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I just started up a Council of Thieves campaign with three friends, and am looking at playing a character that eventually goes Arcane Archer. At the moment, he's looking like he'll end up being Wizard 1/Fighter 9/Arcane Archer 10 or Wizard 1/Fighter 8/Arcane Archer 10/Eldritch Knight 1.
At first level, he's a half-elf wizard, masterwork composite bow (14 str required) as his bonded item, transmutation school specialization. My stats after racial modifiers look something like:
Str 14
Dex 17 (see below)
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 8
We rolled stats, and I'm using my transmutation enhancement bonus to bump dex up to 18. I took Point Blank Shot at level 1.
I intend to take Master Craftsman and Craft Magical Arms and Armour, for character backstory reasons. Otherwise, what are some recommended feats?
He'll definitely be focusing on the archery part of arcane archer as opposed to the wizardry part. From what I've ready, a casting focused A.A. seems like it would end up being pretty weak all around, due mainly to loss of caster levels.
As such, I plan on taking a pretty straightforward route of Wizard at 1st, Fighter 2nd-7th, A.A. 8th-17th, then finish with fighter and possibly a level of EK. Any other builds are very welcome, although I've got to say I don't feel that Ranger fits my character and as such, I'd like to stay away from Ranger.
I just started up a Council of Thieves campaign with three friends, and am looking at playing a character that eventually goes Arcane Archer. At the moment, he's looking like he'll end up being Wizard 1/Fighter 9/Arcane Archer 10 or Wizard 1/Fighter 8/Arcane Archer 10/Eldritch Knight 1.
At first level, he's a half-elf wizard, masterwork composite bow (14 str required) as his bonded item, transmutation school specialization. My stats after racial modifiers look something like:
Str 14
Dex 17 (see below)
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 8We rolled stats, and I'm using my transmutation enhancement bonus to bump dex up to 18. I took Point Blank Shot at level 1.
I intend to take Master Craftsman and Craft Magical Arms and Armour, for character backstory reasons. Otherwise, what are some recommended feats?
He'll definitely be focusing on the archery part of arcane archer as opposed to the wizardry part. From what I've ready, a casting focused A.A. seems like it would end up being pretty weak all around, due mainly to loss of caster levels.
As such, I plan on taking a pretty straightforward route of Wizard at 1st, Fighter 2nd-7th, A.A. 8th-17th, then finish with fighter and possibly a level of EK. Any other builds are very welcome, although I've got to say I don't feel that Ranger fits my character and as such, I'd like to stay away from Ranger.
AP's typically don't go to 20, however why 1 EK? You lose a caster level and taking wiz 2 will get you the same BAB.
edit: 2Wiz, 5 FTR will get you weapon training and into arcane archer as fast as possible. If you're using arcane bond to put lots of extra dice on your bow, you'll probably wanna go with rapidshot/manyshot. If you're wanting lots of manueverability you may want to go the vitalstrike route.
Alternatively you could do 8 bard and get into arcane archer 1 level later with some nice bard buffs, armor, good caster level too. Depends on how you want to play it. Arcane strike is nice with bard it will scale up with your caster level which will be close behind a full caster when you get into arcane archer
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AP's typically don't go to 20, however why 1 EK? You lose a caster level and taking wiz 2 will get you the same BAB.
edit: 2Wiz, 5 FTR will get you weapon training and into arcane archer as fast as possible. If you're using arcane bond to put lots of extra dice on your bow, you'll probably wanna go with rapidshot/manyshot. If you're wanting lots of manueverability you may want to go the vitalstrike route.
Alternatively you could do 8 bard and get into arcane archer 1 level later with some nice bard buffs, armor, good caster level too. Depends on how you want to play it. Arcane strike is nice with bard it will scale up with...
There's a good chance our DM will keep it going after the AP ends. The higher levels are really more just me fantasizing about continuing the character all the way to 20th level.
I'm leaning towards using my arcane bond and Craft (Bow) (along with the aforementioned feats) to make my bow into a powerful magic item, and am probably going toward rapid/many shot.
I do prefer to stick with wizard, partly for flavor of the character, partly because one of my groupmates is probably going to be a pure bard. That level of Eldritch Knight was mainly for getting an extra feat, but I'm on the fence for that. Spending that level on Fighter, Wizard, or EK all have their advantages.
There's a good chance our DM will keep it going after the AP ends. The higher levels are really more just me fantasizing about continuing the character all the way to 20th level.I'm leaning towards using my arcane bond and Craft (Bow) (along with the aforementioned feats) to make my bow into a powerful magic item, and am probably going toward rapid/many shot.
I do prefer to stick with wizard, partly for flavor of the character, partly because one of my groupmates is probably going to be a pure bard. That level of Eldritch Knight was mainly for getting an extra feat, but I'm on the fence for that. Spending that level on Fighter, Wizard, or EK all have their advantages.
I would do what you're planning then.
1Wiz: scribe scrollfighter(assuming you get into AA as fast as possible using 6 here instead of 2 in wizard) Precise shot, Weapon focus(longbow), Weapon Specialization(longbow),manyshot
1:PBS
3:Rapid shot
5:Deadly Aim, at this point you've got your low level stuff and you're getting into Arcane archer. Remember you have to have sufficient caster level to add to your arcane bond so you may consider some wizard levels in the mix if you're wanting to enhance your bow. You could just pay for it though until you get a higher caster level through AA, Practiced spellcaster if allowed will let you at least put a +1 enhancement on it , +2 if you go to wiz2 before AA
edit: you might consider an alternate 2wiz, 5 ftr, 10 AA
FTR feats rapid shot, weapon focus, weapon specialization
wiz scribe scroll
1 PBS, 3 Precise shot, 5 Practiced spellcaster(getting you 5 caster level letting you enhance your bow as a +1 weapon(+2 when you take the second wiz level), 7 manyshot, still into AA by level 8
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Here's one question for the rules lawyers:
Using the Master Craftsman feat, would I be able to substitute my ranks for my caster level for purposes of being able to add magic abilities to my bonded item?
A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat.
Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
I'm just wondering if I can save myself a feat (and the two levels it would take me to get that feat). I don't mind taking CMAaA if only because I could then craft magical bows for any compatriots who might want one, but at this point I'm curious about the answer either way.
Specific over general, and there is no exclusion clause so:
Yes you could substitute the ranks (with the feat) for your caster level. The feat specifically says you can. Most people (non casters) have a caster level of 0. A wizard will generally have a caster level equal to his maximum ranks so the feat isn't worth it for him, however in the case that his maximum ranks was higher than his caster level he could take this feat and use the ranks instead of the caster level if he wanted.
Here's one question for the rules lawyers:
Using the Master Craftsman feat, would I be able to substitute my ranks for my caster level for purposes of being able to add magic abilities to my bonded item?
A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat.I'm just wondering if I can save myself a feat (and the two levels it would take me to get that feat). I don't mind taking CMAaA if only because I could then craft magical bows for any compatriots who might want one, but at this point I'm curious about the answer either way.Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous
Item feats.
Your answer is yes you can sub your craft skill if you take the master craftsman feat, but it's not going to save you a feat and it will weaken your character over practiced caster for the +4 caster level and qualifying for the other feats. I would highly discourage it, but you can if you want to. I'm curious, you said you wanted to play up the archery more than casting. Why not just go straight fighter then your master craftsman feat will make sense and you can still make a magic bow for half price?
sample 8 level build human fighter archer 4 feats for levels, 5 feats for fighter, 1 for humanweapon focus(longbow) point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, weapon specialization(longbow), deadly aim, rapid shot, manyshot, master craftsman, craft magical arms and armor and your build is basically complete at level 8. You can branch out and become double-tripple threat at that point. Dazzling display line could be incredible with rapid shot/manyshot.
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Your answer is yes you can sub your craft skill if you take the master craftsman feat, but it's not going to save you a feat and it will weaken your character over practiced caster for the +4 caster level and qualifying for the other feats.
Where is Practiced Caster? I think for simplicities sake we're only using Pathfinder RPG Core, and I don't see that anywhere. It is saving me a feat because before I was expecting to take Master Craftsman and then CMAaA. Also, the flavor and background of my character fit with the MC feat.
I would highly discourage it, but you can if you want to. I'm curious, you said you wanted to play up the archery more than casting. Why not just go straight fighter then your master craftsman feat will make sense and you can still make a magic bow for half price?
I really like the Arcane Archer as a concept, and have worked it into my story. He's a failed wizard with almost no confidence, who takes up bow making, and as he gains confidence and skill in his archery he begins to think about how he can work his limited magical abilities into his skill with the bow.
Mechanics-wise, making a magic bow for half price is only part of the benefit what I'm going for. He'll also get to turn all normal arrows into magic arrows at zero cost. Aligned elemental burst distance arrows at no cost to me will be very nice indeed.
sample 8 level build human fighter archer 4 feats for levels, 5 feats for fighter, 1 for human
weapon focus(longbow) point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, weapon specialization(longbow), deadly aim, rapid shot, manyshot, master craftsman, craft magical arms and armor and your build is basically complete at level 8. You can branch out and become double-tripple threat at that point. Dazzling display line could be incredible with rapid shot/manyshot.
I do like that build and would be doing something like that if it weren't for the fact that I'd really like to have some simple magic and my fondness of the Arcane Archer PrC.
Thanks for your advice and the build, I'll be using your list of feats as a starting point for building the character. Thanks to everybody for your help.
w0nkothesane
Got a question for you...
You do realize that few of your class features work with a magical bow or magical arrows right? All those "free magics" only work if the bow (and arrow) are non-magical to begin with.
If you use a magical bow all those bonuses go out the window.
Um...ah... Abe? Unless it was changed from 3.5, as long as the arrows are nonmagical it works. Infact that's the one thing the AA is really good at, stacking magical traits onto the arrows between his bow and class abilities.w0nkothesane
Got a question for you...
You do realize that few of your class features work with a magical bow or magical arrows right? All those "free magics" only work if the bow (and arrow) are non-magical to begin with.
If you use a magical bow all those bonuses go out the window.
Problem:
Every arrow fired by a magical bow becomes magical from the bow. Otherwise it wouldn't overcome damage reduction.
You can't have a nonmagical keen holy +5 arrow shoot from a magical bow.
Since the arrow is magical leaving the bow, it is no longer non-magical and therefore doesn't gain any of those wonderful properties that the arcane archer would bestow on it.
EDIT:
Rules quote to back me up, from the magic item section:
"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon ..."
Practiced spell caster gives you +4 caster level, can't exceed your HD so 6 FTR 1 wiz with practiced spellcaster is caster level 5.
2 Wiz 5 FTR with this feat gives you Caster level 6 and lets you into arcane archer at the same time already able to make a +2 bow.
so you can take practiced spellcaster and craft magical arms and armor with a caster level of 5-6
or you can take master craftsman and craft magical arms and armor with caster level 1-2. and still qualify at level 7, into your prestige at 8 either way.
Um...ah... Abe? Unless it was changed from 3.5, as long as the arrows are nonmagical it works. Infact that's the one thing the AA is really good at, stacking magical traits onto the arrows between his bow and class abilities.w0nkothesane
Got a question for you...
You do realize that few of your class features work with a magical bow or magical arrows right? All those "free magics" only work if the bow (and arrow) are non-magical to begin with.
If you use a magical bow all those bonuses go out the window.
Problem:
Every arrow fired by a magical bow becomes magical from the bow. Otherwise it wouldn't overcome damage reduction.
You can't have a nonmagical keen holy +5 arrow shoot from a magical bow.
Since the arrow is magical leaving the bow, it is no longer non-magical and therefore doesn't gain any of those wonderful properties that the arcane archer would bestow on it.
EDIT:
Rules quote to back me up, from the magic item section:
"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon ..."
What if you made the bow defending and moved it's enhancement bonus to your AC making it in effect for the arrow, non-magical.
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Problem:
Every arrow fired by a magical bow becomes magical from the bow. Otherwise it wouldn't overcome damage reduction.
You can't have a nonmagical keen holy +5 arrow shoot from a magical bow.
Since the arrow is magical leaving the bow, it is no longer non-magical and therefore doesn't gain any of those wonderful properties that the arcane archer would bestow on it.
EDIT:
Rules quote to back me up, from the magic item section:
"Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon ..."
As I understand it, you can't stack the enhancement bonuses, but all abilities do stack with whatever the bow gives you.
So if you've got a +5 speed bow, and you shoot a +1 flaming burst chaotic arrow from it, well then you've got a +5 speed flaming burst chaotic attack on your hands.
That's one thing that bow and arrow has going for it, you can get a huge effective enhancement bonus (5 from the +5, another 5 worth of special abilities, plus what the arrow gets, excluding the +1 needed to make it magical in the first place.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong (and every other person I've discussed the subject with) but your nocking a non-magical arrow. Your ability to apply the ability is independent of the bow applying the ability.
Infact, in a way, it's like you add your enhancements to the bow that imparts it's properties on the arrow.
I'm with kyrt-ryder. I've never seen that having a magical bow precludes the abilities of the class.
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Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.
It says nothing about special abilities, so if you fire a +1 Flaming arrow from a +5 Holy bow, you only lose the +1 on the arrow, everything else stacks.
I think the operative phrase in the quoted rule would be '...is treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming resistance...'. It doesn't say 'Is Magical'. It specifically states it is only for the purposes of overcoming resistance. Since the AA's abilities are not resistance, the 'treat as magical' doesn't affect them.
The AA class is bestowing magic to the arrow when it is knocked. The magical bow is bestowing magic when it fires. The AA's class ability is no different than picking up a +3 DragonBane arrow and firing it from a +2 Flaming Bow. The arrow would be a +3 Flaming DragonBane. A +1 Flaming Arrow fired from the same bow would be a +2 Flaming Arrow (the flaming doesn't stack, and the bow's +2 enhancement overrides the arrow's +1).
Now, if the AA picked up a +3 DragonBane arrow, he couldn't use any abilities because the arrow itself would have already been enchanted.
The way I've always looked at the way magical bows (and crossbows and slings) is that the bow is wrapping its magical aura around the ammo inside it. Then, you apply the normal stacking bonus/power rules.
Check Table 15-10 in the bottom:
"2 Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition."
Listed powers:
Bane, Flaming, Frost, Merciful, Shock, Thundering, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Flaming Burst, Holy, Icy burst, Shocking burst, Unholy
Those powers are conferred from the bow to the arrow.
The problem is that the arcane archer specifics "Nonmagical arrows" and an arrow fired from a magical bow becomes magical.
You can't have a non magical holy arrow.
For example:
You fire an arrow from a magical holy bow into an antimagic field. The bow is outside the field to be clear. The arrow gets the holy property from the bow once it is in the field though it doesn't continue to carry the holy property. Why? Because the holy property is magical, now the holy property is magical and it is on the arrow, hence the arrow is magical.
EDIT:
BIG THING:
The last part of the Arcane Archer's Enhance Arrow ability has a very important line I missed:
"The bonuses granted by a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger enhancement bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack."
SO the issue is moot as it is specifically addressed by the ability in question.
So it all doesn't matter, and a magical bow is good to go with this ability.
Check Table 15-10 in the bottom:
"2 Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition."
Listed powers:
Bane, Flaming, Frost, Merciful, Shock, Thundering, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Flaming Burst, Holy, Icy burst, Shocking burst, UnholyThose powers are conferred from the bow to the arrow.
The problem is that the arcane archer specifics "Nonmagical arrows" and an arrow fired from a magical bow becomes magical.
You can't have a non magical holy arrow.
For example:
You fire an arrow from a magical holy bow into an antimagic field. The bow is outside the field to be clear. The arrow gets the holy property from the bow once it is in the field though it doesn't continue to carry the holy property. Why? Because the holy property is magical, now the holy property is magical and it is on the arrow, hence the arrow is magical.
EDIT:
BIG THING:
The last part of the Arcane Archer's Enhance Arrow ability has a very important line I missed:
"The bonuses granted by a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger enhancement bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack."
SO the issue is mute as it is specifically addressed by the ability in question.
So it all doesn't matter, and a magical bow is good to go with this ability.
Not sure I follow your anti-magic field from the first part, but, the second half works for me. :)
stuff
Last line from PRD "The bonuses granted from a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack."
That tells me the arcane archer enhances the non-magical arrow before it gaines the enhancement from the bow. That's how I read it at least.
stuffLast line from PRD "The bonuses granted from a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack."
That tells me the arcane archer enhances the non-magical arrow before it gaines the enhancement from the bow. That's how I read it at least.
Yeah apparently you missed my edit above...
I just started up a Council of Thieves campaign with three friends, and am looking at playing a character that eventually goes Arcane Archer. At the moment, he's looking like he'll end up being Wizard 1/Fighter 9/Arcane Archer 10 or Wizard 1/Fighter 8/Arcane Archer 10/Eldritch Knight 1.
At first level, he's a half-elf wizard, masterwork composite bow (14 str required) as his bonded item, transmutation school specialization. My stats after racial modifiers look something like:
Str 14
Dex 17 (see below)
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 8We rolled stats, and I'm using my transmutation enhancement bonus to bump dex up to 18. I took Point Blank Shot at level 1.
I intend to take Master Craftsman and Craft Magical Arms and Armour, for character backstory reasons. Otherwise, what are some recommended feats?
He'll definitely be focusing on the archery part of arcane archer as opposed to the wizardry part. From what I've ready, a casting focused A.A. seems like it would end up being pretty weak all around, due mainly to loss of caster levels.
As such, I plan on taking a pretty straightforward route of Wizard at 1st, Fighter 2nd-7th, A.A. 8th-17th, then finish with fighter and possibly a level of EK. Any other builds are very welcome, although I've got to say I don't feel that Ranger fits my character and as such, I'd like to stay away from Ranger.
I would consider taking Ranger over fighter as you get Improved Precise at 6th instead of 11th which is amazing!
Yeah apparently you missed my edit above...stuffLast line from PRD "The bonuses granted from a magic bow apply as normal to arrows that have been enhanced with this ability. Only the larger bonus applies. Duplicate abilities do not stack."
That tells me the arcane archer enhances the non-magical arrow before it gaines the enhancement from the bow. That's how I read it at least.
Appearantly I did :) sorry
Um...so are Arcane Archers viable or not?
What is a good build with Arcane Archer? One of my friends is convinced that it is not at all viable and that eldritch knight is better in every way.
Yea they are viable but keep in mind that CoT only goes until 13th level, so the max levels you'd have of the prestige class is 6.
Yea they are viable but keep in mind that CoT only goes until 13th level, so the max levels you'd have of the prestige class is 6.
CoT?
Council of thieves.
I'm going with an Arcane Archer for the Kingmaker AP. At 20 I will be Ranger 6/Wizard 6/AA 9. I also took Transmutation school and getting to Wizard 5 gets an additional ability point as well as an extra point of damage for arcane strike. Here's a breakdown of the levels as I'm doing it:
R1 Point Blank Shot
W1
R2 Precise Shot, Arcane Strike
R3
R4 Rapid Shot
R5
R6 Manyshot, Weapon Focus (Longbow)
AA1
AA2 Deadly Aim
AA3
W2 Imp Crit (Longbow)
W3
AA4 Critical Focus
AA5
W4 Bleeding Crit
W5
AA6 Vital Strike
AA7
AA8 Improved Vital Strike
AA9
We're using 15 point buy so I went Elf to get the bonus to Dex and Int.
Edit: I also put together a fighter/bard that could qualify for AA but I didn't go that route with that character.
At 20 I will be Ranger 6/Wizard 6/AA 9.
Um... 6 + 6 + 9 = 21
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Wizard 2/fighter 5/AA 10/EK 3 gives you 19 BAB and CL of 11. Mostly archer and CL 11 is no slough for spells to give you a boost.
Fighter 1/wizard 5/EK 3/AA 4/EK 7 gives you BAB 17 and CL 17. You get imbue arrow to have some fun with those high level spells.
Wizard 2/fighter 5/AA 4/EK 9 Gives you BAB 19 and CL of 13. You miss out on a lot of the AA goodies, but you gain 2 CL so you can eventually imbue 7th level spells. You don't get either classes capstone...but both have very meh capstones anyways.
And yes the EK is being used as a filler class...as it should be because that is what the class design is. I don't care what the game designers said, it's a really poorly designed class otherwise.
Um... 6 + 6 + 9 = 21At 20 I will be Ranger 6/Wizard 6/AA 9.
Sorry, should be R6/W5/AA9...
I wish characters followed the monster CR design for 'key' classes to make multi-classing viable, provided characters were made based on CR instead of level ofcourse. Probably too complicated, but it might work from a mechanical point of view.
I'm running an arcane archer in Age of Worms (on hiatus), here is my build. I went with Sorcerer because I am dumb.
Level BAB CL Class Feat(s)/Class Abilities
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------
1 0 1 Sor 1 Point Blank Shot, Eschew Materials, Skill Focus (Perception)
2 1 1 Ftr 1 Precise Shot
3 2 1 Ftr 2 Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow)
4 3 1 Ftr 3 Armor Training
5 4 1 Ftr 4 Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Deadly Aim
6 5 1 Ftr 5 Weapon Training 1 (Bows)
7 6 1 Ftr 6 Manyshot, Arcane Strike
8 7 1 Arc 1 Enhance Arrows
9 8 2 Arc 2 Improved Critical (Longbow), Imbue Arrow
10 9 3 Arc 3 Enhance Arrows (Elemental)
11 10 4 Arc 4 Seeker Arrow, Improved Initiative
12 11 4 Arc 5 Distance Arrows
13 12 5 Arc 6 Phase Arrows, Improved Precise Shot
14 13 6 Arc 7 Enhance Arrows (Elemental Burst)
15 14 7 Arc 8 Hail of Arrows, Iron Will
16 15 7 EK 1 [Open Bonus Feat]
17 16 8 EK2 Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
18 17 9 EK3
19 18 10 EK4 [Open Feat]
20 19 11 EK5 [Open Bonus Feat]
Ranger 6 is actually pretty awesome. You don't get weapon spec or training, which does sort of stink (at least until you would take EK levels waaaay late) but you get improved precise shot at level 6 which is OMGHUGE!
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I actually have come to like the Bard 8 / AA 10 progression, finishing with two more bard levels.
It's not the most broken thing in the world but when you consider all the tricks, buffs, and sheer amount of skills a bard gets you do end up with a rather versatile character.
I also like that the class appears to play like support artillery, and you can effectively work with multiple non targeted spells that don't give saves and still do incredible stuff. Specifically, the Arrow of Mass Cure Light Wounds, Good hope, etc. is a great infantry support spell.
Granted this particular character is in kingmaker, where bards are rather useful to have around.
I actually have come to like the Bard 8 / AA 10 progression, finishing with two more bard levels.
I took the Bard path when AA first came out (the GM started us at 10) and loved it. The Bardic Knowledge was way too useful in that game. It really helped on several occasions.