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I noticed that CL is part of the description of the item, which is, obviously, normal. However, it also appears that you do not need to have a caster level equal to the CL in order to make the item. It is not always listed as a requirement. Does that mean you do not need to meet the CL if it doesn't say you have to?
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I noticed that CL is part of the description of the item, which is, obviously, normal. However, it also appears that you do not need to have a caster level equal to the CL in order to make the item. It is not always listed as a requirement. Does that mean you do not need to meet the CL if it doesn't say you have to?
The short answer, from what I have pieced together, is that the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level except for potions, scrolls and wands.
"Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives
the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The
caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well
as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of
the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must
be contended with should the item come under the effect of a
dispel magic spell or similar situation.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the
caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast
the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For
other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item
itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as
the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a
higher minimum on the creator’s level)." page 460 PFRPG core rulebook.
Additionally:
"The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the
enhancement bonus of the weapon." page 551 PFRPG core rulebook.
The same applies for enhancement bonuses for armor. (page 550)
The long answer can be found in threads like:
and
Magical Item Creation Or Bust.
and
Is This A Crafted Munchkin Item?.
Cheers
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Does that mean you do not need to meet the CL if it doesn't say you have to?
Correct.
CL isn't needed for making the item, but the item has the CL of you when you create it and you must have sufficient CL to cast the spell at the minimum CL for the spell to be able to provide the requirement.
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Just to be clear, what I am saying is that if one wanted to create, say, a bag of holding (which has a CL of 9th), you would need to have at least a CL of 9 to create it. Even though you can get Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level, you cannot make the bag until you have a CL of 9. (Or 9 ranks in a craft skill if you use the Master Craftsman feat)
I have asked for "official" confirmation of this but nothing has been forthcoming so far.
Just to be clear, what I am saying is that if one wanted to create, say, a bag of holding (which has a CL of 9th), you would need to have at least a CL of 9 to create it. Even though you can get Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level, you cannot make the bag until you have a CL of 9. (Or 9 ranks in a craft skill if you use the Master Craftsman feat)
I have asked for "official" confirmation of this but nothing has been forthcoming so far.
Although the quoted rules make it seem otherwise, I just do not think the listed CL in the item specs is the minimum CL the caster has to be. Pearls of Power have a CL of 17!!!. That would mean only casters of 17th level or higher can create a Pearl of Power(1st).
Some official answer would be nice indeed.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Just to be clear, what I am saying is that if one wanted to create, say, a bag of holding (which has a CL of 9th)
First, ignore the CL listed.
Second, calculate the minimum required CR as a result of spell requirements.Third, make the item at that CR or higher or the CR listed at your option.
If you can't supply the CR needed (because you can't supply the spell for instance) then make it using the "ignore prereq" rules. If you can cast the spell needed at 3rd level but normally it is a 9th level spell (5th spell slot) then you can make it at CL 3 (2nd spell slot.)
Just to be clear, what I am saying is that if one wanted to create, say, a bag of holding (which has a CL of 9th), you would need to have at least a CL of 9 to create it. Even though you can get Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level, you cannot make the bag until you have a CL of 9. (Or 9 ranks in a craft skill if you use the Master Craftsman feat)
I have asked for "official" confirmation of this but nothing has been forthcoming so far.
Caster level is not a requirement, but a value as to how powerful or resistant (regarding saving throws) the item is.
The creator of a bag of holding would have to be at least 9th level, because secret chest is a 5th level spell, although he could well be lower than 9th level and utilize a lot of secret chest scrolls to accomplish the task (i.e. 3 scrolls for a type I bag, 10 for a type IV).
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Although the quoted rules make it seem otherwise, I just do not think the listed CL in the item specs is the minimum CL the caster has to be. Pearls of Power have a CL of 17!!!. That would mean only casters of 17th level or higher can create a Pearl of Power(1st).Some official answer would be nice indeed.
Maybe the Pearls CL should read variable instead of 17? Like other items.
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If the CL is not a requirement that needs to be met and can be set at whatever the item creator desires (as long as it does not exceed his own CL) then...
A 3rd level wizard with an intelligence of 18, that has taken the Craft Wondrous Item feat, has maxed out his ranks in Spellcraft (3 ranks + 4 Int + 3 class skill = 10) and can cast the spells bear’s endurance, bull’s strength and cat’s grace can...
...create a Belt of Physical Perfection setting the CL to 3 and needing only to make a DC check of 8 (which he can't fail) regardless of the enhancement bonus. Only gold pieces would restrict/determine what enhancement bonus the belt would have.
Of course the belt would be more susceptible to dispel magic etc. but who wouldn't want one of these at 3rd level? How about a Headband of Mental Superiority? Just as easy. Want to make a Robe of the Archmagi? Plunk down your 37,500 gp and make a DC 13 check and it too can be yours at 3rd level.
I therefore believe that the purpose of the CL restriction/requirement is to control when ( at what level) certain items can be crafted, for game balance issues. Otherwise it just falls mostly to gold to hold item creation back and that doesn't seem right.
Of course I could be wrong. Again a little "official" help would be appreciated.
Cheers
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Then why list it? At least list it accurately then, yes?
First, ignore the CL listed.
It is listed because that is the CL of found or bought items. You need to know the CL only when making Dispel Checks against the item (or anything else that depends on the item's CL like durations if it gives off a spell effect.)
The CL of the item is the CL that you make the item. So if you make two separate items (both requiring a 3rd level spell), one could be at CL 5 and the other could be at CL 17. But if your real caster level is 4, you can't make the CL 17 one (because you are not 17th CL) and to make the CL5 one you would need to add the +5 (iirc) penalty for lacking a prereq (namely the spell since you can't cast it.)
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It is listed because that is the CL of found or bought items. You need to know the CL only when making Dispel Checks against the item (or anything else that depends on the item's CL like durations if it gives off a spell effect.)
The CL of the item is the CL that you make the item. So if you make two separate items (both requiring a 3rd level spell), one could be at CL 5 and the other could be at CL 17. But if your real caster level is 4, you can't make the CL 17 one (because you are not 17th CL) and to make the CL5 one you would need to add the +5 (iirc) penalty for lacking a prereq (namely the spell since you can't cast it.)
I understand the implications to dispel checks. And that doesn't answer why the CL aren't listed "accurately".
I'll give you some time to respond to my other points.
In the mean time, why are potions, wands, scrolls etc. found (as treasure) with varying CL and not the rest of the magic items? Why wouldn't designers drop items with varying CL all across the board?
The CL of the item is the CL that you make the item. So if you make two separate items (both requiring a 3rd level spell), one could be at CL 5 and the other could be at CL 17. But if your real caster level is 4, you can't make the CL 17 one (because you are not 17th CL) and to make the CL5 one you would need to add the +5 (iirc) penalty for lacking a prereq (namely the spell since you can't cast it.)
Where does it say that the caster level of a wondrous item is determined by the caster? I think you might be extrapolating the rules for wands, potions, and scrolls here. For other items, that is determined by the item, not the caster.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the
caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast
the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For
other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item
I don't see that as being ambiguous at all. A 3rd level wizard and 20th level wizard both make boots of levitation at CL 3. There aren't any decisions you make about CL when crafting a wondrous item as far as I can tell.
I agree with you here. The CL of an item is designed to help restrict when it can be made, and is partialy determined by the spells involved. some people cited the pearls of power above as a justification for ignoreing the CL of the item because the cost is low. The reason all the pearl types have the same CL is because they are all made with the same spell.
OK,
I've read these posts and they seem to make no sense to me, it's reads as if you're subtracting the CL from 20 or something.
My understanding of item creation :
Item has a CL of 9.
Scenario 1 : Crafter is 5th level.
Scenario 2 : Crafter is 9th level.
Scenario 3 : Crafter is 15th level.
All scenario's assume the crafter has the appropriate spell on his spell list.
Scenario 1 : Crafter cannot make the item. He is level 5, required CL is 9, he fails. He needs 4 more Caster Levels.
Scenario 2 : Crafter can make the item, he makes it with a caster level of 9th. All caster level dependent effects use 9th level.
Scenario 3 : Crafter can make the item, he may set his caster level at any caster level between 9 (minimum to make the item) and 15 (his current caster level). If he makes it at 15th CL, it costs more, but has bigger/better effects. If he makes it at 9th CL, it costs the amount in the book, which is cheaper, but the effects are based on CL 9.
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OK,
I've read these posts and they seem to make no sense to me, it's reads as if you're subtracting the CL from 20 or something.My understanding of item creation :
Item has a CL of 9.
Scenario 1 : Crafter is 5th level.
Scenario 2 : Crafter is 9th level.
Scenario 3 : Crafter is 15th level.All scenario's assume the crafter has the appropriate spell on his spell list.
Scenario 1 : Crafter cannot make the item. He is level 5, required CL is 9, he fails. He needs 4 more Caster Levels.
Scenario 2 : Crafter can make the item, he makes it with a caster level of 9th. All caster level dependent effects use 9th level.
Scenario 3 : Crafter can make the item, he may set his caster level at any caster level between 9 (minimum to make the item) and 15 (his current caster level). If he makes it at 15th CL, it costs more, but has bigger/better effects. If he makes it at 9th CL, it costs the amount in the book, which is cheaper, but the effects are based on CL 9.
This is what I have been saying since post #2 of this thread and before that in the other threads. :)
EDIT: I'm not sure about scenario 3's claim that increasing the CL costs more in all cases. Increasing the CL makes the DC to create he item go up in all cases (5 + CL), but not necessarily the cost (like items that use spells that aren't level dependent). The reason that creator's would make higher CL for those types of items would be for the reason given before (dispel checks).
EDIT: I'm not sure about scenario 3's claim that increasing the CL costs more in all cases. Increasing the CL makes the DC to create he item go up in all cases (5 + CL), but not necessarily the cost (like items that use spells that aren't level dependent). The reason that creator's would make higher CL for those types of items would be for the reason given before (dispel checks).
Maybe this link will help explain things better. It's for 3.5, but I think is still relevant.
Bottom line, you can only adjust the CL for scrolls, potions, wands, and staves. I don't see this being different between 3.5 and 3.p.
Ok, even given that, there is nothing in the rules about being able to create an CL 9 item at CL 5.
Honestly, I've never had to look into it all that much, my players usually contract out to have their equipment made.
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Bottom line, you can only adjust the CL for scrolls, potions, wands, and staves. I don't see this being different between 3.5 and 3.p.
and
Ok, even given that, there is nothing in the rules about being able to create an CL 9 item at CL 5.
Agreed.
"Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives
the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The
caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well
as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of
the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must
be contended with should the item come under the effect of a
dispel magic spell or similar situation.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the the
caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast
the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For
other magic items, the caster level is determined by . In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as
the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a
higher minimum on the creator’s level)." page 460
So then:
1. The CL for potions, scrolls or wands are set by the creator. The CL must be high enough to cast the spell(s) required and no higher than the creator's own CL.
2. The CL for all other items are set by the item itself. (Not by the creator)
3. The creator’s CL must be as high as the item’s CL (a minimum CL needed to create the item which pre-requisites may effectively increase).
So back to mdt's example:
Item has a CL of 9.
Scenario 1 : Crafter is 5th level.
Scenario 2 : Crafter is 9th level.
Scenario 3 : Crafter is 15th level.
All scenario's assume the crafter has the appropriate spell on his spell list.
Scenario 1 : Crafter cannot make the item. He is level 5, required CL is 9, he fails. He needs 4 more Caster Levels. YES
Scenario 2 : Crafter can make the item, he makes it with a caster level of 9th. All caster level dependent effects use 9th level. YES
Scenario 3 : Crafter can make the item, he may set his caster level at any caster level between 9 (minimum to make the item) and 15 (his current caster level). If he makes it at 15th CL, it costs more, but has bigger/better effects. If he makes it at 9th CL, it costs the amount in the book, which is cheaper, but the effects are based on CL 9. If the item in question is a potion, scroll or wand, YES. Otherwise NO. CL is determined by those items themselves and cannot be changed.
Sounds right to me. :)
Ok, related question. The wizard in my group is looking to create a Headband of Vast Intelligence +2. He's got the feat, he's got the spell, he's got the time & money. The trick is that he's only 4th level, and the Caster Level listed for the item is 8. Can he not bypass that Caster Level prequisite by adding +5 to the skill DC check required at the end of crafting?
Ok, related question. The wizard in my group is looking to create a Headband of Vast Intelligence +2. He's got the feat, he's got the spell, he's got the time & money. The trick is that he's only 4th level, and the Caster Level listed for the item is 8. Can he not bypass that Caster Level prequisite by adding +5 to the skill DC check required at the end of crafting?
No,
Caster Level is not a prerequisite, you simply can't make the item without it. A prerequisite would be not having the spell, not having the right components (for example, no masterwork sash, if your GM insists on it), or tools (if you don't have access to a magical lab to work in).As a GM I might let you get away with one level for a +5, but it would just be me being nice.
Ok, related question. The wizard in my group is looking to create a Headband of Vast Intelligence +2. He's got the feat, he's got the spell, he's got the time & money. The trick is that he's only 4th level, and the Caster Level listed for the item is 8. Can he not bypass that Caster Level prequisite by adding +5 to the skill DC check required at the end of crafting?No,
Caster Level is not a prerequisite, you simply can't make the item without it. A prerequisite would be not having the spell, not having the right components (for example, no masterwork sash, if your GM insists on it), or tools (if you don't have access to a magical lab to work in).As a GM I might let you get away with one level for a +5, but it would just be me being nice.
I can definitely see how the rules appear to say that, but that leads back to the weird result of reasonably simple items like a 1st level Pearl of Power requiring a near-epic level caster (17th) to create. Dust of Illusion, a single-use of a 1st level glamer requires 6th level? I haven't gone through the entire Wonderous Items list, so perhaps these are just outliers. Feather Tokens seemed unreasonably difficult to create for their cost as well, but then they're based on Major Creation so it's hard to judge.
My take on the Caster Level requirement is that yes, they are there to restrict what items can be created by what level of caster. However, you should be able to bypass it like any other restriction (save the feat) by accepting the increase in difficulty. This actually makes even more sense than being able to bypass a missing spell component.
I think it also explains the existance of cursed items. After all, once you're high enough caster level to create the most items (by your interpretation), your skill checks will be high enough that there's little chance of you missing the DC by 5 or more, even with a +5 penalty for missing one required element.
Agreed KK
Example:
Item has a CL of 9, and a 4th level spell as a prerequisite. Item is not a potion, wand, scroll, or staff.
Scenario 1 : Crafter is 5th level.
Scenario 2 : Crafter is 9th level.
Scenario 3 : Crafter is 15th level.
CL of the item is 5th, meaning if the item has spell effects and not permanent effects (think Cape of the Mountebank vs. Boots of Striding and Springing), then the CL of those effects would be 5th instead of 9th.
CL of the item is 9th.
Scenario 3 : Crafter can make the item, DC to craft is 14. He may set his caster level at any caster level between 9 (minimum to make the item) and 15 (his current caster level). If he makes it at 15th CL, it may cost more, if this would cause bigger/better effects. If he makes it at 9th CL, it costs the amount in the book, which is cheaper, but the effects are based on CL 9.
For example, Armor +3 requires 9th caster level. The DC to craft is 14: 9 + 5. If an 8th level caster attempts to make it, the DC increases by +5 for ignoring the prereq (19 total).
If he tried to make it +3 Holy, Axiomatic, at increased speed, it would be DC 44: 9th (for +3) +5 (not meeting 9th CL prereq for +3) +5 (not good) +5 (not lawful) +5 (no holy smite) +5 (no order's wrath) +5 (rushed) +5 (standard).
It's also stating that when your CL is lower than the normal CL of an item (non-scroll/wand/etc), the item's CL drops to yours. That way your say, Pearl of power 1st (DC 22), that you managed to create at 4th level doesn't have the saves of a CL 17 item.
And for the record, the DC to create a Belt of Physical Perfection is 21 if you have all the prereqs (bull's, bear's, and cat's). A 3rd level wizard with +10 spellcraft would have a 20% chance of failure, and a 35% chance of cursing it.
Just jumping in here quick, this has been covered a few times. In short, the CL was only a requirement for Craft Arms and Armor in 3.5. The wording has not really changed with Pathfinder, and I would not apply CL as a requirement unless it states it to be one as in Weapons/Armor.
Then you have the absurd reality of a an 11th level caster creating a staff with Miracle in it, with Miracle having a CL of 11, since you can't set a CL higher than your own level.
The reason arms/armor has a specific call-out on it is that the item section itself doesn't list CL for weapon bonuses. Note that specific weapons and armor do have a caster level on them. If you didn't have the explanation in the weapons/armor section, you could end up with the (again absurdity) situation of a 5th level caster enchanting a +10 sword. And before you say that's impossible, 5 ranks spellcraft, class skill, +4 int. Since there's no caster level listed for a +10 (except in the armor/weapon enchantment explanation) and the DC is 5+CL, with no CL, DC is 5 to create a +10 item. That's uh... let's see, take 1 and autowin cause I rolled 13 and needed 5?
Caster Level is there to keep low-level enchanters from making uber equipment before they are level appropriate. If you could just ignore the CL and create it at any level you wanted, then why bother listing the CL for an item?
As to the pearls, it's a logic trap. You can't create the pearl without a 9th level spell (or was it 8th?) ergo, you can't create them until you are that level because you don't have access to the spell, so even the weak ones require an arch-mage to create them (probably something he does for pocket money when he goes to town). Takes him a day to make a low-level one.
Um, yes, you can make the pearl without the high level spell. As was mentioned before, not meeting the prerequisite only makes it harder, not impossible.
And the pearl only requires the level of spell that the pearl is, so one appropriate to your level is fairly achievable around level 10-12 (DC 27 spellcraft check).
Um, yes, you can make the pearl without the high level spell. As was mentioned before, not meeting the prerequisite only makes it harder, not impossible.
And the pearl only requires the level of spell that the pearl is, so one appropriate to your level is fairly achievable around level 10-12 (DC 27 spellcraft check).
Just quoting from memory from the above conversation, so maybe I did get the spell level wrong. But I am correct about CL's being a hard rule that you have to meet to make the item.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'll give you some time to respond to my other points.
Why wouldn't designers drop items with varying CL all across the board?
What points?
Who is the designer? Paizo? Or the DM? In either case, the DM may make any valid CL he wishes. Just set it to that, as it won't change the price unless the effect has a factor that involves CL.
There aren't any decisions you make about CL when crafting a wondrous item as far as I can tell.
What do you mean by decisions? You can't make it with a CL below the spell requirement's CL, but other than that on Wondrous items that have no factor based on CL you are free to set the CL to anything you can accomplish. Unless the Wondrous item has these effects that depend on CL, the CL is only used to factor Dispel attempts etc.
Item has a CL of 9.
Scenario 1 : Crafter cannot make the item.
Scenario 2 : Crafter can make the item, he makes it with a caster level of 9th.
Scenario 3 : Crafter can make the item, he may set his caster level at any caster level between 9 (minimum to make the item) and 15 (his current caster level).
I think the real deal is this:
Scenario 4 : Crafter can make the item if he has the spell. He makes the item at his CL using the minimum CL of the spell he is casting or as high as his CL. If the item depends on CL for anything (like CL d6 damage, range, etc) then the CL effects item cost. Ignore CL of item in the books as it is only there to show bought item's CL.
Then you have the absurd reality of a an 11th level caster creating a staff with Miracle in it, with Miracle having a CL of 11, since you can't set a CL higher than your own level.
Not possible in 3.p or 3.5 rules, since the minimum would be 17th CL (unless you were a Ur-Priest or some other "cast 9th level spells at CL 9" class in which cast CL 9 for 9th level spells were fine.)
Item has a CL of 9.
Scenario 1 : Crafter cannot make the item.
Scenario 2 : Crafter can make the item, he makes it with a caster level of 9th.
Scenario 3 : Crafter can make the item, he may set his caster level at any caster level between 9 (minimum to make the item) and 15 (his current caster level).I think the real deal is this:
Scenario 4 : Crafter can make the item if he has the spell. He makes the item at his CL using the minimum CL of the spell he is casting or as high as his CL. If the item depends on CL for anything (like CL d6 damage, range, etc) then the CL effects item cost. Ignore CL of item in the books as it is only there to show bought item's CL.
Here's the problem with that, under the new rules, you don't need the spell. You can add +5 to the DC and ignore the spell requirement. So, if you don't use the CL as a limiting factor, a 3rd level wizard can make the Cloak of Etherealness at a DC of 5 + (CASTER LEVEL) of the item + 5 for ignoring the spell not being available. Now, they absolutely can't make it with a caster level of 5 (which was what was stated above that I was responding to originally, that it is impossible to ignore caster level, caster level is almost always the caster level required to cast the level of the spell involved). So, the DC is 5 + 15 + 5 = 25. 3rd level wizard, skill focus spellcraft and 18 int would have 3 + 3 + 3 + 4 = 13. With one more 3rd level wizard doing assist other, he'd have a +15 and could take 10 and make the Cloak at 3rd level. Very easily at 3rd level. Even if you count the CL not being high enough as a prerequisite, that's just another +5, making the DC 30. Add in a Guidance (on your next roll +1), Masterworkd tools (+2), and 1 more assistant (+2) and you got your take 10.
I think the CL needs to be enforced as a requirement, not a prerequisite, you can't make the item unless you are at that minimum caster level. Otherwise, magic items begin to proliferate, and you have characters making magic items vastly more powerful than their level should have. That causes power creep in the games, and makes it nearly impossible to judge CR.
I have some random tables I use for creating characters in my latest game, usually you get something appropriate to your level, but every once in awhile someone get's something really nice. I had someone roll at 5th level +4 Adamantine Breastplate (like 4 straight 98+ rolls on percentile dice). They are still using that armor at 9th level, and will continue on to 20th with it more than likely. At lower levels, it made it very hard to judge CR because the disparity between level and equipment. But, they player had a ball, even though the black dragon killed him eventually. So it was worth it. But that's one major out of whack item. There were a couple of slightly over level items as well. But if I had to worry about everyone having 3-4 overpowered items, and constantly creating more, it'd be a nightmare to get CR's right.
Then you have the absurd reality of a an 11th level caster creating a staff with Miracle in it, with Miracle having a CL of 11, since you can't set a CL higher than your own level.Not possible in 3.p or 3.5 rules, since the minimum would be 17th CL (unless you were a Ur-Priest or some other "cast 9th level spells at CL 9" class in which cast CL 9 for 9th level spells were fine.)
Ok, then what are we arguing about? You seem to be saying you have to meet the CL, but ignore the CL? Either you're ignoring the CL, or you're requiring them to be at a minimum the required CL to make the item. You can't argue both sides.
Not possible in 3.p or 3.5 rules, since the minimum would be 17th CL (unless you were a Ur-Priest or some other "cast 9th level spells at CL 9" class in which cast CL 9 for 9th level spells were fine.)Ok, then what are we arguing about? You seem to be saying you have to meet the CL, but ignore the CL? Either you're ignoring the CL, or you're requiring them to be at a minimum the required CL to make the item. You can't argue both sides.
I think what he's saying (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that you have to be capable of casting the spell in question. If you don't actually have access to the spell then you can do the +5 DC bypass trick, but you'd need to have 9th level spell slots (ie Wizard CL 17) to be able to handle that kind of power.
I definitely see where you're coming from MDT, and you're right in that adding a +5 to the DC for every prerequiste doesn't stop lower level casters creating high level items once you factor in all the possible bonuses. Restricting access to high level items by low level characters is essential to the game balance, setting CRs, awarding XP, etc.
That said however, it seems unreasonable for a number of fairly common or inexpensive items (stat boosters, pearls of power, sovereign glue) to require such a high caster level. Sovereign Glue is another good example in fact. It requires only a 2nd level spell, can be undone by Universal Solvent (CL3rd), and yet requires a 20th level caster to create? When I think of a 20th level caster, the last thing I imagine is them sitting around and making glue, especially glue that can be undone by a 3rd level caster with 25GP and an acid arrow scroll.
It may be that caster level is in fact an unavoidable requirement. If that's the case however, I think some of the caster levels for many items are WAY off the mark.
I think what he's saying (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that you have to be capable of casting the spell in question. If you don't actually have access to the spell then you can do the +5 DC bypass trick, but you'd need to have 9th level spell slots (ie Wizard CL 17) to be able to handle that kind of power.I definitely see where you're coming from MDT, and you're right in that adding a +5 to the DC for every prerequiste doesn't stop lower level casters creating high level items once you factor in all the possible bonuses. Restricting access to high level items by low level characters is essential to the game balance, setting CRs, awarding XP, etc.
That said however, it seems unreasonable for a number of fairly common or inexpensive items (stat boosters, pearls of power, sovereign glue) to require such a high caster level. Sovereign Glue is another good example in fact. It requires only a 2nd level spell, can be undone by Universal Solvent (CL3rd), and yet requires a 20th level caster to create? When I think of a 20th level caster, the last thing I imagine is them sitting around and making glue, especially glue that can be undone by a 3rd level caster with 25GP and an acid arrow scroll.
It may be that caster level is in fact an unavoidable requirement. If that's the case however, I think some of the caster levels for many items are WAY off the mark.
Ah,
Ok, I have no issue with the idea some CL's may be off. That's a GM thing to decide. I just don't think the rules support not using the CL as a minimum Caster Level. If the GM thinks he needs to adjust that CL, that's fine, but the CL shouldn't be tossed out.|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Ok, then what are we arguing about? You seem to be saying you have to meet the CL, but ignore the CL? Either you're ignoring the CL, or you're requiring them to be at a minimum the required CL to make the item. You can't argue both sides.
The CL listed in the item is only used to buy an item.
If you make an item, you set the CL:
1) The CL is limited (can't be lower) than the CL of the spell needed to make the item.
2) The CL can be lower than the default (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, etc) if you can cast the spell at a lower level (like Ur-Priest casting 9th level spells.)
3) The +5 DC can get around the need for the spell, but I'd make it a high chance to make a cursed item (not exactly RAW but was suggested in a nother thread as a good idea by James Jacobs iirc) if you don't have spell slots equal in level to the spell level.
So here are some examples using my reading of the rules + my interpretations of intent (especially related to the +5 DC rules.)
Examples:
Making a Pearl of Power 1st level, CL 1 is fine if you have 1st levels spells.
Making a Wand of Lightning bolt with the spell = CL 5.
Making a Wand of Lightning bolt without the spell = CL 5 if you have 3rd level slots at +5 DC.
Making a Wondrous item that requires a 3rd level spell that you have, ignore item CL, use your CL or higher since you have the spell.
Making a Wondrous item, 3rd level spell that you don't have, +5 DC and you must have 3rd level slots.
The CL listed in the item is only used to buy an item.If you make an item, you set the CL:
Could you please quote the text that describes this in regard to wondrous items? This changed between 3.5 and 3.p.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).
I can't find any reference to setting the CL based on the creator for wondrous items in 3.p.
Thanks, I kept reading the PRD version and trying to figure out why people were saying you could put any CL you wanted. I didn't realize it was different in 3.0/3.5. We'd always used it the way it is in 3.p. It never occured to me to go back and look at the 3.0/3.5 material to see it had changed without my realizing it.
But I am correct about CL's being a hard rule that you have to meet to make the item.
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
If the caster level is needed then why wasn't this mentioned? I can't find *anything* to back up what you're saying.
But I am correct about CL's being a hard rule that you have to meet to make the item.The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.If the caster level is needed then why wasn't this mentioned? I can't find *anything* to back up what you're saying.
As far as I've found, it's only noted in one place:
Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).
But I am correct about CL's being a hard rule that you have to meet to make the item.The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.If the caster level is needed then why wasn't this mentioned? I can't find *anything* to back up what you're saying.As far as I've found, it's only noted in one place:
Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).
Yep, that's the paragraph that keeps coming up in my mind. I don't think the authors considered Caster Level as a prerequisite. The wording there indicates that prerequisites are other things, but caster level isn't one of them, it's just have to have.
Yep, that's the paragraph that keeps coming up in my mind. I don't think the authors considered Caster Level as a prerequisite. The wording there indicates that prerequisites are other things, but caster level isn't one of them, it's just have to have.
It's interesting (though by no means conclusive) to note however that there's no mention of caster level being a prequisite (or requirement) in the actual section of the rules that has to do with creating items. In fact, have a look at this:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.
Again, not conclusive. The bolded section is generally used for scrolls and wands and such (hence there being different levels of Magic Missile wands available for instance). If I were looking strictly at the rules for creating items however, I don't see anything that stops me from making a Headband of Vast Intellect at 5th level.
Any Paizon's out there willing to drop by and give a clarification/confirmation? Pretty please?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Could you please quote the text that describes this in regard to wondrous items?
For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
I don't need to, you just did. That line with the fact that CL is never listed as a requirement/prereq (just like in 3.5 rules) means that the CL is set by the caster making the item.
In other words, if you have a Wand of Lightning Bolt you don't need to list the CL because it can only be one thing if not listed. But if you have a Wondrous item, you need to know the CL of the item. The CL it had when it was created.
It never occured to me to go back and look at the 3.0/3.5 material to see it had changed without my realizing it.
To me, the 3.5 Errata is now identical to the 3.p rules.
What caused trouble is that the 3.5 Errata was never slip-streamed into the SRD after the first pass.
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Any interpretation that relies on 3.5 rulings/errata was thrown out the window when item creation began using a Spellcraft/Craft check to succeed in PRPG. The system now is not the same, only vaguely similar. Drawing conclusions about the latter by looking at clarifications of the former has no merit, IMO.