A bard cast a grease spell from a (caster level 1) scroll, of course the spells last only one round, but what about the spell DC? Does the bard add his CHA bonus?
From the prevous ruling, the answer would be 'yes'(and I think it would be simpler like that).
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I don't think this has been cleared up in PFRPG, but I could be wrong:
Does using a scroll count as casting a spell for purposes of feats and special abilities like:
- Augment Summoning
yes
Spell Focus
yes
an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells
yes
various sorcerers' Bloodline Arcana abilities
etc.?
no, most of these are metamagic type things.
And what about wands and potions? Do they count as casting a spell for the same purposes?
wands? no
Potions? also no
Staves on the other hand I would say yes
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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A bard cast a grease spell from a (caster level 1) scroll, of course the spells last only one round, but what about the spell DC? Does the bard add his CHA bonus?
Taking what he said, you could interpret it this way.
But I think it is supposed to take the minimum ability score to cast a spell of that level when used from the Wand. Isn't there a line to this effect in the item crafting rules?
Hmmm, I'm still a little confused...
I am under the impression that when you scribe a scroll, that is when all the ability modifiers, feats and such are applied. Reading the scroll just releases what was originally written, not altering it in any way.
"Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way"
It seems like this must be referring to the one who scribed the scroll, as someone with a good Use Magic Device skill has no "normal" way of casting.
On a related subject, I recall reading that potions of Resist Energy must specify what energy type is resisted, but that is not the case for scrolls or wands. Can anyone confirm this?
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I am under the impression that when you scribe a scroll, that is when all the ability modifiers, feats and such are applied. Reading the scroll just releases what was originally written, not altering it in any way.
Nope, if that was the case, every scroll would have to list what the ability modifiers, feats, etc. of the scriber were. Since they don't, and only list CL (caster level), that's the only property they retain from the scriber. Everything else derives from the scroll reader. If the Wizard scribing the scroll has Int 15 and Cha 10, and the Sorcerer using the scroll has Int 10 and Cha 16, the Sorcerer gets to use his own +3 Charisma modifier to determine the spell's DC, he isn't stuck using the Wizard's +0 Cha modifier, or even the Wizards +2 Int modifier.
Similarly, it doesn't matter if the scriber had Spell Focus or Augment Summons or Spell Penetration. If the scroll gets UMD'd by a Factotum or Rogue, the reader benefits from none of that.
Also, I think that potions of resist energy must specify what energy type is resisted, but that is not the case for scrolls or wands. Can anyone confirm this?
You are correct for scrolls (p 490). By reading the scroll you are 'casting' the spell in all ways, and can choose it's effects, if it is a spell with multiple options. The scroll is just resist elements, and the reader can choose to resist electricity or acid or whatever at the time of 'casting.'
You are also correct for potions (p 477, second paragraph under potions). All decisions are made by the potions crafter, and take effect automagically when consumed by the drinker. So a potion of resist elements would have to be pre-designated as 'resist cold' or 'resist fire.'
I'm not seeing specific verbiage for wands, staves, etc. but several such items (staff of abjuration - resist energy, staff of conjuration - minor creation, summon monster VI) have multiple-option spells, but don't have their options specified suggests to me that the user of the item gets to choose the effects of a resist energy or summon monster VI or whatever.
various sorcerers' Bloodline Arcana abilities[/list]
etc.?
no, most of these are metamagic type things.
Specifically I was thinking about Fey (+2 to DCs when casting compulsions), Infernal (+2 to DCs when casting charms), Draconic (+1 per die of damage when casting a certain energy type), Undead (spells can affect undead as if they were humanoids), Destiny (+1 bonus when casting a Personal-range spell), etc. None of those are particularly metamagical.
Specifically I was thinking about Fey (+2 to DCs when casting compulsions), Infernal (+2 to DCs when casting charms), Draconic (+1 per die of damage when casting a certain energy type), Undead (spells can affect undead as if they were humanoids), Destiny (+1 bonus when casting a Personal-range spell), etc. None of those are particularly metamagical.
various sorcerers' Bloodline Arcana abilities[/list]
etc.?
no, most of these are metamagic type things.
I would allow those powers to work with scrolls.
A bard cast a grease spell from a (caster level 1) scroll, of course the spells last only one round, but what about the spell DC? Does the bard add his CHA bonus?Taking what he said, you could interpret it this way.
But I think it is supposed to take the minimum ability score to cast a spell of that level when used from the Wand. Isn't there a line to this effect in the item crafting rules?
I interpret it that way too. Cha would therefore be 11 (+0)for a 1st lvl bard spell.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I am under the impression that when you scribe a scroll, that is when all the ability modifiers, feats and such are applied. Reading the scroll just releases what was originally written, not altering it in any way.
That definitely doesn't work. There is no Level Adjustment for feats like Augmented Summoning, and other rider effects so there is no way to put them in a Scroll.
No way to balance it, means that one 3rd level Scroll would be materially better than another 3rd level Scroll at the same price. That is explicitly forbidden in item creation rules.
The text sure seems to indicate that the DC is based on the item, unless we are talking about staves...
"Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs. "
The way we used to handle it was to always assume it was done at a minimum.
So an arcane level scroll of say Glitterdust was written by a wizard of 3rd level who had a 12 int for example.
Any additional feats simply weren't included as it was assumed the creator didn't have them.
That is also correct.
Feats are added by the scrolls user at it is activated.The exception are metamagic feats which fundamentally change the spell and (usually) its spell level.
I do not know if it is raw, but I would allow Metamagic(0 mod.) to be added while casting. While Metamagic(0+mod.) to be added by the scrolls creator.
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Specifically I was thinking about Fey (+2 to DCs when casting compulsions), Infernal (+2 to DCs when casting charms), Draconic (+1 per die of damage when casting a certain energy type), Undead (spells can affect undead as if they were humanoids), Destiny (+1 bonus when casting a Personal-range spell), etc. None of those are particularly metamagical.
various sorcerers' Bloodline Arcana abilities[/list]
etc.?
no, most of these are metamagic type things.
Ahh, I thought you were referring specifically to Bloodline Arcana as mentioned. I didn't realize you meant the other bloodlines.
Just bumping this to point out that I hope this is adressed in the FAQ. :-)
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A bit of ruling history:
Back in 3.0, a Wiz1/FtrX wearing full plate armor could read a scroll of shield whitout arcane spell failure chance because he was reading a scroll, not casting a spell, and thus gaining a whopping +7 bonus to his AC.
This is why the rule was changed in 3.5, and adopted in Pathfinder:
A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way."
So when you are activating a scroll (belonging to your class spell list), you are not activating a magic item nor just reading a magical writing, but you are effectively casting a spell, (and your ability score should apply to determine the spell DC).
Thus you must provide the somatic component for the spell and arcane spell failure does apply!
UMD has his own rules: the UMD check emulates the minimum ability score to activate the scroll, so the DC depends on that minimum ability score.
Hope this helps!
That's how I would rule, but I've gotten some raised eyebrows from GMs when I suggest that I should get my evoker bonus to damage on a spell cast from a scroll (say). And it even strikes me as a little counter-intuitive that Spell Focus would apply when the DC for casting from a scroll is fixed.
At any rate, you can see from the diversity of responses in this thread that opinions are mixed.
A bit of ruling history:
Back in 3.0, a Wiz1/FtrX wearing full plate armor could read a scroll of shield whitout arcane spell failure chance because he was reading a scroll, not casting a spell, and thus gaining a whopping +7 bonus to his AC.
This is why the rule was changed in 3.5, and adopted in Pathfinder:
A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way."
So when you are activating a scroll (belonging to your class spell list), you are not activating a magic item nor just reading a magical writing, but you are effectively casting a spell, (and your ability score should apply to determine the spell DC).
Thus you must provide the somatic component for the spell and arcane spell failure does apply!
UMD has his own rules: the UMD check emulates the minimum ability score to activate the scroll, so the DC depends on that minimum ability score.
Hope this helps!
Quote:
"A bit of ruling history:
Back in 3.0, a Wiz1/FtrX wearing full plate armor could read a scroll of shield without arcane spell failure chance...more... "
Seems the same problem would apply to wands as well. There is even a racial thing in the APG that allows you to have an effective caster level. This makes the shielded, mirror imaged, true strike fighter a little too easy in my opinion. I mean, why wouldn't every martial character do this and have a variety of wands for buffing and the occasional scorching ray or touch of idiocy?
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Quote:
"A bit of ruling history:Back in 3.0, a Wiz1/FtrX wearing full plate armor could read a scroll of shield without arcane spell failure chance...more... "
Seems the same problem would apply to wands as well. There is even a racial thing in the APG that allows you to have an effective caster level. This makes the shielded, mirror imaged, true strike fighter a little too easy in my opinion. I mean, why wouldn't every martial character do this and have a variety of wands for buffing and the occasional scorching ray or touch of idiocy?
You can do that, but it is much less effective than it seems.
You will need a move action (that provokes an AoO) to 'sheat' the wand back in your inventory. Or you can take the risk an enemy fighter sunder your wand (750 gp loss for 1st level or 4500 gp loss for a 2nd level wand).
Try it...
Note that this question has been answered in the FAQ (by SKR). Hurray!
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.
This somewhat contradicts Jason's earlier remark about Augment Summoning working with scrolls, but frankly I like Sean's ruling better.