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CoT Major disappointment


Council of Thieves

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So far, for me at least, CoT has been a major disappointment.

Spoiler:
First off let me say, we have had three APs in a row with pocket dimensions. Second Darkness (hated it), Legacy of Fire (why was this even a pocket dimesnion) and now asmodean knot.

Soooo just stop with the pocket dimesnions.

second, cant get the books out in time or provide enough work in the books to give a weekly adventure session until the next book comes out?

Why have a subscription of we cant play weekly?

What lies in dust set back to Novemeber now? Lame.

PErhaps hire some more writers (especially ones that don't use the same old tired pocket dimensions)

Id like to see more adventure here from now on and less stories, monsters that have nothing todoand wont fit in a story line (why put a CR 11 monster in a book meant for levels 3-5?)

Stop wasting space and give us adventure.

One last peice of advice, do backwards planning. Write 6of 6 first. The 5 of 6 and then 4 of 6 and so on. It will give better continuity and forshadowing.

As it were we have had to totally go off the AP just to get enough to do for a weekly session.

And btw the play was lame and a huge waste of pages.

Added spoiler tags.--Joshua J. Frost

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well to each there own I suppose I think the play is awesome and more than worth the pages.

Andoran

Pathfinder Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

It takes us over a year to get through one AP so the pacing works well for our group. The supplementary material is the stuff that keeps me coming back for more. I find it extremely useful in adding substance to the world.

Contributor

Maybe you'll be more satisfied with Kingmaker. As far as I know, there aren't any pocket dimensions, and to date sounds like the most unique of the APs.

Taldor

I'm curious about when your group started Council of Thieves and how long an average session is. I'm running Curse of the Crimson Throne for the first time and I'm wondering if I might need to slow down the pacing a bit. It seems like we're more than halfway through the first volume after only three sessions(3-4 hours each session).

I'm not sure this is a problem with the Adventure Paths so much as a matter of what groups tend to do in them. I prefer tabletop games because there's a greater willingness to roleplay, but running CotCT online has toned that down a bit. Not completely, but there are a lot of long silences whenever the group is expected to talk to NPCs.


Perhaps wait until a couple chapters are actually out before starting to run the AP? That way you have a couple "buffered", as it were.

The rest of your post was just your subjective opinion. I'm not saying your wrong, just that you might just be speaking for yourself.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber

I agree with you on a few points; the pocket dimension thing has gotta stop. And while I'm also frustrated by having to wait another month for the next adventure, that has nothing to do with the quality of the product itself (and will be a moot point soon). Lastly, while I'm also not a huge fan of the fiction - or "the play" - I do very much like most of the other support articles. The tiefling article in Bastards was great, for example.

One thing I totally disagree with you on is that CoT lacks foreshadowing; compared to LoF, which kept DMs almost as much in the dark as players, I think the authors have done an excellent job with foreshadowing. You get the entire plotline and history in Bastards, a detailed description of each adventure, and plenty of recurring characters. What more do you want?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

A bit of advice - I *always* wait until the entire AP is released before I run it, so I can have a full and clear view of how everything develops. Just so I don't kill off a minor NPC in episode 1 just to learn that he is very important in the finale :)

Contributor

Generic Villain wrote:


...compared to LoF, which kept DMs almost as much in the dark as players, I think the authors have done an excellent job with foreshadowing. You get the entire plotline and history in Bastards, a detailed description of each adventure, and plenty of recurring characters.

Are you referring to the Campaign Outline? Because to be fair, LoF had the entire plot and detailed descriptions of each adventure, too (when developing the history and writing the adventure summaries for the Council of Thieves Campaign Outline, I was told by Wes to refer to LoF's Campaign Outline found in PF#19 for voice/style). And I'm pretty sure earlier APs, at least some, had the adventure summaries (not sure about the page-long history, though...).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting Subscriber
Hank Woon wrote:


Are you referring to the Campaign Outline? Because to be fair, LoF had the entire plot and detailed descriptions of each adventure, too (when developing the history and writing the adventure summaries for the Council of Thieves Campaign Outline, I was told by Wes to refer to LoF's Campaign Outline found in PF#19 for voice/style). And I'm pretty sure earlier APs, at least some, had the adventure summaries (not sure about the page-long history, though...).

I suppose I was overly harsh there, but I did have a few problems with LoF; the lack on info on the Templars of the Five Winds until the very end, for example. Also, the faulty foreshadowing such as rubies gained from the Captain of the Sunset Ship at the end of Jackal's Price (that were never followed through on). It felt, to me, that the DM waited along with the players to find out how the story would unfold.


Pendagast wrote:

So far, for me at least, CoT has been a major disappointment.

First off let me say, we have had three APs in a row with pocket dimensions. Second Darkness (hated it), Legacy of Fire (why was this even a pocket dimesnion) and now asmodean knot.

Soooo just stop with the pocket dimesnions.

second, cant get the books out in time or provide enough work in the books to give a weekly adventure session until the next book comes out?

Why have a subscription of we cant play weekly?

What lies in dust set back to Novemeber now? Lame.

PErhaps hire some more writers (especially ones that don't use the same old tired pocket dimensions)

Id like to see more adventure here from now on and less stories, monsters that have nothing todoand wont fit in a story line (why put a CR 11 monster in a book meant for levels 3-5?)

Stop wasting space and give us adventure.

One last peice of advice, do backwards planning. Write 6of 6 first. The 5 of 6 and then 4 of 6 and so on. It will give better continuity and forshadowing.

As it were we have had to totally go off the AP just to get enough to do for a weekly session.

And btw the play was lame and a huge waste of pages.

As to lateness of products, it has been said on another thread that the current problem is lack of editor hours (*link*)

James Jacobs wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
"We don't have the manpower?" You can't spare an intern fifteen minutes to cut and paste some pages from Illustrator into a new Acrobat document and post it in the web store? "It's not the way we do things" sure, of course, that is a perfectly valid argument against it and I won't quibble the point any further, but the lack of manpower argument is a little... weak.

1) We don't currently have any interns. We DID just interview two potentials, though.

2) There's a LOT more to it than "cut and paste." We'd want to do another edit pass to try to catch errors that crept into print, for one. We'd certainly want to update the rules to work with the PFRPG, and in some cases that will cause word flow to change which might need us to re-layout the entire document. We'd have to actually CREATE the PDFs and bookmark them (which isn't as easy as it sounds). We'd have to write code on our web page to handle the sale and organization of the product since it's not something we currently offer. We'd have to think about how putting up parts of Pathfinder piecemeal would impact sales of Pathfinder in print and in PDF. We'd have to figure out how these PDFs would fit into a subscription format, because I guarantee you that if they're not part of a regular subscription that folks will want a new subscription service, and THOSE aren't easy to set up. And that's just issues I came up with off the top of my head.

3) We're incredibly behind on our schedule right now, and adding fifteen minutes here and ten minutes there is the death of a thousand cuts—I'm more interested in getting the editorial department recovered from the convention season, moving the office, and producing an extra 1,000 pages of content than I am in piling on yet more responsibilities and tasks for them.

I'm not just trying to be difficult or lazy or contradictory. Generally, when I say we can't/won't do something, there's a few dozen good reasons why I said that.

Conceivably the editor overstretch might be spilling over into other areas of production too...

As to the Larazod play it seems to me to have been an experiment which has polarised posters into two groups - those (such as yourself) who are posting that they absolutely hate it and consider it a pointless waste of space, and others such as Kevin Mack who say that they love it.


Gorbacz wrote:
A bit of advice - I *always* wait until the entire AP is released before I run it, so I can have a full and clear view of how everything develops. Just so I don't kill off a minor NPC in episode 1 just to learn that he is very important in the finale :)

Yea I considered it,

We as a PF group started in second darkness as a Beta Play test group, in response to posts like, you cant doa half orc wizard and fighters still stink etc et al.

When I first began purchasing APs, Three of second darkness were already out.
We ended up abandoning second darkness, felt our characters were too powerful and whooped to easily. Also felt last enstallment of second darkness betrayed the rest of the AP and was hokey.

Sooo, we took a little break and waited until LoF came out (which I disagree I think the DM knew very much what was comming in LoF)

We ended up dying in the house of the beast and did so much work to get there, didnt really want to make new charatersto finish it(so we basically abandoned LOF.

We started playing Cot RIGHT when It came out (while i agree the tiefling article is waaaay cool, I just dont feel the place for it is IN the AP. This feels likes a dragon article. Like good ole issue 100 with the death master.

Im buying an adventure path and I want 19.99 OF AP.

If you are going to put new monsters IN the AP those monsters should have to do something WITH the AP. a CR11 Death knight (grave knight v.death knight is that an OGL thing?) is in the wrong mag when you characters are 5th level and it doesnt fit anywhere in the story line. So save it for another mag.

Cot issue 1 was way too short on the adventure part which is most of the problem. We had to do way too much improv todo weekly meetings (which for us average 4-6 hours)
We are very battle-mapp-happy, so a good fight or series of fights with a few rooms (like the Bastrards fight) can take us 1-2 sessions.

In our case, the bastards and the after math weredone in 4 hours (one session)

We do not waste alot of time with chit chat, hoo ha, touch foot ball or explainations about what shade of blue the bard is wearing, there is no out of game chat or you just get booted.

So thats 4 hours of straight game play.

so BoE for us went session 1 took us up to but not including the rescue sequence.

Spoiler:
Session 2 took us through the rescue and into hunting for white chin.

Session 3 white chin

Session 4 looking for another group of bandits and getting jumped by a shadow mastif.

Session 5 learning that we did not defeat the actual white chin but apretending lieutennat and then defeating the actual white chin (who turned out to be a barghest)

Session 6 fuddling around with treasure, outffiting the group with better stuff and traveling tothe whispering woods (where the elf ranger is from to purchase a suit of elven chain mail for the barbarian andso the elf could visit with family.

As you can read most of those sessions were improv and not IN the BoE book.

Why were the set peices cut btw?

Spoiler:
The second book six fold trail took us three sessions to get through, mostly because we skipped the play,but we were all already 4th level (from pussy footing around waiting for book two to come out) so we picked up with the mayors banquet.

We would have been fine if What lies in dust didnt get pushed back amonth.

We did discuss buying the Rise of the runelords AP to play and wait for CoT to come out, In it's entireity, But #1 all of RotRL isnt available for purchase now, and CoT was the first ALL Pathfinder AP and wereally wanted to play it with our new non beta PCs.

And once more Amen to Pocket dimesnions, no more!

Added spoiler tags.--Joshua J. Frost


Pendagast:
I hope that another thread on this forum, specifically about set pieces, should answer your questions as to why set pieces were cut: *click here for link*


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have an elegant disproof of Pendagast's post, which unfortunately will not fit in this margin.


Taliesin Hoyle wrote:

I have an elegant disproof of Pendagast's post, which unfortunately will not fit in this margin.

How can you 'disprove' someone's opinions? While you may not agree with them, you can't really deny that is how he (and apparently his group) feel about things.

I personally DO wait until all of the supplements are out before starting an AP so that I can add in foreshadowing, deeper role-playing around those areas and characters that will have the most impact on the campaign, and integrate the players PCs into the world. I get the impression from his description of his group that I would not be adding value to their game experience if I were the DM. That's fine, to each their own.

As a result of being willing to wait, the delay isn't a big deal to me or my group. We take longer than a month to play through a module, so even we did start before they all came out we wouldn't have an issue.

I will concede that the delay is worrisome in that it could mean that in stretching themselves beyond their core mission (the APs) into the realm of game mechanics (Pathfinder system) that they are hurting their ability to do APs. I really hope that isn't the case and this is a one time thing. Frankly, they should have delayed the system rather than APs... but who knows if that was even a choice.

For what it is worth, I am fine with pocket dimensions and would not have an issue with them being used in each and every AP. However, I do think some care needs to be taken to make sure that PCs can sell, buy and repair things. I see this as a big issue with a long stretch of LoF, for example.

Sean Mahoney

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Taliesin Hoyle wrote:

I have an elegant disproof of Pendagast's post, which unfortunately will not fit in this margin.

i nod in recognition of Fermat's brilliance...

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The things is blaming Paizo for delays when we don't know the cause of the delays seems somewhat rash I seem to recall them mentioning something about problems at the printers but that could be anything from a build-up of Paizo products due to the rulebook and Bestiary to over orders from dozens of different companies to something at the printers breaking down so not being able to operate at full capacity.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The delays are unfortunate and distressing to me, trust me, since when Pathifnder gets off schedule a LOT of annoying stuff starts happening at Paizo with various ripple effects. Unfortunately, these delays were more or less impossible to avoid; the cause was the tripple-whammy of us putting out the RPG & Bestiary (an extra 1,000 pages on top of everything else) and moving the office all during the busiest time of the year for us (convention season).

We're working as fast as we can to get things back on schedule. That basically means working 60–80 hour weeks for me, taking 2 or 3 days off a month. Been doing that for several months now, in fact... first to help get the two huge rulebooks done and now to get Pathfinder caught up again. Frankly, it's starting to get to the point where Pathfinder's gonna crash and burn when the editor in chief has a nervous breakdown and flees into the wilds of Alaska...

Seriously though... at this point it looks like November or maybe December we'll be back on schedule. We've got two interns starting next week, and we've hired a new editor/developer who starts in a few more weeks, so that'll help too.

As for the other complaints... what can I say. Can't please everyone. The comment about pocket dimensions is worth noting though... we HAVE used them a lot, in retrospect. I'll make sure that the authors start looking for other things to do with their dungeons... there probably won't be any of these in Kingmaker or Serpent's Skull in any event.

In any event... Pathfinder's slipped schedule is probably the thing at Paizo I'm the most ashamed about, and the panic attacks and stress it causes me are enough punishment... so if I don't post again to this thread rest assured it's not because I'm ignoring the complaints... it's just that threads like these are salt in the wound, sort of.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
As for the other complaints... what can I say. Can't please everyone. The comment about pocket dimensions is worth noting though... we HAVE used them a lot, in retrospect. I'll make sure that the authors start looking for other things to do with their dungeons... there probably won't be any of these in Kingmaker or Serpent's Skull in any event.

Serpent's Skull? Has any information been provided about that somewhere? :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Seriously though... at this point it looks like November or maybe December we'll be back on schedule. We've got two interns starting next week, and we've hired a new editor/developer who starts in a few more weeks, so that'll help too.

We will stop pouring salt into your wounds James when you reveal to us WHO are you hiring. Names, Herr Jakobs, lest we unleash half-dragon century worms...


Steve Geddes wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
As for the other complaints... what can I say. Can't please everyone. The comment about pocket dimensions is worth noting though... we HAVE used them a lot, in retrospect. I'll make sure that the authors start looking for other things to do with their dungeons... there probably won't be any of these in Kingmaker or Serpent's Skull in any event.
Serpent's Skull? Has any information been provided about that somewhere? :)

Race to a ruin in the Mwangi expanse, heavy on the factions, with Aspis and Pathfinders playing a big part, probably have the Serpent folk in there, the heroes may have to make a Eando Kline type decision.

Taldor

On the contrast, you have a group like mine, we play once a week, from 7pm-11pm, although sometimes we run till about midnight, I got the group together in February running RotR, and we are just now getting into the start of the skinsaw murders. What's that you say, you've been playing almost a year, and you've run one AP. Yup, we focus on roleplaying so there's lots of interaction with NPCs and developing characters (hilarious stuff, like when the Sorcerer was trying to develop a love interest in Ameiko, and she was interested then during the fight in the glassworks as Tsuto made his escape the PCs didn't finish exploring the glassworks and left Ameiko tied up for hours in the other room until guards that they had gotten a random NPC to get found her and untied her, when she learned that she had been left tied up so that he could chase down her brother, it shoved him into the friend zone, now he's been courting Rynshin, but has failed every single sense motive roll he's ever made, and he has like a +12 to sense motive but whenever he rolls for her he rolls a 1-3, so even though he is actually succeeding by not really being pursuant but more casually flirtatious, he has no idea that he's had any success at all)

Taldor

It sounds to me like your group focuses more on combat and roleplaying that revolves around combat and also grind through combat encounters, which is why the APs seem so dreadfully short. When you fill in space from the AP it sounds like you fill it with combat, Also complaining that its to short while at the same time skipping content from said AP doesn't strike you as just a little silly, I'm not saying your concern isn't valid, just that it's a bit silly.

As for the APs I never considered them just APs, I mean yeah it has an arcing story in it. But seriously, it's a monthly magazine meant to replace dragon & dungeon since those are no longer being made print form. It's half AP and half magazine, so there is lots of stuff in there that doesn't have anything to do with the AP necessarily, the article on Desna in AP 2, you might not have any players playing a desnan priest which means it's only useful because the town NPC worships desna, other than that it has nothing to do with the AP, the fiction has nothing to do with the AP. I'm actually quite happy with the monsters that are in the APs, I don't consider a monster I can't use yet an actual waste of space, but more of a starting point for an encounter later.

For example, I hate the goblin snake, hate hate hate hate the goblin snake, silliest monster I've ever seen. But that hate spurred me on to actually do something interesting with it to make it less annoying and pathetic. So when the PCs left Gogmurt alive but every other goblin in thistletop had been slaughtered (including non-combatant women and children) he sold his soul to devils for revenge, now normally devils wouldn't even bother with him for his soul since as evil as he was, it was gonna go to them anyways, so instead they traded for his body, he would be given what he needed for revenge, but he needed to act quickly while at the same time desecrating his body with runes and dark speech which were killing him anyways if he didn't seek revenge immediately. When his body died he would live on, soul and all, but it would be in a new form with no real memories of his previous life. When the PCs killed him they watched as a few rounds later his body writhed and his head and spine ripped free from his body and slithered off into the thistle. Basically the Devils used him to create goblin snakes as a way to increase suffering in the mortal world.

Paizo Employee CEO

Charles Evans 25 wrote:
As to lateness of products, it has been said on another thread that the current problem is lack of editor hours

Which is in the process of being fixed. New editor hired. They start at the beginning of November!

-Lisa


James Jacobs wrote:
In any event... Pathfinder's slipped schedule is probably the thing at Paizo I'm the most ashamed about, and the panic attacks and stress it causes me are enough punishment... so if I don't post again to this thread rest assured it's not because I'm ignoring the complaints... it's just that threads like these are salt in the wound, sort of.

James, please don't rush anything out. I think most of us prefer quality products than rushed-out ones. I had a bad experience with WotC's recent Dungeon adventure path (Scales of War) which was obviously very rushed out and thus full of mistakes and contradictions - actually that's one of the reasons I got on the Pathfinder bandwagon, so I really don't want to experience the same thing all over again. I enjoyed The Bastards of Erebus, which is heads and shoulders above what Dungeon churns out these days, and hope that the future Pathfinder volumes will be even more awesome.


Pendagast wrote:
We did discuss buying the Rise of the runelords AP to play and wait for CoT to come out, In it's entireity, But #1 all of RotRL isnt available for purchase now, and CoT was the first ALL Pathfinder AP and wereally wanted to play it with our new non beta PCs.

I would also like to run that, but alas it's out of print. I really need a print copy in order to enjoy and actually run an adventure. Any chance Rise of the Runelords would be reprinted? That would be great!

Osirion

I don't know of another company that you'll get the CEO to come out and explain a delay and tell you of the cure.

Thank you, Lisa. And thank you Paizo for doing it right and even close to on time.

I've seen too many other companies that either never get out their product on time or rush it out the door all half-finished. It is very refreshing to deal with a company that for the most part has done neither.

And once you see daylight at the end of the catch-up tunnel. Let James have a vacation and a few weekends. Burnout is a terrible thing.

Taldor

James Jacobs wrote:


Seriously though... at this point it looks like November or maybe December we'll be back on schedule. We've got two interns starting next week, and we've hired a new editor/developer who starts in a few more weeks, so that'll help too.

Still hiring editors? I'm willing to relocate from Florida if it will help Paizo get back on track. My bachelor's degree isn't doing me much good here anyway.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think it depends on the group on style of play. Our groups tend to take longer than the avg one to get through things.

As for the content of the AP's I like them just the way they are. I don't like everything in them always but thats ok cause often I like most of the support stuff. Thats a big reason why I buy the AP's monthly. If I only bought them as a adventure i doubt I would subscribe since we wouldn't get through two of them a year and I would have no need for them all then.

I imagine more people fall into the group than finishing them to fast but maybe not. I think paizo does them the way they do to insure the maxium number of people buy them every month. This way you can buy it for the adventure or the support stuff.

As for the set pieces they was dropped due to several problems with them. James had a post about it in one of the other threads forget where off hand, explaining the reasons.


encorus wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
We did discuss buying the Rise of the runelords AP to play and wait for CoT to come out, In it's entireity, But #1 all of RotRL isnt available for purchase now, and CoT was the first ALL Pathfinder AP and wereally wanted to play it with our new non beta PCs.
I would also like to run that, but alas it's out of print. I really need a print copy in order to enjoy and actually run an adventure. Any chance Rise of the Runelords would be reprinted? That would be great!

I just chased down Rise of the Runelords and got it for less than cover price to boot. You can pick up most of it here at Paizo and grab the leftovers from Amazon. Or Abebooks.

From what I've read so far it's well worth the effort of converting. I love Burnt Offerings, maybe my favorite 1-3 level module. I've only started on Skinsaw murders and it's great so far. I am of course anxious to get to Hook Mountain Massacre ;)

Taldor

Dennis da Ogre wrote:
encorus wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
We did discuss buying the Rise of the runelords AP to play and wait for CoT to come out, In it's entireity, But #1 all of RotRL isnt available for purchase now, and CoT was the first ALL Pathfinder AP and wereally wanted to play it with our new non beta PCs.
I would also like to run that, but alas it's out of print. I really need a print copy in order to enjoy and actually run an adventure. Any chance Rise of the Runelords would be reprinted? That would be great!

I just chased down Rise of the Runelords and got it for less than cover price to boot. You can pick up most of it here at Paizo and grab the leftovers from Amazon. Or Abebooks.

From what I've read so far it's well worth the effort of converting. I love Burnt Offerings, maybe my favorite 1-3 level module. I've only started on Skinsaw murders and it's great so far. I am of course anxious to get to Hook Mountain Massacre ;)

Okay damnit Ogre, I'm beginning to think we're the same damn person, like we're really test tube clones in an experiment to see if human behavior is genetic, because we tend to think alike in our gaming, and now I learn you're about the exact same point in running rise of the runelords as I am and enjoying it the exact same way I am, yeesh.


I have an outstanding order with Amazon for Burnt Offerings for over a month now and it never ships. Also other volumes of Rise of the Runelords that were listed as in stock (with quantity of 4 or 5) when I placed my order never shipped (beats me why; I was quite furious) and now are out of stock.

Cheliax

You are entitled to your opinions about each AP, but personally, CoT is my group's favorite since RotRL. I guess one difference for us is that we have all been theater/improv people at some point in our lives and the sheer amount of the adventures that is left up to the PC's actions is the cause of a major geek-out.

Since your party likes combat so much, you could add in your own little "set-piece adventures" to hold them over until the next book comes out. Instead of giving story XP just convert that into a side-quest.

Taldor

Can I make a request? Enough with the story experience. Pcs are getting thousands of xp for simply following the story. What is a character gains a level? A wizard won't suddenly learn new spells because he survived a party or fled from some hellknights instead of fighting them. A fighter won't learn some new maneuvers because he found a secret door. Why can't the characters gain their experience from combat?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Mr. Slaad wrote:
Can I make a request? Enough with the story experience. Pcs are getting thousands of xp for simply following the story. What is a character gains a level? A wizard won't suddenly learn new spells because he survived a party or fled from some hellknights instead of fighting them. A fighter won't learn some new maneuvers because he found a secret door. Why can't the characters gain their experience from combat?

You are, of course, welcome to not award XP for story elements, but that's something that we deliberately built into the PRPG. Not every encounter can or should be something that you should be forced to resort to combat to solve, and if you DON'T have a combat encounter but resolve the encounter, you should still gain XP. Especially since not all character classes are built to be combat machines. Some excel at puzzles or traps or roleplaying encounters or support roles where they never actually make an attack roll; should those classes be penalized by removing support for encounters tailored to give them a chance to shine? And since the primary strength of an AP is the story (otherwise, we'd just be making bank printing a series of MUCH easier to write and edit unconnected encounters), doesn't it make sense to award the PCs for taking part in and/or encouraging the development of the story?

That said, there's probably too many story awards in "Bastards of Erebus." It being the first PRPG game we did, and because the adventure was written with what turned out to be the wrong set of assumptions for XP awards, we may have erred on the generous side of XP awards.

But that doesn't mean story awards are going to go away; they're here to stay at some level. If they annoy you, just don't hand them out. Throw in a few extra combats to make up for the XP loss and you're good to go.


encorus wrote:
I have an outstanding order with Amazon for Burnt Offerings for over a month now and it never ships. Also other volumes of Rise of the Runelords that were listed as in stock (with quantity of 4 or 5) when I placed my order never shipped (beats me why; I was quite furious) and now are out of stock.

Hrm... just checked Abebooks and the only copies of Burnt they have are crazy expensive. You might check back there occasionally, I got the whole series for a reasonable price (less than cover). Maybe I got the last few reasonably priced copies?


Dennis da Ogre wrote:
encorus wrote:
I have an outstanding order with Amazon for Burnt Offerings for over a month now and it never ships. Also other volumes of Rise of the Runelords that were listed as in stock (with quantity of 4 or 5) when I placed my order never shipped (beats me why; I was quite furious) and now are out of stock.
Hrm... just checked Abebooks and the only copies of Burnt they have are crazy expensive. You might check back there occasionally, I got the whole series for a reasonable price (less than cover). Maybe I got the last few reasonably priced copies?

You must have gotten lucky.... I tried to find Burnt Offerings this past weekend, and every copy I could find anywhere on the net was ridiculous.

Checking ebay frequently may be an option?

(or buy the pdf - though I do prefer the print copies myself)

Taldor

Lisa Stevens wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
As to lateness of products, it has been said on another thread that the current problem is lack of editor hours

Which is in the process of being fixed. New editor hired. They start at the beginning of November!

-Lisa

Hmm... new editor (singular) hired. They (plural) start [...]

O_o

Did you guys hire Eddie Brock / Venom?

:P

For those who do not know Eddie Brock, I find that this choice would actually be quite logical for Paizo (see bio, below)

:P

===================================

From the Wiki: As a child, Edward Allan Charles Brock is raised in a Roman Catholic household in San Francisco, his mother dead due to complications of his birth. Eddie's father is shown to be loving but left cold and uneffectionate because of the death of his wife. Eddie constantly attempts to obtain his father's approval, though even after excelling in school, he only receives half-hearted encouragements. Though exceptional in athletics, Brock switches his major in college to journalism after reading an article on the Watergate scandal. Upon graduating, he moves to New York City and as a member of the Associated Press, he obtains a job as a journalist for the Daily Globe. He proves himself to be highly talented, though even this does not get his father's approval. He eventually marries Anne Weying, who is attracted by his wit and gentility.

PDK's added bit:

After being approached by Paizo Publishing for the position of editor, his father finally gives him his full approval. Eddie's tears of joy cause the resurrection of Ben Parker, who in turn gives Peter Parker his full approval as well. Eddie wins back the Venom symbiote on eBay, and after donning the suit, proceeds to pull double shifts every day at Paizo Publishing for the next 12 years (turns out that the Venom symbiote can be satiated forever by one single Norwescon fat gamer lady, and without the constant hunger, the symbiote's other talents can now be fully explored). Paizo Publishing now rolling in gold, crime rates in the United States decline rapidly, and Peter Parker finds himself with a lot of extra time to devote to fix the whole Mephisto fiasco, so he flies to Renton to ask his old friend Eddie some well earned Roman Catholic advice. The two old friends find their answers on Mount Rainier, after a two-day hike, in the form of two badly burning bushes. Turns out that there are better things than MJ out there. With their answers firmly grasped in their hands, they head to the ER for some well deserved anti-venereal treatment.

Fin.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Seabyrn wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
encorus wrote:
I have an outstanding order with Amazon for Burnt Offerings for over a month now and it never ships. Also other volumes of Rise of the Runelords that were listed as in stock (with quantity of 4 or 5) when I placed my order never shipped (beats me why; I was quite furious) and now are out of stock.
Hrm... just checked Abebooks and the only copies of Burnt they have are crazy expensive. You might check back there occasionally, I got the whole series for a reasonable price (less than cover). Maybe I got the last few reasonably priced copies?

You must have gotten lucky.... I tried to find Burnt Offerings this past weekend, and every copy I could find anywhere on the net was ridiculous.

Checking ebay frequently may be an option?

(or buy the pdf - though I do prefer the print copies myself)

Not sure if the local store will do mail order. But you can try calling Fantasy shops Saint Louis MO and asking them. I know their maplewood store still has issues 2, 5 and 6 on the shelf. Not sure about the other stores. Or they did recently.

Paizo Employee CEO

Airhead wrote:
And once you see daylight at the end of the catch-up tunnel. Let James have a vacation and a few weekends. Burnout is a terrible thing.

A nice long vacation for James is pretty much the top of my wish list for the next half year.

-Lisa

Paizo Employee CEO

Warforged Gardener wrote:
Still hiring editors? I'm willing to relocate from Florida if it will help Paizo get back on track. My bachelor's degree isn't doing me much good here anyway.

Nope, the new hire will be here in a few weeks, so everything should be good. We also have two new interns starting on Thursday, so help is on the way! But thanks for volunteering!

-Lisa


Lisa Stevens wrote:
Warforged Gardener wrote:
Still hiring editors? I'm willing to relocate from Florida if it will help Paizo get back on track. My bachelor's degree isn't doing me much good here anyway.

Nope, the new hire will be here in a few weeks, so everything should be good. We also have two new interns starting on Thursday, so help is on the way! But thanks for volunteering!

-Lisa

Is the new hire currently moving from Eastern Europe?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Modules Subscriber
encorus wrote:


James, please don't rush anything out. I think most of us prefer quality products than rushed-out ones.

+1

Stefan


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:
Warforged Gardener wrote:
Still hiring editors? I'm willing to relocate from Florida if it will help Paizo get back on track. My bachelor's degree isn't doing me much good here anyway.

Nope, the new hire will be here in a few weeks, so everything should be good. We also have two new interns starting on Thursday, so help is on the way! But thanks for volunteering!

-Lisa

Is the new hire currently moving from Eastern Europe?

Well, moving by foot from, say, New England to Washington should take a few weeks as well.

Stefan

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Lisa Stevens wrote:
Airhead wrote:
And once you see daylight at the end of the catch-up tunnel. Let James have a vacation and a few weekends. Burnout is a terrible thing.

A nice long vacation for James is pretty much the top of my wish list for the next half year.

-Lisa

Sounds like he needs a nice long vacation in a room with padded walls and wearing a jacket with really long arms. ;D

Osirion

Stebehil wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:
Warforged Gardener wrote:
Still hiring editors? I'm willing to relocate from Florida if it will help Paizo get back on track. My bachelor's degree isn't doing me much good here anyway.

Nope, the new hire will be here in a few weeks, so everything should be good. We also have two new interns starting on Thursday, so help is on the way! But thanks for volunteering!

-Lisa

Is the new hire currently moving from Eastern Europe?

Well, moving by foot from, say, New England to Washington should take a few weeks as well.

Stefan

Nah moving can take some time, find a place to leave arranging new bank accounts and gods knows what else. It took me 3 weeks to move across state once due to needing to take care of such issues

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lisa Stevens wrote:
Airhead wrote:
And once you see daylight at the end of the catch-up tunnel. Let James have a vacation and a few weekends. Burnout is a terrible thing.

A nice long vacation for James is pretty much the top of my wish list for the next half year.

-Lisa

That sounds like a plan. We don't want him to burn out before AP 37: Buxom Elven Beauties From The Abyss (with no pocket dimensions included).

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:
Warforged Gardener wrote:
Still hiring editors? I'm willing to relocate from Florida if it will help Paizo get back on track. My bachelor's degree isn't doing me much good here anyway.

Nope, the new hire will be here in a few weeks, so everything should be good. We also have two new interns starting on Thursday, so help is on the way! But thanks for volunteering!

-Lisa

Is the new hire currently moving from Eastern Europe?

Cat, meet bag.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:


In any event... Pathfinder's slipped schedule is probably the thing at Paizo I'm the most ashamed about, and the panic attacks and stress it causes me are enough punishment... so if I don't post again to this thread rest assured it's not because I'm ignoring the complaints... it's just that threads like these are salt in the wound, sort of.

James, you guys do a great job. Sure, in a perfect world, things might not have slipped, but getting the Core Rules and the Bestiary done is a massive achievement – well done.

As for pocket dimensions, well, too much of a good thing can quickly become a bad thing (remember the glut of half dragons in the early days of 3.0). But the ‘pocket dimensions’ in Second Darkness, LoF and CoT have such a different feel, concept and (I imagine) play experience, that they’re hardly alike, except with some high level meta-game thinking.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

Mothman wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Is the new hire currently moving from Eastern Europe?
Cat, meet bag.

I don't know why anyone would refer to the new hire as a cat. Or a bag. Or a cat-in-a-bag...

Cat-in-a-hat, maybe.

Or "one cool cat"...

After all, I've heard it does get pretty cold in Eastern Europe this time of year. ;-D

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