I know Paizo released a full list of what would be in the Bestiary in the bonus bestiary pdf, but for some reason it slipped my mind when looking at it, and now that I have my pdf of the Bestiary, I have realized what I did not notice before.
The Pathfinder Bestiary does not include the variant stats for the different subtypes of the PC races. They include the three "deep" versions, ie: Drow (deep elf), Duerguar (deep dwarf), and Svirfneblin (deep gnome), but otherwise did not carry over the rest of the crew.
I really liked the Elves of Golarion book and how they fit the subtypes into their world, even if my mountain dwelling grey elf became a cliff diver for some reason when our game converted from 3.5 to Pathfinder, but not getting any Bestiary love wounds me :P
Are there any official conversions of the subraces that were present in the 3.5 book? Are all of the elves supposed to be +2 dex, +2 int, -2 con now? If there's nothing official yet, what are people's opinions of the stats for:
Wild Elf
Wood Elf
Grey Elf
Aquatic Elf
Forest Gnome
Tallfolk Halfling
That's probably not all of them, but you guys know what races I'm talking about.
I'm with Lazaro... don't miss subraces a bit. Paizo has a great supplement on elves that talks about all the different elf cultures and civilizations in Golarian, I know there is a similar thing for Forgotten Realms and Eberron. Sub-race type flavor belongs with the campaign setting more than the bestiary.
Edit: Seems like the biggest thing the subraces were used for wasn't for creating elf cultures but for players who wanted to make elves with various stat bonuses. If you want to let your players arbitrarily pick stats why not just open it up for all races and be done with it?
The only thing seperating a "wild" elf or "wood" elf from a "high" elf is now flavor text.
I was just wondering if that was going to be Paizo's official stance on the matter, or if they had to be cut for space. They spent time on making the Elves of Golarion book and made a clear, if only flavor text at the moment, division of how the different subraces act, so I was curious if they planned on making the subraces as unique as the back stories.
So far we've house ruled that the party wild elf is +2 dex, +2 wis, -2 int (in 3.5 it was +2 dex, -2 int), and my grey elf is +2 dex, +2 int, +2 wis, -2 str, -2 con (in 3.5 it was +2 dex, +2 int, -2 str, -2 con)
Personally I like the subraces were left out. An elf is an elf is an elf.
The only thing seperating a "wild" elf or "wood" elf from a "high" elf is now flavor text.
I agree 100% bout time that was done, an elf is an elf. I houseruled out elf subraces as anything other then culture and skin color out of my FR game long ago
Subraces should be mostly flavor anyway - I think things like stats should remain the same, but mostly cultural racial traits (like Dwarves' hatred for goblinoids) might be subject to change.
I was just wondering if that was going to be Paizo's official stance on the matter, or if they had to be cut for space.
Maybe a little of both? I know competition to get into the bestiary was pretty fierce. Most likely they felt it was a waste of space putting 6-7+ pages on creatures that were covered pretty well in the PHB.
An elf is not elf. Drow are not surface elves, wild elves are not aquatic elves. Bring back the forest gnome!
Gnome book comes in January but it's a Companion book (Golarian flavored).
An elf is not elf. Drow are not surface elves, wild elves are not aquatic elves. Bring back the forest gnome!
An elf is an elf. Drow are not elves any longer really but something new. Forest gnomes are fey, which fits and aquatic could be a templet and it works just as well
An elf is not elf. Drow are not surface elves, wild elves are not aquatic elves. Bring back the forest gnome!An elf is an elf. Drow are not elves any longer really but something new. Forest gnomes are fey, which fits and aquatic could be a templet and it works just as well
I'm usually pretty disappointed when I buy a product and a sizable percentage is rehash or only slight modifications of the standard races. Even DM's that are new to the game should have little problem balancing out a race variant they want to create. I'm also of the Elf is an Elf school of thought for the most part.
I've been asking, repeatedly, when able (consider this another plug Paizo Peeps) for Alternate Build stuff in the Advanced Player Guide. That includes Alternate Class builds, and Alternate Race Builds (Elemental Builds, Wild Builds, Aquatic Builds, etc). I'd be perfectly happy with some quick neat little templates, say, 1/4 per page, a paragraph of fluff and neat easy to read adjustments. They shouldn't take up much (For Aquatic template, add breath water and swim speed, reduce land speed by 10 feet and decrease str by two and increase dex by two as an example).
I know I can do these myself, but it's much less of a headache if the players have something official to look over instead of me having to do all the work.
I have to say I love the quick templates, they have saved me so much time and head ach of late have to love em. I would be behind this ideal
ya know stuff like forest, subterranean, fey , winged , centaur a, multi legged and such would be grand
Creative Director
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We decided relatively early to NOT include pages for halflings, humans, elves, and the like in the Bestiary. The Bestiary was to be and is first and foremost a monster book... and player races don't really have a place in a monster book. The core races are supported quite well by their entries in Chapter 2 of the core RPG, and we'll eventually have a 32 page support book for all of them in our Companion line (we've done elves already, dwarves should be out soon, and gnomes are coming up next). In those books we do talk a bit about racial variants, but they're not really anything different game-mechanics wise. Just as Golarion has 14 different ethnicities of humanity (such as Chelaxian, Vudran, Varisian, Taldan, etc.), there are different ethnicities for all of the demihuman races. Things like wild elves, gray elves, high elves, etc. But in Pathfinder, their racial modifiers and abilities are pretty much identical. We chose this route partially from customer feedback, but primarily because of our own preference. It's kind of stupid and more than a little racist, I think, to assign different abilities to different human ethnicities in the same way it's stupid to assign different abilities by gender. That's not the type of game we wanted to present to the world. And since we didn't detail different game stats for different types of humans, it made no sense to do something different for the demihumans.
Now that said, for drow, duergar, and svirfneblin... they're special cases. They've always been more "monstrous" than the core races, and when they were first created were meant to serve as NPCs or, more commonly, as antagonists or villains. They have additional powers and abilities over and above what a typical elf, dwarf, or gnome would have, and we can justifiably give them these abilities by assuming they'll be used mostly as monsters and not as PC races. But they're not merely subraces; they are very much their own races. That's why they're listed in the Bestiary under Drow, Duergar, and Svirfneblin, not like "Elf, Drow" or "Gnome, Svirfneblin."
I've been asking, repeatedly, when able (consider this another plug Paizo Peeps) for Alternate Build stuff in the Advanced Player Guide. That includes Alternate Class builds, and Alternate Race Builds (Elemental Builds, Wild Builds, Aquatic Builds, etc). I'd be perfectly happy with some quick neat little templates, say, 1/4 per page, a paragraph of fluff and neat easy to read adjustments. They shouldn't take up much (For Aquatic template, add breath water and swim speed, reduce land speed by 10 feet and decrease str by two and increase dex by two as an example).
I know I can do these myself, but it's much less of a headache if the players have something official to look over instead of me having to do all the work.
Yeah, the players argue less.
*whistles innocently*
We decided relatively early to NOT include pages for halflings, humans, elves, and the like in the Bestiary. The Bestiary was to be and is first and foremost a monster book... and player races don't really have a place in a monster book. The core races are supported quite well by their entries in Chapter 2 of the core RPG, and we'll eventually have a 32 page support book for all of them in our Companion line (we've done elves already, dwarves should be out soon, and gnomes are coming up next). In those books we do talk a bit about racial variants, but they're not really anything different game-mechanics wise. Just as Golarion has 14 different ethnicities of humanity (such as Chelaxian, Vudran, Varisian, Taldan, etc.), there are different ethnicities for all of the demihuman races. Things like wild elves, gray elves, high elves, etc. But in Pathfinder, their racial modifiers and abilities are pretty much identical. We chose this route partially from customer feedback, but primarily because of our own preference. It's kind of stupid and more than a little racist, I think, to assign different abilities to different human ethnicities in the same way it's stupid to assign different abilities by gender. That's not the type of game we wanted to present to the world. And since we didn't detail different game stats for different types of humans, it made no sense to do something different for the demihumans.
Now that said, for drow, duergar, and svirfneblin... they're special cases. They've always been more "monstrous" than the core races, and when they were first created were meant to serve as NPCs or, more commonly, as antagonists or villains. They have additional powers and abilities over and above what a typical elf, dwarf, or gnome would have, and we can justifiably give them these abilities by assuming they'll be used mostly as monsters and not as PC races. But they're not merely subraces; they are very much their own races. That's why they're listed in the Bestiary under Drow, Duergar, and Svirfneblin, not like...
:-) I like this attitude.
I know I can do these myself, but it's much less of a headache if the players have something official to look over instead of me having to do all the work.Yeah, the players argue less.
*whistles innocently*
Exactly...
I've been asking, repeatedly, when able (consider this another plug Paizo Peeps) for Alternate Build stuff in the Advanced Player Guide. That includes Alternate Class builds, and Alternate Race Builds (Elemental Builds, Wild Builds, Aquatic Builds, etc). I'd be perfectly happy with some quick neat little templates, say, 1/4 per page, a paragraph of fluff and neat easy to read adjustments. They shouldn't take up much (For Aquatic template, add breath water and swim speed, reduce land speed by 10 feet and decrease str by two and increase dex by two as an example).
I know I can do these myself, but it's much less of a headache if the players have something official to look over instead of me having to do all the work.
Umm... I hope not. I would be really disappointed if the APG was filled with stuff like this.
I'm with Lazaro... don't miss subraces a bit.
Yeah, put all those subraces in a fluff book of their own.
stuff
+1 :)
Umm... I hope not. I would be really disappointed if the APG was filled with stuff like this.I've been asking, repeatedly, when able (consider this another plug Paizo Peeps) for Alternate Build stuff in the Advanced Player Guide. That includes Alternate Class builds, and Alternate Race Builds (Elemental Builds, Wild Builds, Aquatic Builds, etc). I'd be perfectly happy with some quick neat little templates, say, 1/4 per page, a paragraph of fluff and neat easy to read adjustments. They shouldn't take up much (For Aquatic template, add breath water and swim speed, reduce land speed by 10 feet and decrease str by two and increase dex by two as an example).
I know I can do these myself, but it's much less of a headache if the players have something official to look over instead of me having to do all the work.
Two points, Dennis.
1) The book is not solely for your pleasure. All of us are customers, and every customer has different desires/needs.
2) I didn't ask for the book to be filled with stuff like this. I would like a chapter filled with stuff like this.
1) The book is not solely for your pleasure. All of us are customers, and every customer has different desires/needs.
Just expressing my opinion as you did... it is likewise not solely for your pleasure.
2) I didn't ask for the book to be filled with stuff like this. I would like a chapter filled with stuff like this.
When I say stuff like this I don't mean stuff identical to this.
1) The book is not solely for your pleasure. All of us are customers, and every customer has different desires/needs.Just expressing my opinion as you did... it is likewise not solely for your pleasure.
To me, the difference being I didn't ask for things you want to be removed, I only asked for things I'd like to be added. Honestly, I'd happily pay $60 for a AGP that's as thick as the core book. And I'd be happy if I only ended up using half of it, more than I usually got with a WoTC splatbook. And I'd know that whatever was in there I didn't like, there'd be someone out there that wanted it.
2) I didn't ask for the book to be filled with stuff like this. I would like a chapter filled with stuff like this.When I say stuff like this I don't mean stuff identical to this.
Then I don't know what you could have been referring to. When you quote my post and say 'I don't want stuff like this in the book', I don't see how I could take that to mean 'I don't want stuff like this, but, this stuff I guess is ok, but nothing like it'.
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Then I don't know what you could have been referring to. When you quote my post and say 'I don't want stuff like this in the book', I don't see how I could take that to mean 'I don't want stuff like this, but, this stuff I guess is ok, but nothing like it'.
Ignore the passive-aggressive, 'Oh, I didn't mean what I just very obviously said to you, and it's your fault you took it personally' defense. You feed them when you reply to them.
And I agree that options, like the 3.X Unearthed Arcana had in plenty, would be awesome, including alternate racial and class options. Taking it to the level of the 2E Player's Options books would, IMO, be a step too far in that direction, 'though.
I don't feel as if the sub-races are 'necessity', but I did enjoy playing one or two of them. I have to agree that the elven sub-races were indeed cultural, not ethnic.
However that can be handled by roleplay or even a minor bonus to a 'set of skills'(ex: woodelf - climb, swim, handle animal; greyelf - diplomacy, sense motive, profession/craft) if you really feel the need to be different. You wouldn't be able to use it in 'Society' play, but that's part of the charm of being able to take any character any where to any DM's table.
I don't know about golarion but in FR the elven sub-races where indeed ethnic groups. A wood elf in a nice suit still could not pass as a sun elf, nr a sun elf for a moon elf, nor could a sea elf pass at all for the other races. The skin tons among other things were very different
There is some real world precedent for actual physical differences based on ethnic derivation. That's not being racist, that's just stating that people of asian descent tend (as an average) to be shorter than people of the western european decent. By the same token, males tend (as an average) to be stronger than females. Neither is better than the other, although specific situations may find one or the other more advantageous (when fighting, bigger & stronger is usually better when all other things are equal, when food is in short supply, having less body mass is generally much better for survival).
Now, is it worth the effort though to add that into an abstract class/race system for a game? Depends on how much detail you want.
I agree personally with the above, most of the time, smaller bits can handle it, weapon proficiencies, skill bonuses, etc. There may be occasions though, like Drow vs Elves, where you need to differentiate. For example, if your catfolk are vastly different by clan (tiger vs lion vs cheetah), or if a race is highly differentiated by sex (a really good example would be Trolls/Trollops from Robert Asprin's Myth series. Trollops have good str, dex, and uber cha, while Trolls have uber str, good con, and negative cha).
In the end, it all comes down to what you need from a race for your game or game system. I'm sure we may eventually see some other related races for PathFinder (After all, Jason and James have stated repeatedly they want to do a bestiary every year or two, so that's lots of options right there).
I don't know about golarion but in FR the elven sub-races where indeed ethnic groups. A wood elf in a nice suit still could not pass as a sun elf, nr a sun elf for a moon elf, nor could a sea elf pass at all for the other races. The skin tons among other things were very differentAnd body builds. From what I remember wood elves were alot stockier and a little shorter than the primary elves. (forget what they were called in FR)
All elves in FR save the avariel were the same base height 5'-6'6" Avariels where from 5'2"-6'2"
STarting weight was
70 lbs Avariels
90 f0r sun, and moon elves
100 for sea, cooper and green elves
Nothing there that demands separate states for them, save maybe the avariel being winged and all
In Realms, the only elven races I felt needed seperate statistical changes were the Drow, the Avariel and the Aquatic Elves. But in offical books, each subrace had different ability modifiers and some racial abilities.The rest could have been covered by a single elf race write-up.
The sub-races in Realms were actually given different heights in Races of Faerun and the Player's Guide to Realms....if i recall Gold Elves were the tallest, with wild elves being the smallest surface elf subrace.
Your right on needless subrace stats, but even sea elves just needed some add on not whole new states
And the height came from races of faerun. All elves save the avariels have the same height. Drow have the same height but reversed with females being taller then males
To me, the difference being I didn't ask for things you want to be removed, I only asked for things I'd like to be added. Honestly, I'd happily pay $60 for a AGP that's as thick as the core book. And I'd be happy if I only ended up using half of it, more than I usually got with a WoTC splatbook. And I'd know that whatever was in there I didn't like, there'd be someone out there that wanted it.1) The book is not solely for your pleasure. All of us are customers, and every customer has different desires/needs.Just expressing my opinion as you did... it is likewise not solely for your pleasure.
He didn't ask that anything be 'removed' either. He asked that it not be added in the first place. And since they are doing the race companions that James mentioned, it isn't needed in the APG. It would be repetitive and waste valuable space.
He didn't ask that anything be 'removed' either. He asked that it not be added in the first place. And since they are doing the race companions that James mentioned, it isn't needed in the APG. It would be repetitive and waste valuable space.To me, the difference being I didn't ask for things you want to be removed, I only asked for things I'd like to be added. Honestly, I'd happily pay $60 for a AGP that's as thick as the core book. And I'd be happy if I only ended up using half of it, more than I usually got with a WoTC splatbook. And I'd know that whatever was in there I didn't like, there'd be someone out there that wanted it.1) The book is not solely for your pleasure. All of us are customers, and every customer has different desires/needs.Just expressing my opinion as you did... it is likewise not solely for your pleasure.
A) Agreed, I should have said 'The difference being, I didn't ask for your requests to not be honored while mine are listened to'. Better?
B) Not all of us use Golarian. I don't do Golarian, and those race companions are all targeted at races in Golarian. I would like setting neutral information without having to pick up a dozen books that have 80% of the information needing to be altered. It would not be a waste of valuable space. Unless James also mentioned that the Race Companions would be Non-Golarian specific, which was not what I saw in his posts.
Will have to recheck by books. I recall Drow being markedly shorter than other elves with males averaging around 5'.-Weylin
You are correct sir, they use PHB ht/wt charts so are smaller then other elves
Never had a drow pc and it slipped my mind. Drow do however have one of the coolist gods in FR, shes the non evil on e:)
Never had a drow pc and it slipped my mind. Drow do however have one of the coolist gods in FR, shes the non evil on e:)
I always import her into my universe if Drow are present. :)
unfortunately, in 4th edition Realms she (Eilistraee) is now a dead god. Like many other things I like about that world.Never had a drow pc and it slipped my mind. Drow do however have one of the coolist gods in FR, shes the non evil on e:)I always import her into my universe if Drow are present. :)
Beats Weylin with a dead drow just for speaking them words
MDT she is a most awesome goddess
MDT she is a most awesome goddess
The fact that she prefers to be naked, seemed to help. :)
I do not know what madness you speak, weylin but never happened.
Loved the whole story behind Eilistraee. I dont think it was a story they ever should have resolved, especially not how it was resolved.
Was more than a little annoyed when she got decapitated and they redeeemed some of the drow back into the Ilythiir they were before Lolth.
True, if they redeemed some of the dark elves back to Ilythiir, should she not have come back with them? :(