RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I'd take the position of for every force there is an opposite reaction. So for every cleric that may dump water in deserts there might be another force doing the opposite that balance out what the cleric might try to do. So for everyone person who tries to turn a desert into a forest there would a force turning forests into deserts.So for every thing your players try to do, you'll just make some force come along and undo their efforts? That seems kind of adversarial, to me.
Manipulating the environment on a massive scale -- enough to turn deserts into forests -- will result in other unpredictable changes.
If someone wants to create water every round for a day in order to win over the populace of a desert city, I'd have no problem with that.
If they wanted to create water endlessly in order to turn a desert into a forest, there would be some consequences.
BTW, when I typed that bit about locusts, I was watching the Planet Earth series on deserts. That stuff actually happens!
Unless you hire a wizard/ cleric to enchant the entire fountain as one giant magic item.
Which would cost a bit more than just the 9k for the decanter. Plus, why kill a fresh adventure hook? Those are difficult enough to come by as it is.
and don't forget that Adepts do not cast unlimited cantrips per day, You can houserule that in, but it's just that, Adepts are limited to casting it per day.
You can add 3 more Adepts (one 3rd, and two 1st) to that as well, although that's only 9 more castings per day (for the average Small town).
Yes. The quote you were responding to specifically mentions that it's only 9 castings from the adepts. That was just tacked on there, the real factor is the 6 unlimited casters.
In my game I want the PCs to be better than everyone else, so I simply don't give NPCs PC classes. You'll encounter NPC druids, but an NPC druid is merely loaded up on adept levels. That theif, he's an expert/warrior multiclass. In order to have NPC wizards I created the Acolyte, an arcane mirror to the Adept that gets arcane bond at second level instead of just familiar. That effectively solved any unlimited orisons effecting the game world, since there are no NPCs with unlimited Orisons.
This isn't a direct response to your post here, but rather to the statement from people that "GMs can make their world how they want".
The point of the matter is that spells like Create Water, and items like the Decanter of Endless Water, exist in a game that assumes a certain level of magic.
That certain level of magic is specifically mentioned in the 3.5e DMG.
Yes, Golarion or a random GM can make their world how they want. If you want magic to be more rare than the standard, that's totally cool.
I personally want to DM an E6 style game where high level magic is nearly non-existant, and "all things magical" are rare as well.
However, that means you shouldn't be surprised if a spell doesn't fit your gameworld expectations.
There's no point to mincing RAW... it's time to move into houserules, which there've been a lot of good ideas given in this thread so far.
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This isn't a direct response to your post here, but rather to the statement from people that "GMs can make their world how they want".
The point of the matter is that spells like Create Water, and items like the Decanter of Endless Water, exist in a game that assumes a certain level of magic.
That certain level of magic is specifically mentioned in the 3.5e DMG.
And this is an unfortunate commonality in these sorts of threads. The rules say X. Someone posts that X might be an issue. Some yob posts, 'Well I don't use rule X, and I don't have this problem, so what are you complaining about?'
It's frustrating, but every thread has one.
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This isn't a direct response to your post here, but rather to the statement from people that "GMs can make their world how they want".
The point of the matter is that spells like Create Water, and items like the Decanter of Endless Water, exist in a game that assumes a certain level of magic.
That certain level of magic is specifically mentioned in the 3.5e DMG.
And this is an unfortunate commonality in these sorts of threads. The rules say X. Someone posts that X might be an issue. Some yob posts, 'Well I don't use rule X, and I don't have this problem, so what are you complaining about?'
It's frustrating, but every thread has one.
I didn't say it wasn't a problem I explained how I fixed the problem. there's a big difference.
Well, the problem was that *you* (should be Set) presented your fix with wording like it's "supposed" to be this way.
Specifically:
Using words like "by RAW" is different from "Here's my houserule".
*Update*
I was responding to Set's particular quote, not Lastknightleft's... so really this whole thing isn't aimed at lastknight anyways.
It's odd that I'm agreeing with Set's comment just two posts up, despite having started this line of talk from his comment about RAW. *Headshakes* I'm confused now...
I'd take the position of for every force there is an opposite reaction. So for every cleric that may dump water in deserts there might be another force doing the opposite that balance out what the cleric might try to do. So for everyone person who tries to turn a desert into a forest there would a force turning forests into deserts.So for every thing your players try to do, you'll just make some force come along and undo their efforts? That seems kind of adversarial, to me.
IMO, any potential issue should be dealt with at the rules level, before it hits the table, rather than be used to frustrate your friends.
That's what fantasy football is for.
On the grand scope of things the players would never notice so it's not a big deal but it sure helps the simple cleric turning a desert into a forest by wise use of orisons. So because the actions in one location changed the climate the players should never be effected by the opposite change in another region.
But to not explain it like that leads one to believe the world should be flooded by now due to decanters of endless water and careless clerics using create water. So my view is that Druids are at work to maintain the balance in nature by removing water. Now I doubt the player would ever face an impact by said druids but it is happening and the players need not worry about flooding the planet.
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Well, the problem was that *you* (should be Set) presented your fix with wording like it's "supposed" to be this way.
Specifically:
Using words like "by RAW" is different from "Here's my houserule".
*Update*
I was responding to Set's particular quote,
That aside - regarding the OP: I think by RAW this is not a problem at all - people seem to misunderstand how rare and special magic is. Sure, a first level cleric creates water at will. But there are only 1 in 10000 people that are a cleric. Maybe less.
While it's entirely possible I said 'RAW' somewhere in this conversation, and / or contradicted myself or behaved hypocritically with breathtaking chutzpah, that particular quote comes from LoreKeeper. :)
This isn't a direct response to your post here, but rather to the statement from people that "GMs can make their world how they want".
The point of the matter is that spells like Create Water, and items like the Decanter of Endless Water, exist in a game that assumes a certain level of magic.
That certain level of magic is specifically mentioned in the 3.5e DMG.
I have a DMG somewhere... or maybe one of my players stole it. I don't miss it. Is there something in the current rules you were thinking of or just being nostalgic?
On the grand scope of things the players would never notice so it's not a big deal but it sure helps the simple cleric turning a desert into a forest by wise use of orisons. So because the actions in one location changed the climate the players should never be effected by the opposite change in another region.
But to not explain it like that leads one to believe the world should be flooded by now due to decanters of endless water and careless clerics using create water. So my view is that Druids are at work to maintain the balance in nature by removing water. Now I doubt the player would ever face an impact by said druids but it is happening and the players need not worry about flooding the planet.
I think I get what you are saying, only it would be a more subtle effect on a planar level, not on a action by action level. There are likely multiple portals open to the plane of water at any given moment and while any single point doesn't need to be in balance the net effect is that the amount of water on the material plane is relatively constant.
I have a DMG somewhere... or maybe one of my players stole it. I don't miss it. Is there something in the current rules you were thinking of or just being nostalgic?This isn't a direct response to your post here, but rather to the statement from people that "GMs can make their world how they want".
The point of the matter is that spells like Create Water, and items like the Decanter of Endless Water, exist in a game that assumes a certain level of magic.
That certain level of magic is specifically mentioned in the 3.5e DMG.
I was talking about the quote where clerics are rarer than 1 in 10,000 people. The problem with assuming there's so few clerics (and thus saying it's not a concern because of that), is because the DMG has demographic rules for an assumed game that skew closer to 1 in 50 or 1 in 100.
As far as I've seen from Pathfinder campaign setting, or the adventure paths, it doesn't look like the game is suddenly less magical than the standard 3e.
It almost feels more magical, however I don't have any citations to give you, if that's what you are talking about. I don't think anyone could give me proof that Pathfinder assumes less magic than the standard (I couldn't find anything).
Maybe we'll see something about this when they release the Pathfinder DMG.
Maybe we'll see something about this when they release the Pathfinder DMG.
Pathfinder DMG? Thats part of the Pathfinder Core RPG book. The PRPG is setting neutral though and is not going to have any info on Golarion.
If you want info on Golarion you are going to need to check the Pathfinder Campaign Setting book or Campaign Chronicles: Gods and Magic.
There may be suggestions in the PRPG Gamemastery Guide for running less than average magic campaigns though. It is supposed to be all about DM/GM -ing. But by its very nature is going to be setting neutral.
There may be suggestions in the PRPG Gamemastery Guide for running less than average magic campaigns though. It is supposed to be all about DM/GM -ing. But by its very nature is going to be setting neutral.
Sorry for using the colloquial term for it. That is the book I meant.
There may be suggestions in the PRPG Gamemastery Guide for running less than average magic campaigns though. It is supposed to be all about DM/GM -ing. But by its very nature is going to be setting neutral.Sorry for using the colloquial term for it. That is the book I meant.
Ah yes... well there may be tips on running a lower magic game. However that book is specifically just about GM/DM -ing. Not sure it will have anything to do rule-wise with the actual RPG itself.
Its sorta a collected bible of tips and tricks and specific DM knowledge. At least thats my interpretation of the description they gave for it.
I'd agree that magic for Golarion is about par with base 3.5.
As far as I've seen from Pathfinder campaign setting, or the adventure paths, it doesn't look like the game is suddenly less magical than the standard 3e.
It almost feels more magical, however I don't have any citations to give you, if that's what you are talking about. I don't think anyone could give me proof that Pathfinder assumes less magic than the standard (I couldn't find anything).
I really could care less about the rules in 3.5, as far as I'm concerned they are water under the bridge. Personally I can't even find my 3.5 DMG any more and the specific rules you are talking about were never released under the SRD so they aren't online either.
Paizo has specifically said the Core book is IT, no other rules are required to run the game and that's how I run it. If you want to house rule a bunch of 3.5 rules back in then feel free but don't try cramming that stuff down my throat.
I believe the mind-set was to give the casters something "magical" they could always do to try and minimize the issue of "we fight a combat and then rest".
Ultimately, how you run your game is of course your choice.
Yep, but I don't think that at will 0 level spells has resolved the issue of "one combat one rest".
Indeed. The most important rule as Jason stated.
a City (even a small one) is going to go through a *lot* of water, especially if it supports agriculture from the same source. Liverpool went through about 40 million gallons a day in the early 20th century (at the time it had about 750,000 people).
That Decanter does 288 thousand gallons a day. Having some of them, and some acolytes handing out created water, will relieve the pressure and change the cities problem from 'everyone will be dead next week' to something less substantial, but it wouldn't eliminate it entirely.
Yep, but I don't think that at will 0 level spells has resolved the issue of "one combat one rest".
No, but it helps with low level casters. Acid splash and daze are decent when you can spam them all day at 1st-3rd level. Much better than missing with the crossbow :)
a City (even a small one) is going to go through a *lot* of water, especially if it supports agriculture from the same source. Liverpool went through about 40 million gallons a day in the early 20th century (at the time it had about 750,000 people).
That Decanter does 288 thousand gallons a day. Having some of them, and some acolytes handing out created water, will relieve the pressure and change the cities problem from 'everyone will be dead next week' to something less substantial, but it wouldn't eliminate it entirely.
And even if you are creating the water in large amounts ahead of time... unless you are doing so under controlled conditions the water is still going to evaporate due to the extreme temperature of the environment. So not all of that created water is going to be usable because of that water evaporation.
Yep, but I don't think that at will 0 level spells has resolved the issue of "one combat one rest".No, but it helps with low level casters. Acid splash and daze are decent when you can spam them all day at 1st-3rd level. Much better than missing with the crossbow :)
Allowing for cantrips like Launch Bolt, also help. That effectively gives the wizard a crossbow they do not need to load or carry the weight of. Spend a little money on Durable Bolts (alchemical item found in Elves of Golarion) and you do not need worry about running out of bolts overmuch as long as you reclaim your bolts after combat.
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the issue of "one combat one rest".
That issue is larged a player creation problem. As far as I'm concerned (as a player) if I run out of resources in a day, it is my fault. I let the party down, and I must continue on with no spells. It doesn't matter if I had 1 or 19 encounters that particular day, if I run out of resources for any reason it is my fault (not the DM or game system.)
And even if you are creating the water in large amounts ahead of time...
That is called "terraforming the desert", eventually it will become a lush forest if you leave an open decanter in a desert.
And even if you are creating the water in large amounts ahead of time...That is called "terraforming the desert", eventually it will become a lush forest if you leave an open decanter in a desert.
Not if you are not adding loam and other such material to the sand to actually make it capable of supporting plant life. Sand is quite barren and also does not contain many of the biological organisms and bacteria required to produce proper growing conditions.
Leaving one Decanter in the middle of the desert will at most possibly create a small oasis. First a pool will eventually grow (the output of the Decanter reaching a point were it matches the degree of evaporation and absorption by sand) then animals an the like will find the place and drink, possibly leaving behind seeds and droppings. Over time plants will thus grow. But it'll be a very slow process with setbacks every time a sandstorm blows through and fills in the pool or buries and scours away plant life.
This also dependent on the mineral content of the area... you could just end up creating a small salt lake or sea.
There are reasons desert environs are harsh. Just adding water is not in itself going to terraform the land.
Paizo has specifically said the Core book is IT, no other rules are required to run the game and that's how I run it. If you want to house rule a bunch of 3.5 rules back in then feel free but don't try cramming that stuff down my throat.
I think you may have misunderstood my using those rules then.
I used them to give an indication as to what the creators of 3e had in mind as a basis for "standard level of magic" in the game.
I never said that you needed to use this at all, or even meant to imply that not having 1 in 50 people a person who can cast Create Water as "not standard".
Rather, that these were the numbers that the designers had in mind when coming up with wealth per level, NPC equipment charts, items, etc.
If spells are written with a certain level of magic in mind, and that level of magic is changed drastically, that could easily skew results from one group's experience to the next.
It's an explanation, not a mandate.
The other reason was because I don't think I've ever played in a campaign that had 1st level clerics as rare as 1 in over 10,000. Using the DMG numbers was more "fun thought experiment" than "I prove you wrong, good sir!"...
No, but it helps with low level casters. Acid splash and daze are decent when you can spam them all day at 1st-3rd level. Much better than missing with the crossbow :)
Which can make daze a little too powerful.
In fact I will leave at will spells to 4e.Absolutely not my taste.
My group took a soft limit to the 'unlimited orisons' and the world building problems they caused - now, while they're still technically unlimited, casting spells is seen as exhausting, in a similar method to hustling, running, etc.
So while you could cast all day, you'd end up taking nonlethal and fatigued conditions doing so, and so your average cleric would be disinclined to wear their bodies out like that. Remember that prior to Pathfinder, the concept of being able to cast spells constantly was pretty much unheard of, so it was entirely logical that such a rule was simply never thought of - not omitted by design.
House rule? Sure, but it was more a logic rule than anything, so we ran with it. And a rule that explains away certain edge cases while leaving reasonable usage unaffected is a good rule, in our book at least. :)
Hilarious thread :D
Anyways, try it.. see for how long you can keep saying:
"in the name of Cayden Cailean the great, patron of all drinks, let there be water". Its supposed to take about 6 seconds. This spell is probarbly shorter, so consider it a boon.
Now, see if you can keep repeating that same line for an hour.. i bet 10 minutues will be too strainging already, or even 5 minutes.
..but we were captured by drow and theyll kill us if we dont keep on casting...
well, honestly, after 10 hours straight of just repeating that same line im pretty sure youll be begging for them to whip you to death..
It is threads like this that make me lament the lack of economic education in our schools. :D
The cleric can cast the orison all day long, every day, true. But what is the opportunity cost? What else could he have been doing with his time? That's the true cost of the orison. Maybe it could have been spreading the faith, or killing some goblins/orcs/trolls/dragons (depending on his level) to make the world safer, or even just made himself available on the open market for spellcasting. And that's why you don't find hordes of Adepts, Clerics, and Druids supplanting the world's ecosystems every day.
Suddenly I want to play a merchant cleric of Abadar...
I wrote in a similar post some time ago...
In my opinion it definitely needs a fix. My problem was that my campaign settings are inspired by the berber civilization, by the north african civilization, tuaregs, casbahs, timbuktu, Sahara desert and so on.
And, if it was so easy and unlimited to create water, such civilizations as we know them would never exist. I'm Not talking about transforming the desert into a forest or bla bla, but considering how precious water can be if the first adept / cleric that comes by create more than 1 liter of water per second!
That's why, as far as I'm the DM (not just in this desert settings because I want to put a thirst hazard) I play with a house ruled create water spell.
I did this by setting a limit to the water crated by day: this limit is equal to the amount of water created with one single casting of the spell as we find it in the core book.
Here there is an example: a lv1 Cleric with the 0° spell Create Water, can conjure a maximum of 7 liters of water per day. A 10° level cleric using the same spell, can conjure a maximum of water per day equal to 7x10= 70 liters.
If you want more water, you can use metamagic feats or whatever, and prepare it as a higher level spell.
This worked very well for me, in the start I thought I'd change it in a 1° spell but my players were already complaining "I don't want to spend a 1st level spell to create water, sigh sob buaaa", so I came up with that rule and it worked quite well so far.
I insist, this is not for 'game play' reasons, is for setting and flavour, let's say.
"Foul Necromancy!" Smites Feusraro, who is NOT sexy
Just to throw another monkey wrench into this conversation. What about :
Drench
School: conjuration (creation) [water]
Level: sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S
Range: close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: one creature or object of size Large or smaller
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Reflex negates (object)
Spell Resistance: yes (object)
A sudden downpour soaks the target creature or object. The rain follows the subject up to the range of the spell, soaking the target with water. If the target is on fire, the flames are automatically extinguished. Fires smaller than campfires (such as lanterns and torches) are automatically extinguished by this spell.
Is the water permanent? Can you catch and drink it?
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There was one episode where old clay pots were found with traces of an acid inside, and a metal rod with wire wound around it. The only thing this could be is a battery.
They made some themselves, with period materials, and found that while the charge was incredibly small and random, it would actually work. Could've been used for things like electro-plating and such.
The Bahgdad Battery did cause a panic and no one will accept the possiblity in orthodox circles because it means that all those solid gold items sat in museums maybe gold plated. They did use goldleaf a lot which may have in fact just be plating.
There is no way this would be a reason for panic in any educated circle. It is trivial to determine weather an item is solid gold or not, and also trivial to determine the purity of the gold, all without damaging the item you are testing. This problem was solved by the Archimedes' Priciple.
Eureka.
Duration: 1 round
Is the water permanent?
No. See duration.
Its not nearly as bad as you think
I did a stint in africa with the peace corps. The amount of water they needed for irrigation FAR outstrips what a 1st level caster can put out.
427 Gallon per minute pump looks about what they had for a small villiage. Three of them. They ran the pumps for a few hours a few times a week.
A caster pump puts out 2 gallons of water every 6 seconds, 20 gallons a minute, 1,200 gallons an hour, 19,200 a day assuming 8 hours of sleep and an inhuman amount of concentration.
The pump can do that in 44 minutes.
The place was still, quite obviously, a desert as soon as you got about 40 feet from the river. In fact a sand dune is slowly but inevitably moving in the direction of some of the fields.
So yes, you can have small villiages in areas that wouldn't otherwise have them, but you're not about to make the desert bloom either. Thats before you consider the fact that a 1st level character standing anywhere in a D&D world is just asking to be eaten by something.
For more pedantic waterworks, see the thread on the aqueduct vs the decanter of endless water.
No. See duration.
Duration: 1 round
Is the water permanent?
The water is better than permanant, its instantaneous.
Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.
So once you make it, its water. It doesn't detect as magic, vanish in an anti magic field, act like chinese food to make you thirsty in half an hour.. its water. You put it in a cup, make a lake out of it if you're really bored etc.
The water is better than permanant, its instantaneous.No. See duration.
Duration: 1 round
Is the water permanent?
Look at the duration line in Drench's description. It doesn't say instantaneous, it says "1 round".
Look at the duration line in Drench's description. It doesn't say instantaneous, it says "1 round".The water is better than permanant, its instantaneous.No. See duration.
Duration: 1 round
Is the water permanent?
whoops. Missed that it wasn't create water anymore. My bad.
So the target is onlly wet for one round then instantly dry?
I'd worry less about what the Clerics can do, and more about what the (supposedly) much more common Adepts can do. Which is the same, in this case.
Presumably, the deserts of Golarion are deserts *despite* the presence of Clerics, Druids and Adepts who can create water all day long, since the game world does exist as written. Perhaps the 'Water Lords' of Thuvia or whatever are run by cults that keep desert springs flowing with the help of 1st level Adepts, constantly 'praying to keep the water spirits happy.'
I think the reason that deserts still exist is that there is simply not enough population pressure to go to the trouble of terraforming them.