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Iconic Identities


Pathfinder Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Okay, James Jacobs has said that there would be unrepresented human ethnicities among the new iconics. The currently unrepresented are; Mwangi, Tian and Ulfen.

Maybe we'll see an ulfen witch from irrisen? A tian alchemist? A mwangi summoner?

Also I anticipate a half-orc, and from a throwaway Wes comment, a half-orc cavalier.

What do you expect to see? What do you want to see when Wayne's art hits the blog and book?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

Ooh an Ulfen Witch would be most nifty.
I'd like to see a Summoner of Gex (complete with Frankenstein Monster).


I beleive it was also mentioned that we would see a different sex of one of the races, maybe a guy elf?

Though I'd love to see WAR do a female dwarf, I'm sure paizo wouldn't have her an ugly man of a thing, she'd be more like Pella from Looking For Group.

Paizo Employee Editor-in-Chief

Take everything Wes says with about a twenty pound bag of salt. He is notoriously false.

As for a female dwarf iconic, I'd start mourning that disappointment right now. :P

Taldor

Will the Templar and Anti-Paladin have iconic art as well?

Osirion

vagrant-poet wrote:

Okay, James Jacobs has said that there would be unrepresented human ethnicities among the new iconics. The currently unrepresented are; Mwangi, Tian and Ulfen.

Maybe we'll see an ulfen witch from irrisen? A tian alchemist? A mwangi summoner?

Don't forget Shoanti! (Again, grr!)

All of those sound awesome, seconding the call for an Ulfen Witch, Tian Alchemist and Mwangi Summoner! Maybe the Shoanti can be an Oracle (of Strength! or Destruction...).


Callous Jack wrote:
Will the Templar and Anti-Paladin have iconic art as well?

Iconic art is for Iconics silly! Even the prestige classes didn't count bar Seltyiel.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

We'll very likely illustrate either a templar or an antipaladin, but the won't be treated with the same level of hoopla as our iconics.

Taldor

James Jacobs wrote:
We'll very likely illustrate either a templar or an antipaladin, but the won't be treated with the same level of hoopla as our iconics.

Bummer. So the templar or antipaladin will not get a design by WAR or a name with stats. And it won't appear on the AP cover or in the interior art of the AP where the party battles a monster/BBG?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Callous Jack wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
We'll very likely illustrate either a templar or an antipaladin, but the won't be treated with the same level of hoopla as our iconics.
Bummer. So the templar or antipaladin will not get a design by WAR or a name with stats. And it won't appear on the AP cover or in the interior art of the AP where the party battles a monster/BBG?

Correct.

In fact, NONE of these iconics will appear on a cover, nor are they likely to show up in a Pathfinder AP as pregenerated characters. They'll probably not show up in art that often either. We're still mulling a lot of that over in our heads.


Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

How about as a mini?


I'd like to see a half-orc iconic in something other than the assassin PrC.

Osirion

James Jacobs wrote:
We'll very likely illustrate either a templar or an antipaladin, but the won't be treated with the same level of hoopla as our iconics.

Please by all thats unholy don't call it an anti-paladin. I know you guys like the old school vib, I do alot myself. However it sounds like a cheap comic villain from the 60's


Disciple of Sakura wrote:
I'd like to see a half-orc iconic in something other than the assassin PrC.

I would totally bet on that, at least one of them will be, its the only uncovered core race!

Taldor

James Jacobs wrote:
In fact, NONE of these iconics will appear on a cover, nor are they likely to show up in a Pathfinder AP as pregenerated characters. They'll probably not show up in art that often either. We're still mulling a lot of that over in our heads.

Double bummer, I liked how Paizo did the slow introduction of the core classes through the blog and the AP. I also love seeing them in the artwork throughout the books.

Is there a reason for that decision?
And if it's still being mulled over, can community opinion sway it one way or another?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Callous Jack wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
In fact, NONE of these iconics will appear on a cover, nor are they likely to show up in a Pathfinder AP as pregenerated characters. They'll probably not show up in art that often either. We're still mulling a lot of that over in our heads.

Double bummer, I liked how Paizo did the slow introduction of the core classes through the blog and the AP. I also love seeing them in the artwork throughout the books.

Is there a reason for that decision?
And if it's still being mulled over, can community opinion sway it one way or another?

Several reasons, actually:

1) The iconics are on a different schedule than Pathfinder AP is, so we'd have to end up waiting until well after the Gamemastery Guide is printed before putting the new iconics on the cover of Pathfinder, at which point they're reprinted artwork from inside of the Gamemastery Guide. I'm not keen or interested in "reprinting" art on a cover of Pathfinder APs.

2) Art is already ordered for Pathfinder covers through to Pathfinder #36. The earliest we'd be able to do the new iconics on a cover is Pathfinder #37, by which point the tradition of putting NPCs from the AP on the cover will have outweighed the iconics on the cover by 2 to 1. I'm not interested in switching that around again.

3) Part of the reason we put the iconics on the covers of the first 12 is that we could defray the cost of designing iconics, which is a VERY important part of our strategy for launching a new campaign world and game. By using them first as covers, we were able to afford it. We don't need to do the same with this newest batch of iconics since we're in a MUCH more stable place now than when we had just lost the magazine licenses and were taking a huge risk launching a new 3.5 campaign setting in the twilight of the edition's lifespan.

4) THE BIG REASON: The six new iconics are not core classes. We won't be assuming that everyone will buy the Advanced Player's Guide (as nice as that would be), and so whenever we use anything from the Advanced Player's Guide we'll have to reprint all of the relevant rules for those elements, just as we do when we use a monster from a non-Bestiary source or a prestige class from a different Pathfinder or 3rd party product. If we put the new iconics on the cover and put them in the artwork for each AP, then we'd HAVE to put them in as pregenerated characters in the back. And since the classes are not core classes, we'd have to reprint all of the rules, which in our current format won't work—full stat blocks with full rules reprints won't fit in a half-page format. We'd have to devote 4 pages in each volume to a pregenerated character, and as popular as the pregens are in some circles, they're NOT in others. Losing 2 pages of content for 2 additional pregenerated characters is not good for the Adventure Path.

The only way community opinion can sway our decision would be for us to see and trust that the vast majority of our readers would be interested in reducing Pathfinder's content by 2 pages, or barring that seeing that they'd be comfortable with having the Advanced Player's Guide being grandfathered in to being a core book. Since that increases the "buy in" to being able to use a Pathfinder product by the cost of another hardcover, I really really don't see that being a popular choice.

THAT ALL SAID! We'll certainly be using the APG icionics in art now and then. Probably never in an adventure's illustrations, but perhaps now and then in companions or chronicles products or in support articles in Pathfinder.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Please by all thats unholy don't call it an anti-paladin. I know you guys like the old school vib, I do alot myself. However it sounds like a cheap comic villain from the 60's

The class still isn't nailed down name-wise, but we are indeed favoring antipaladin right now. The other big option is, of course, blackguard... but since this class is going to be a full base class from level 1 to 20, naming it the blackguard replaces the 3.5 prestige class option, and we'd have to decide if losing compatibility with 3.5 for this class is worth it. And if neither of those choices is right, we'll have to come up with a brand new THIRD name for the class, which is a poor option since it would confuse folks who already understand the concept perfectly when the class is called antipaladin or blackguard.

Antipaladin appeals to me not only because it's got a LOT of tradition and nostalgia behind it and because it's something that everyone who plays the game immediately understands (unlike the growing pains we're going through with names like "oracle"), but also because it evokes the "antichrist" type vibe as well, which in popular culture brings up imagery from movies like The Omen, which ALSO helps define the class's role.

Taldor

Thanks James, I have nothing more to add as those seem like pretty good reasons to me. :)

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
The class still isn't nailed down name-wise, but we are indeed favoring antipaladin right now. The other big option is, of course, blackguard... but since this class is going to be a full base class from level 1 to 20, naming it the blackguard replaces the 3.5 prestige class option, and we'd have to decide if losing compatibility with 3.5 for this class is worth it. And if neither of those choices is right, we'll have to come up with a brand new THIRD name for the class...

The Inglourious Basterd?


Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

You're right CJ...pretty hard to argue with those reasons. I didn't see anything about the possibility of minis, though.

And another thing: Yay anti-paladin name choice!


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Antipaladin is fine with me, I see no reason to change it. It's also interesting to hear about the reasons for using/not using specific art on certain products.

I think I've heard someone use the term "maladin" before ("mal" meaning "bad") but it's not something I think I'd care to use.

For those who don't care for "antipaladin", keep in mind there are many names that could be worse; had White Dwarf invented it, there are better than even odds it would have been called the Nidalap.


Ooh, my favorite "Bad" guys. I have always loved Paladins, but I secretly (shh!) adore the Anti-Paladin. The concept of this yang to the Paladin's Yin is greatly anticipated.

The old-school vibe of the name is very good in my opinion, as it truly does represent the opposite side of the shiny "Lawful Good and Violent About It" coin.

*does a little evil happy dance*

Andoran RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I want to play a reformed Anti-paladin who converts to LG and is called and Anti-anti-paladin!

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have to say I don't see why there would be any problem on putting art for the iconics inside the adventure paths or modules after all just because you have them art wise does not mean you have to use them as Pregens

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Kevin Mack wrote:
I have to say I don't see why there would be any problem on putting art for the iconics inside the adventure paths or modules after all just because you have them art wise does not mean you have to use them as Pregens

Actually, it sort of does. We try to give each adventure path it's own set of heroes so that when you go through an AP's art, it sort of tells a story. We try to make sure to stick to the same four iconics for an entire arc as a result, and have been doing that since the start.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

Take everything Wes says with about a twenty pound bag of salt. He is notoriously false.

As for a female dwarf iconic, I'd start mourning that disappointment right now. :P

*takes THIS with a twenty pound bag of inner sea salt*

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
I have to say I don't see why there would be any problem on putting art for the iconics inside the adventure paths or modules after all just because you have them art wise does not mean you have to use them as Pregens
Actually, it sort of does. We try to give each adventure path it's own set of heroes so that when you go through an AP's art, it sort of tells a story. We try to make sure to stick to the same four iconics for an entire arc as a result, and have been doing that since the start.

Well to be fair whether by accident or design (In this case accident) It has never really worked that way cover wise at least Second darkness and Legacy of fire coming to mind in these cases.


James Jacobs wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
I have to say I don't see why there would be any problem on putting art for the iconics inside the adventure paths or modules after all just because you have them art wise does not mean you have to use them as Pregens
Actually, it sort of does. We try to give each adventure path it's own set of heroes so that when you go through an AP's art, it sort of tells a story. We try to make sure to stick to the same four iconics for an entire arc as a result, and have been doing that since the start.

And I know I appreciate it!

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kevin Mack wrote:
I have to say I don't see why there would be any problem on putting art for the iconics inside the adventure paths or modules after all just because you have them art wise does not mean you have to use them as Pregens
James Jacobs wrote:
Actually, it sort of does. We try to give each adventure path it's own set of heroes so that when you go through an AP's art, it sort of tells a story. We try to make sure to stick to the same four iconics for an entire arc as a result, and have been doing that since the start.

They could appear as supporting cast; when the PCs are in town, we see Ezren visiting the Iconic Alchemist, etc...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Kevin Mack wrote:
Well to be fair whether by accident or design (In this case accident) It has never really worked that way cover wise at least Second darkness and Legacy of fire coming to mind in these cases.

Yeah; on the covers we sometimes have trouble getting the artist to stick to the four iconics we want. This was a particular problem with Legacy of Fire. For the first two covers to Second Darkness, we didn't yet have all the art in for the iconics we wanted to use as reference when the artist was creating the paintings, so we had to use different iconics.

The interior art we've been a lot more lucky with, though.


And it'll likely get more strong and reliabel with reinforcment, as opposed to you know, total neglect!


The one thing that worries me about the approach to the Advanced Player's Guide classes in this regard is that I'm afraid they'll be neglected in future rules supplements, just like WotC did with the classes introduced in the Complete series. There were some wonderful classes that could have stood to have additional support, but they just put in new features for the core guys. It makes sense, but it tends to make one feel that his choice of a non-core class is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Andoran RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Disciple of Sakura wrote:
The one thing that worries me about the approach to the Advanced Player's Guide classes in this regard is that I'm afraid they'll be neglected in future rules supplements, just like WotC did with the classes introduced in the Complete series. There were some wonderful classes that could have stood to have additional support, but they just put in new features for the core guys. It makes sense, but it tends to make one feel that his choice of a non-core class is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Considering that some of the adventure paths use classes from 3rd party OGL products, I'd guess that we'll see the occasional witch, oracle, etc. once they're out.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Yeah; we'll absolutely be throwing an oracle or witch or whatever into modules or adventures or sourcebooks now and then. They won't be as common as the 11 core classes though.

In fact, a close read of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting should reveal that we HAVE mentioned oracles and witches and alchemists here and there already. This lets us use these new classes now and then for some of the established NPCs. Which is also why we aren't generally saying what level and classes those NPCs are (such as the Majestrix of Cheliax)... leaves things open for them to be classes we haven't thought of yet when we're creating the characters.


James Jacobs wrote:
4) THE BIG REASON: The six new iconics are not core classes. We won't be assuming that everyone will buy the Advanced Player's Guide (as nice as that would be), and so...

Not for nothing but I'm thinking you may be wrong on this one


James Jacobs wrote:
In fact, a close read of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting should reveal that we HAVE mentioned oracles and witches and alchemists here and there already.

and when you mentioned oracles it discussed (orcs I believe) huddled around predicting the future which what we think of when we hear the word "oracle" and not what we see in the new class

Just saying is all

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

To be fair, oracles, or any type of time-viewing/travelling/affecting class is problematic to create for a game, since the players expect their actions to matter.

You don't have the luxury of a fiction writer, who can wave away a prophecy, by saying "Your atempts to avert catastrophe Y, by action X, are what created Y after all...".
(See Judge Dredd, 'The Judge Child'/'City of The Damned' arcs)
You do that as a DM, and you'll just get a table-flip, and a fractured group.

The problem is: if the future's fixed, then our actions don't matter; if the future's still malleable, then our predictions are worthless.

That's why such classes (like the diviner) tend to focus on split-second glimpses into the future, with the appropriate skill/save/attack bonuses, uncanny dodge, action point re-rolls, etc.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

Back on topic (getting a little bored of the constant mentioning of the oracle's name.) Are we going to see a half-orc iconic? Core race needs some love, and everybody loves Belkzen!


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Back on topic (getting a little bored of the constant mentioning of the oracle's name.) Are we going to see a half-orc iconic? Core race needs some love, and everybody loves Belkzen!

Indeed everyone does love Belkzen - come on over for supper [we're having you and your children], play a little "spike the Shoanti", help us with our half breed program... what's not to love people?

Maybe the Half-Orc Iconic could be a Half Breed Gigolo - crude, stinks a bit but has a big upside ;)

Belkzen - loved by people and loving them back...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

MerrikCale wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
4) THE BIG REASON: The six new iconics are not core classes. We won't be assuming that everyone will buy the Advanced Player's Guide (as nice as that would be), and so...
Not for nothing but I'm thinking you may be wrong on this one

If I'm wrong, it flies in the face of my experiences regarding core/non-core books over the past decade or so of my stint working for Wizards of the Coast and Paizo.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Back on topic (getting a little bored of the constant mentioning of the oracle's name.) Are we going to see a half-orc iconic? Core race needs some love, and everybody loves Belkzen!

As half-orcs are the only race we haven't used as an iconic... having a half-orc iconic among these new six base classes would certainly seem to be a logical choice.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
We'll very likely illustrate either a templar or an antipaladin, but the won't be treated with the same level of hoopla as our iconics.
Please by all thats unholy don't call it an anti-paladin. I know you guys like the old school vib, I do alot myself. However it sounds like a cheap comic villain from the 60's

The anti-paladin killed Supergirl! Get him!

Any of our artists want to draw Valeros holding Seoni in that 'Crisis on Infinite Earth's' pose?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Matthew Morris wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
We'll very likely illustrate either a templar or an antipaladin, but the won't be treated with the same level of hoopla as our iconics.
Please by all thats unholy don't call it an anti-paladin. I know you guys like the old school vib, I do alot myself. However it sounds like a cheap comic villain from the 60's

The anti-paladin killed Supergirl! Get him!

Any of our artists want to draw Valeros holding Seoni in that 'Crisis on Infinite Earth's' pose?

I'd rather see Seoni holding Valeros in that pose, to be honest.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:


I'd rather see Seoni holding Valeros in that pose, to be honest.

In that case use the Death of Superman cover. Almost as iconic, and no gender swap needed.

Osirion

James Jacobs wrote:
I'd rather see Seoni holding Valeros in that pose, to be honest.

Not an option. Seoni face up in his arms would prominently display her 'familiars,' while Seoni carrying Valeros would completely hide them from view. (Seelah carrying Sajan would be more amusing, from a gender-bending POV, as the fully-clad warrior woman carries the graceful dude wearing a half-shirt out of danger.)

OTOH, Valeros is more likely than Seoni to *need* to be carried out of a fight. He seems to be in a competition for how many times he can be on the ground, bleeding, while Kyra heals his loser self (PFCR p 6 and 190 for two examples, and on 222, he seems to be headed there fast). Boy needs to buy himself a shield.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

...

4) THE BIG REASON: The six new iconics are not core classes. We won't be assuming that everyone will buy the Advanced Player's Guide (as nice as that would be), and so whenever we use anything from the Advanced Player's Guide we'll have to reprint all of the relevant rules for those elements, just as we do when we use a monster from a non-Bestiary source or a prestige class from a different Pathfinder or 3rd party product. If we put the new iconics on the cover and put them in the artwork for each AP, then we'd HAVE to put them in as pregenerated characters in the back. And since the classes are not core classes, we'd have to reprint all of the rules, which in our current format won't work—full stat blocks with full rules reprints won't fit in a half-page format. We'd have to devote 4 pages in each volume to a pregenerated character, and as popular as the pregens are in some circles, they're NOT in others. Losing 2 pages of content for 2 additional pregenerated characters is not good for the Adventure Path.

The only way community opinion can sway our decision would be for us to see and trust that the vast majority of our readers would be interested in reducing Pathfinder's content by 2 pages, or barring that seeing that they'd be comfortable with having the Advanced Player's Guide being grandfathered in to being a core book. Since that increases the "buy in" to being able to use a Pathfinder product by the cost of another hardcover, I really really don't see that being a popular choice.

THAT ALL SAID! We'll certainly be using the APG icionics in art now and then. Probably never in an adventure's illustrations, but perhaps now and then in companions or chronicles products or in support articles in Pathfinder.

As someone who'd like to see the extra classes, both in an an AP's interior art arc and their stats leveled up as pregens over the course of an AP, I offer the following modest proposal:

I doubt many customers would object to longer stat blocks if they came from the ads, rather than the content. Since you'll presumably be advertising this Advanced Player's Guide in those ad pages anyway, could you maybe restructure its ad visually into a "free sample" format, such that the necessary rules for one of the six classes is presented, along with that AP's iconic? If over a year, one of the two APs has one guest class for its iconic four, you might be able to increase or maintain over time the interest in the APG, as well.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Please by all thats unholy don't call it an anti-paladin. I know you guys like the old school vib, I do alot myself. However it sounds like a cheap comic villain from the 60's

The class still isn't nailed down name-wise, but we are indeed favoring antipaladin right now. The other big option is, of course, blackguard... but since this class is going to be a full base class from level 1 to 20, naming it the blackguard replaces the 3.5 prestige class option, and we'd have to decide if losing compatibility with 3.5 for this class is worth it. And if neither of those choices is right, we'll have to come up with a brand new THIRD name for the class, which is a poor option since it would confuse folks who already understand the concept perfectly when the class is called antipaladin or blackguard.

Antipaladin appeals to me not only because it's got a LOT of tradition and nostalgia behind it and because it's something that everyone who plays the game immediately understands (unlike the growing pains we're going through with names like "oracle"), but also because it evokes the "antichrist" type vibe as well, which in popular culture brings up imagery from movies like The Omen, which ALSO helps define the class's role.

I don't care much for "Antipaladin" it sounds very anachronistic to me. I don't know if it is trademarked or a free word, but Everquest used "Shadowknight" which I always liked. You could also use Dread Knight or something along those lines.


Coridan wrote:
I don't care much for "Antipaladin" it sounds very anachronistic to me. I don't know if it is trademarked or a free word, but Everquest used "Shadowknight" which I always liked. You could also use Dread Knight or something along those lines.

The use of the name 'anti paladin' [in game] predates about half the the younger posters on the boards; it's appearace in Dragon magazine is even older than how long WotC or Paizo have been in existence. In other words, there is some pedigree that comes with that name.

If the term seems jarring, remember there were men dubbed as 'anti Popes'.

That being said, I wonder if the term 'Sith' is trademarked.

Spoiler:
; P


James Jacobs wrote:
MerrikCale wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
4) THE BIG REASON: The six new iconics are not core classes. We won't be assuming that everyone will buy the Advanced Player's Guide (as nice as that would be), and so...
Not for nothing but I'm thinking you may be wrong on this one
If I'm wrong, it flies in the face of my experiences regarding core/non-core books over the past decade or so of my stint working for Wizards of the Coast and Paizo.

Fair enough. I'm just thinking it will be real real well

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
logic_poet wrote:
I doubt many customers would object to longer stat blocks if they came from the ads, rather than the content. Since you'll presumably be advertising this Advanced Player's Guide in those ad pages anyway, could you maybe restructure its ad visually into a "free sample" format, such that the necessary rules for one of the six classes is presented, along with that AP's iconic? If over a year, one of the two APs has one guest class for its iconic four, you might be able to increase or maintain over time the interest in the APG, as well.

The 1980s ads for Marvel Superheroes by TSR used to consist mainly of a statblock, with the game's name and photo of the box tucked in the header and footer.

Captain Britain seemed to be a favourite in the mags I read, funnily enough.

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