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How Should Paizo Do It Differently?
I was just reading through this excellent thread here and after a while I started to think about what is going to happen when Paizo comes to the inevitable point where they have to produce a Pathfinder 2nd Edition. It would have to incorporate system changes but, as we have seen, if these system changes are too dramatic they tend to split the community.
What advice would you give to Paizo about how to evolve the product line without fracturing/isolating the community?
...and an overwhelming majority cried out that they don't ever, in a million years, want to see a Pathfinder v2. They don't even want to entertain the idea. You probably just want this thread to quietly fall into the archives. I've still got burn marks on me.
...and an overwhelming majority cried out that they don't ever, in a million years, want to see a Pathfinder v2. They don't even want to entertain the idea. You probably just want this thread to quietly fall into the archives. I've still got burn marks on me.
For the record, I want PF v2.
Just because I hate 4e and didn't think 3e's time has come yet doesn't mean I don't like change at all or that it will never be 3e's time to call it quits.
Doesn't mean I want Paizo to start working right now. Or this week. But I think the day will come.
I too don't like 4E but would really be in favor of something a bit more dramatic than 3.5 with a few more bells and whistles.
However, it appears clear that the majority of Pathfinder fans will be happy playing a 3.x based system for the remainder of their lives. More power to them.
I'd like to see something more though. However, I'm also stupid and crazy so what do I know.
Let us play and look for possibilities... I think that throwing a topic like this after a year or two will net some results. It's way too early now.
I think Pathfinder 2nd would be a great thing to come out in say, 8-10 years.
Or an alternative set of Pathfinder rules at some point that "worry" less about backwards compatibility and just comes up with a good, clean system that works and fits the feel and fluff well. Yes, I realize that could sound like a push for 4th ed, but it isn't. (If anything, I think 4th ed pushed further down the tactical line, which I don't want. It's fine for what it is, but it isn't what I want.)
Heh, way too early for even a theoretical dicusions :D
...and an overwhelming majority cried out that they don't ever, in a million years, want to see a Pathfinder v2. They don't even want to entertain the idea. You probably just want this thread to quietly fall into the archives. I've still got burn marks on me.
Heh, I wasn't really looking for a discussion on what specific rules would be changed etc. but more along the lines of how might they go about introducing a new version of a game in general to a community without causing the kind of upset that *you know who* did twice with D&D.
I too don't like 4E but would really be in favor of something a bit more dramatic than 3.5 with a few more bells and whistles.
The problem with 4e is not that it is different from 3e. A new edition has to be different, or it's no new edition.
The problem is that it was too different and basically turned into a new game, that the changes were more than just rules, that the changes sucked, and that it was too early.
(I know, I know, a lot of you like 4e. Good for you. A lot of us don't, and for these reasons. Insert "IMO"s into my post liberally if you need).
So as someone who really doesn't like 4e for the reasons mentioned above, I say how and when I want my Pathfinder 2e:
Pathfinder kept that, and added the lamia matriarch who had the classical serpent motif (as well as other lamyrkin monsters), thus staying true to both the game's history and those myths the game first drew its inspiration from.
4e, on the other hand, took a different critter (according to Wikipedia, it's an insect swarm that uses the body of an eladrin - which aren't what they used to be, either - as a disguise) and called it lamia.
Pathfinder mustn't go down that route, ever - but from what I think of Paizo, and what I've read James Jacobs write yesterday or so, that won't happen.
I'd personally like PF 2e to be released in, say, 5 years, but it was said that PF 1e will be around for about 10 years before being replaced.
Not quite my time frame, but I can totally live with it, seeing how PF 1e turned out.
I do think that they should start on it now. In fact, I hope they have started already.
Not actually putting stuff into writing for immediate release. But I hope people at Paizo already have a folder where they put down notes and ideas about the current game and how it could be improved.
I even suspect that Jason made notes like that during PF 1e development: "Hm... I have an idea that would work even better, but alas, it is not for PF, as it would change so much. Still, I'll write it down in my Big Folder Of The Future"
Or an alternative set of Pathfinder rules at some point that "worry" less about backwards compatibility and just comes up with a good, clean system that works and fits the feel and fluff well.
That would mean having two sets of rules at once. Probably not a good idea.
I will personally report every poster who seriously participates in this discussion in the next five or six years to our beloved Inquisitors and those nice fellows from the Order of the Rack...
No you won't! Revisions are Good! They are Right! Look at how we revise history books all the time, to take them closer to the Truth!
Just look how current history books are a mess, how they falsely portray Andoran as anything other than a dangerous den of thieves and troublemakers.
Well for one thing I'd like to see a cloth-wearing theurge and a "gish" theurge and thus eliminate the "clerics should have heavy armor" debate and hopefully make everyone happy.
...eliminate the "clerics should have heavy armor" debate...
Say what now?
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For the record, I want PF v2.
Just because I hate 4e and didn't think 3e's time has come yet doesn't mean I don't like change at all or that it will never be 3e's time to call it quits.
For the record, I do not want PF v2.
This has nothing to do with 4e. It has everything to do with the fact I love Pathfinder RPG and the 3.5 rules as they are. They don't need to be endlessly changed.
There are tons of games out there to achieve the variants a vast majority of people would want: Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, Experimental Might, Trailblazers, Grim Tales, Iron Heroes, Conan RPG, Fourth Edition D&D, True20, Microlite20, ... the list is practically endless.
Pick your options and houserule the system however you want instead of waiting for "the next Official™ edition".
To quote myself from the other thread mentioned/linked upthread:
Different printings, like Castles & Crusades? Sure. I'm okay with that.
A Pathfinder Lite version, as a self-contained boxed set, to introduce kids to the game? I'd buy that in a heartbeat.
Starting the cycles of editions again? Please, no. Enough is enough. If they decide to go with this kind of rince/repeat marketing, I'll just go get my AD&D books, launch a new campaign and leave PF aside just like I left Fourth edition go on its way. I read this meme of "inevitable second edition" of Pathfinder in which "Paizo transforms the game to such an extent it truly becomes Paizo's own game system" all over the place, coming often from people who don't like 3.5 and PF RPG in the first place, and all I can do is shake my head in disbelief. Please, no. Not again.
Well I like Pathfinder, but it's hardly perfect. So I do want to see a new edition eventually. But on the other hand it is pretty good, so I could wait for a good 8-10 years before it comes out.
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I will personally report every poster who seriously participates in this discussion in the next five or six years to our beloved Inquisitors and those nice fellows from the Order of the Rack...No you won't! Revisions are Good! They are Right! Look at how we revise history books all the time, to take them closer to the Truth!
Just look how current history books are a mess, how they falsely portray Andoran as anything other than a dangerous den of thieves and troublemakers.
Ah, but you have it wrong, Kae; it has always been that way! It's a laughable idea spread by those pathetic revolutionists and envious Taldans that our beloved Majestrix -- or her blessed, faithful servants -- would need to tamp... er, revise history. All those history books that contain alternate versions of events are just works of heretics and exist because they were confiscated by our righteous Inquisitors and Hellknights, who only wish to uphold the truth and law and order, and protect our glorious nation from the lies of our bitter, lesser neighbors!
Yet, even those blasphemous works do not deny the well-known, universally-recognised facts that Andoran is nothing more than a den of thieves or troublemakers and that Taldor is nothing more than a rapidly declining empire of degenerate, inbred fools whose main hobby is perfuming their flea-ridden wigs! ;P
Pathfinder isn't perfect, but that's not a reason to have a 2.0. It may, actually, be a reason to NOT have a 2.0. I say this because nearly everyone who plays will have a few things they'd do differently.
I guess what I'm saying is if you're pleasing most of the people most of the time, you're probably doing a pretty gorram good job.
I will personally report every poster who seriously participates in this discussion in the next five or six years to our beloved Inquisitors and those nice fellows from the Order of the Rack...No you won't! Revisions are Good! They are Right! Look at how we revise history books all the time, to take them closer to the Truth!
Just look how current history books are a mess, how they falsely portray Andoran as anything other than a dangerous den of thieves and troublemakers.
Ah, but you have it wrong, Kae; it has always been that way! It's a laughable idea spread by those pathetic revolutionists and envious Taldans that our beloved Majestrix -- or her blessed, faithful servants -- would need to tamp... er, revise history. All those history books that contain alternate versions of events are just works of heretics and exist because they were confiscated by our righteous Inquisitors and Hellknights, who only wish to uphold the truth and law and order, and protect our glorious nation from the lies of our bitter, lesser neighbors!
Yet, even those blasphemous works do not deny the well-known, universally-recognised facts that Andoran is nothing more than a den of thieves or troublemakers and that Taldor is nothing more than a rapidly declining empire of degenerate, inbred fools whose main hobby is perfuming their flea-ridden wigs! ;P
You are of course completely correct, sir, that the many scribes and sages at work this very day across the length and breadth of Cheliax are seeking only to root out unpleasant and malicious propaganda supported by Cheliax's enemies, which is horribly biased and completely at odds with the proper version of events.
If I may correct you as to a couple of points, however: Taldor is long past the time when it had even the shadow of an empire. Cheliax, House Thrune foremost amongst its ranks, put paid to the Taldan empire centuries ago, and generously permitted the horsemen and camel-traders of Qadira to pick over the spoils. These days the ruler of Taldor is reliant on a herd of what are practically circus elephants to give his armies even the semblance of credibility, and has to employ hired foreign warriors from the northlands to protect him, so unreliable are his own troops.And whilst Andoran is governed by a pack of thieves and rogues of the worst possible types (by mortal standards), there are many citizens in Andoran who long, with a fierce desire, to see the day when those false leaders are overthrown and Andoran can be united with the empire of Cheliax.
So again we don't need one for a while, but I think it's rather silly to say that they're shouldn't be one ever.
Don't release supplements for the current edition right up to the release of the new edition, let there be a period of no new releases to the system line prior to the new edition. A lot of the upset was because the release was too soon and the last supplements were obsoleted months after they were released.
Right, so that the people deciding not to change systems, get screwed even earlier. That will endear people. If people know the system is changing and still choose to purchase products for a soon to be abandoned system, why shouldn't they be allowed to?
Oh, and don't keep it a secret you are developing it until right before you release it at GENCON, especially if you are doing so to sell supplements to the current edition right up until the release.
By right before you release it, do you mean by telling people a year in advance? Or was that too little time in your opinion? If PF changes in 10 years, perhaps they should make the announcement now, since 1 year is "right before".
I'm done with edition changes.
If/when Paizo goes 2E, I go bye-bye.
I'm done with edition changes.
If/when Paizo goes 2E, I go bye-bye.
me too, I will keep running what they released in those last ten years or whan ever it is they drop it on us.
just keep making stuff i worth buying for now.
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A 2nd edditon Pathfinder? Well I suppose it will eventually come along. For now I am enjoying the new pathfinder game. I have something new to play with and explore. And also, if I say wanted to use one of my 3.5 books, and say give a Dread Necormancer a try, I can still play one with a minimum of fuss. With the new pathfinder game I have something new to explore, while still being able to use my 3.5 stuff. I can have my cake and eat it too.
If the new version is so radically different that none of the material from the previous version is compatible and you have no intention to continue supporting the old version, then you are not screwing them sooner. What you are doing is creating a period where they can use those last releases without worrying if half the group will jump to the new version.
If WotC had stopped production of 3.5 material when they announced 4E, or as you would seem to prefer when they started work on 4E, a great, great many local game stores would have collapsed from lack of business. 4E being announced so far ahead of time was bad enough (our FLGS suffered a massive decrease in RPG sales as soon as the 4E announcement hit and the owner wasn't positive he was going to be able to stay in business long enough for 4E's launch to reinvigorate sales), but completely shutting down sales of new products for over a year? That's a ruinous business practice.
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If WotC had stopped production of 3.5 material when they announced 4E, or as you would seem to prefer when they started work on 4E, a great, great many local game stores would have collapsed from lack of business. 4E being announced so far ahead of time was bad enough (our FLGS suffered a massive decrease in RPG sales as soon as the 4E announcement hit and the owner wasn't positive he was going to be able to stay in business long enough for 4E's launch to reinvigorate sales), but completely shutting down sales of new products for over a year? That's a ruinous business practice.
Fortunately, many of the products Paizo puts out are useful without a lot of rules mechanics, and they'd therefore have lines of product that aren't negatively affected much by the production of a new rules version. Heck, the APs have lots of crunch, and people bought the 3.5 version right up to the release of Pathfinder RPG, and people are converting it to 4.0 as well - so even though it requires a little conversion work, the quality of their APs is such that people want them for more than just the crunch mechanical bits. :)
If your local gaming store lives or dies by the sales of a single product line (a single game system), then they are in a bad situation to begin with. From what you described, they will fold if WotC decides to discontinue D&D instead of release a 5th edition.
D&D has significantly more than 50% of the entire tabletop RPG market, and has serious influence even past that percent.
If D&D 3.0 hadn't come out, a HUGE portion of the market wouldn't even exist today, because d20 was a massive commercial success for all kinds of companies, including (gasp) Paizo. What Wizards does with D&D has massive trickle-down effects on the entire RPG market.
Even people who have never played D&D in their life hear about the new edition and some of them decide "hey, that sounds cool, I better start saving money so I can buy some of those books when they're released!". That money then doesn't get spent at the store, even though that gamer would never have bought a 3.5 rulebook.
There's also the fact that there was all kinds of speculation about 4E's licensing. It's quite likely that, had the license been less draconian, there would be a lot of 4E-based new editions to other gaming systems in the works, and again that's a cause of economic slowdown to game stores.
The only reason my FLGS managed to survive is because the owner IS smart and has diversified past just RPGs. He also sells CCGs, tabletop war games, and board games, he has a series of computers with the latest online games and MMOs installed for rent, he sells snacks and soda, and he has an attached game room with tables for gaming. He still suffered enough economic hardship with the 4E announcement that he wasn't sure if he'd be able to hold out. Pre-orders and a smart advertising campaign (I ran one of his "Open D&D night" games where I ran 3.5 and when it came out 4E games for anyone who wanted to play, taught rules, etc) kept him afloat until 4E came out. He mentioned that even miniature sales seriously plummeted after the 4E announcement. ALL of that kind of gaming is interconnected.
If the new version is so radically different that none of the material from the previous version is compatible and you have no intention to continue supporting the old version, then you are not screwing them sooner. What you are doing is creating a period where they can use those last releases without worrying if half the group will jump to the new version.
Perhaps I exaggerated the timeline a bit, but it was "no we aren't working on a new edition" and "no we aren't planning a new edition" and then "we're releasing a new edition next year." And all the while they were churning out books for the current edition. Perhaps I expressed myself poorly. The real issue was more with denying there was a new version in development for as long as possible in order to milk sales of the current version.
One year is not too little time. But I feel the release of a new version should be scheduled one year after the the release of the last supplement of the current version if the supplements will not be compatible with the new version.
Of course if the new edition is mostly backward compatible (like 3.0-3.5), then releasing supplements right up to the change would not be an issue in my eyes.
So let's say a new edition comes out in 10 years, you are ok with only supporting the old edition for 9 years. How is that not cut a year off of the support that the people that are going to stick with the older edition? They got 9 years of support not 10 years, that is less time.
Also, let's follow your logic here. A company comes out with a product one week before announcing they are going to be switching editions in one year. You seem to be saying that is fine, because it happened before the announcement, even if it was only one week before. Now if that same company releases a product for the current system after making that announcement that they will be switching in a year, suddenly that is unreasonable. So in the span of 2 weeks, with the announcment being halfway inbetween, it goes from being fine to being unreasonable?
If customers know that the products are not going to be support in the future and still purchase them, where is the harm? In fact it is the company that is really taking a risk here, going through all the R-and-D and spending the money to print, distribute, and advertise the books for a system that a good portion of their customers will have no intention of buying because they will be switching systems. I see them printing stuff until the end as being better for the longterm customer than for the company.
My logic is to allow the existing edition to "go stale". Let the old edition stagnate before marketing the new edition.
Well in that case, I think you'd have to allow two years. Allow one year where you just don't do any new products, maybe a few reprints if there is enough demand, but don't put out any new products. Then after that year announce that you have "now" decided that the time is appropriate for a new version of the game and spend the next year hyping it (and say you are playtesting, etc) put out some minor products tied to the new edition. And then after that next year release the new edition.
It has everything to do with the fact I love Pathfinder RPG and the 3.5 rules as they are. They don't need to be endlessly changed.
They wouldn't be changed.
It would be a new edition of the rules.
There are tons of games out there to achieve the variants a vast majority of people would want: Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, Experimental Might, Trailblazers, Grim Tales, Iron Heroes, Conan RPG, Fourth Edition D&D, True20, Microlite20, ... the list is practically endless.
None of these do what I want them to do.
Pick your options and houserule the system however you want instead of waiting for "the next Official™ edition".
But I don't want to houserule half the system. I'd have to change half the rules in official adventures, so I can as well not buy them.
Plus, the changes that would be in PF 2e would probably be too much to be called house rules. It would be a whole new edition, which would break rules compatibility, with some fundamental improvements.
Starting the cycles of editions again? Please, no. Enough is enough. If they decide to go with this kind of rince/repeat marketing, I'll just go get my AD&D books, launch a new campaign and leave PF aside just like I left Fourth edition go on its way.
It has always been the way, and it will remain to be the way.
It's not rince/repeat marketing, either. It's an evolving game. More time means more insight into the game, its workings, and how to improve it.
That and the Doctrine of Gradual Changes.
Again: I don't say the new game should be released next year. But never just doesn't cut it.
If they never changed D&D, we wouldn't have 3e, the best incarnation of the game so far.
I read this meme of "inevitable second edition" of Pathfinder in which "Paizo transforms the game to such an extent it truly becomes Paizo's own game system" all over the place, coming often from people who don't like 3.5 and PF RPG in the first place, and all I can do is shake my head in disbelief. Please, no. Not again.[/i]
I love 3e. I know it very well. It doen't matter to me whether Paizo makes it uniquely its own system or something like that.
I do think that every couple of decades or so, it is time for a new chapter in the never ending story that is D&D/PF.
I also think that while really, raelly good, PF isn't perfect yet. The game will probably never be perfect, but that doesn't mean you should not improve upon it. So after a sufficiently long period (I think something like 5 years, Paizo thinks more like 10), it's time to make those changes. This time around, it won't be a revision, like 3.5 was, or PF, but a new edition. It won't be a different game, either, as is the case with 4e. It will still be recognisable as the game that evolved from the works of Gygax and Arneson.
I'm done with edition changes.
If/when Paizo goes 2E, I go bye-bye.
Since we're making dramatic announcements:
If we don't have PF 2e by 2019, or the game isn't in serious development, I go bye-bye.
See? People threaten to take their money elsewhere in both cases. Just doesn't work as an argument.
Given that the main book has barely been out two months, aren't we being just a tad premature?
Hell no!
Even if the book won't be out until ten years from now, the first preparations should have begun over a year ago:
When writing PF 1.0, I hope Jason (and his cohorts) made notes about things that would work even better with a more drastic change, something beyond the scope of D&D 3.75 aka Pathfinder RPG. Or stuff that might even work in PF, but that would have been too much of a departure from current stuff.
And as the years fly by, as they write novels, accessories and adventures, they see more things that could use improvement, concepts that could use a change, and see how things evolve and how the game could evolve along with them.
And every now and then, they should look at their notes and see if the notes don't need revision and improvement.
That way, when the day comes and they start actually developing the game, they'll have a truckload of great insights.
What advice?
Don't bring out a second edition.
Given that Paizo's primary concern, which they have stated time and again, is printing adventures and that their own rules set was something they stated that they needed to be able to keep their adventures going with a rules set that their writers/editors felt comfortable with, I do not see any reason currently likely (if rules overload is judiciously avoided) for Paizo to ever need to print a version 2.0.
I do see a concern here: As time passes, the writers will find little things that could be better, would allow them to write their adventures even better than before. Little things, sure, but over time, they will add up. Plus, bigger things will emerge.
And their concerns have changed. They did start as an adventure writing company - and it's still their flagship product - but the time when that was virtually all they did has passed: They have a whole campaign setting (something you don't really need for writing adventures or even adventure paths) and other stuff, too.
And now they are the keepers of the spirit of the oldest pen and paper RPG in the world.
Bringing out a new edition will inevitably split the customer base, leaving behind those who for one reason or another don't want to switch to the new system.
On the other hand, stagnating is no better: People will grow bored with the rules and leave the company behind in search for fresh ideas.
There's always people who actually want change. Not every day, but they don't want the Auditors' dream, either.
Edition changeover also brings with it a risk of seriously damaging a company's reputation
I don't think so. Releasing a new edition that for the majority of customers is the better game AND that will bring new customers will only improve the company's reputation.
Especially if we're talking about Paizo, which won't just change everything in secret in their polar base and then backstab people with it.
at the very least with existing customers, and especially when publicity is mishandled.
Seriously: What is without risk?
I might add that the existing customers before PFRPG were big 3e fans for the most part. And still, they didn't throw a collective hissy fit.
In fact, it seemed that the book sold better than Paizo expected.
And publicity being mishandled? That always damages things. However, I don't think that Paizo will Wizards their next major edition release.
The current PFRPG rules set (though I would appreciate some clarifications on shadow conjuration) seems to be fairly solid
I agree! PFRPG is great. It's frikkin' awesome!
Still, it could be improved, especially if you made a new edition rather than a revision.
and I would hope that Paizo aspire to be the 'Monopoly
WHAT???
You want them to release "edition" after "edition" of games, all of them basically the same but with different numbers (which are all scaled up at the same rate so the ratios remain the same) and different themes as a blatant money grab?
Do we really need Pathfinder Star Wars (exactly the same as before, but the feats and classes are renamed for star wars stuff), Anniversary Edition Pathfinder, Modern Pathfinder (gold pieces are replaced by hundred-credit-bills and all weapons get a "laser" in their name to make them sound modern), localised Pathfinders for countries or even provinces, Pathfinder Disney Edition.....
YOU ARE MAD! MAD I TELL YOU! ;-P
I'm done with edition changes.
If/when Paizo goes 2E, I go bye-bye.
Since we're making dramatic announcements:
If we don't have PF 2e by 2019, or the game isn't in serious development, I go bye-bye.
See? People threaten to take their money elsewhere in both cases. Just doesn't work as an argument.
I'm not arguing anything. I'm telling you what I'm doing. I don't give a flip what others do. :)
I admit there are market factors which will determine the actual timing, and some products may be able to transition between editions. Adventure modules for example can more easily be converted than rules supplements, even and especially if the differences between editions is drastic. Releasing "101 rules options for elves" and then the next release two months later being a new edition that invalidates everything in that book is bad for the new edition as it forces a choice between editions before you can see what the new edition has to offer.
I'm not saying shut down the company between editions. I'm saying if the new edition isn't an evolution that can be easily converted to from the old edition, then let the old edition die first so the new can rise like a phoenix form the ashes. If conversion is as easy as 3.0 -> 3.5 then this becomes a non issue and shouldn't be a factor.
Funny, I mistakenly assumed your first post was a swip at 4e, but I can see now that is not the case, because what you are describing here is almost exactly what WotC did.
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Inn-Fighting Accessory Dungeons & Dragons Rob Heinsoo 10/2007
Sands of the Soul Novel Forgotten Realms Voronica Whitney-Robinson 10/2007
Stardeep Novel Forgotten Realms Bruce R. Cordell 10/2007
Protecting Palanthas Novel Dragonlance Douglas W. Clark 10/2007
Rise of the Seventh Moon Novel Eberron Rich Wulf 10/2007
Confessions of a Part-time Sorceress Accessory Dungeons & Dragons Shelly Mazzanoble 09/2007
Exemplars of Evil Accessory Dungeons & Dragons Robert J. Schwalb 09/2007
Fortress of the Yuan-ti Adventure Dungeons & Dragons Ari Marmell 09/2007
Grand History of the Realms Accessory Forgotten Realms Brian R. James 09/2007
D&D Dungeon Tiles V: Lost Caverns of the Underdark Accessory Dungeons & Dragons James Wyatt 09/2007
D&D Icons: Legend of Drizzt Scenario Pack Accessory Miniatures 09/2007
Orc King, The (Hardcover) Novel Forgotten Realms R.A. Salvatore 09/2007
Scholar of Decay Novel Ravenloft Tanya Huff 09/2007
Destiny Novel Dragonlance Tonya C. Cook and Paul B. Thompson 09/2007
Heirs of Prophecy Novel Forgotten Realms Lisa Smedman 09/2007
Last Mythal, The (Gift Set) Novel Forgotten Realms Richard Baker 09/2007
Legend of Drizzt, The (Gift Set, Books I-III) Novel Forgotten Realms R.A. Salvatore 09/2007
Legend of Drizzt, The (Gift Set, Books IV-VI) Novel Forgotten Realms R.A. Salvatore 09/2007
The Stolen Sun Novel Dragonlance Jeff Sampson 09/2007
Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk Adventure Dungeons & Dragons Jason Bulmahn, James Jacobs, Erik Mona 08/2007
Swords of Dragonfire Novel Forgotten Realms Ed Greenwood 08/2007
Black Wolf Novel Forgotten Realms Dave Gross 08/2007
Halfling's Gem, The Novel Forgotten Realms R.A. Salvatore 08/2007
Rebellion, The Novel Dragonlance Jean Rabe 08/2007
Storm Dragon Novel Eberron James Wyatt 08/2007
Storm of the Dead Novel Forgotten Realms Lisa Smedman 08/2007
Shadowstorm Novel Forgotten Realms Paul S. Kemp 08/2007
Hunter's Blades Novel Forgotten Realms R.A. Salvatore 08/2007
Lorwyn Novel Magic: The Gathering Cory J. Herndon and Scott McGough 08/2007
Death of a Darklord Novel Ravenloft Laurell K. Hamilton 08/2007
Practical Guide to Monsters, A Novel Dungeons & Dragons Nina Hess 08/2007
Player’s Handbook Core Game Product Dungeons & Dragons 06/2008
Dungeon Master’s Guide Core Game Product Dungeons & Dragons 06/2008
Monster Manual Core Game Product Dungeons & Dragons 06/2008
4th Edition Core Rulebook Gift Set Core Game Product Dungeons & Dragons 06/2008
H1 Keep on the Shadowfell Adventure Dungeons & Dragons Bruce Cordell and Mike Mearls 05/2008 *4e intro adventure*
City of Stormreach Accessory Eberron Keith Baker, Nicolas Logue, James “Grim” Desborough, C.A. Suleiman 02/2008
#Elder Evils Accessory Dungeons & Dragons Robert J. Schwalb 12/2007
Anauroch: The Empire of Shade Adventure Forgotten Realms Greg A. Vaughan, Skip Williams, and Thomas M. Reid 11/2007
#Rules Compendium Accessory D&D Core Chris Sims 10/2007
#Dragons of Eberron Accessory Eberron Keith Baker, Scott Fitzgerald Gray, Nicolas Logue, and Amber Scott 10/2007
Dungeon Survival Guide Accessory Dungeons & Dragons Bill Slavicsek, Christopher Perkins 10/2007
#Exemplars of Evil Accessory Dungeons & Dragons Robert J. Schwalb 09/2007
Fortress of the Yuan-ti Adventure Dungeons & Dragons Ari Marmell 09/2007
Grand History of the Realms Accessory Forgotten Realms Brian R. James 09/2007 *not a game supplement*
Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk Adventure Dungeons & Dragons Jason Bulmahn, James Jacobs, Erik Mona 08/2007
It appears that WotC put out a whopping 4 game supplements within that last year, one of which was the Rules Compendium which was just a collection of many of the rules already introduced (which makes sense if you are ending your support for the system, you don't put out a compendium at the very beginning of its lifetime). And the last one was put out 6 months prior to the release of the new system.
You guys don't have any vision of the future, do you? Is no one memorizing divination spells these days?
The next big thing in PnP RPGs, whether it is DND, Pathfinder or whatever, will not have a simple rule system. Very few will ever take the time to learn how the overly cumbersome mechanics work. It will have an almost unlimited supply of suppliments. It will be out in less than ten years. It will be everything that all of you are raging out against. And you will all gladly shelf every one of your current books away (for nostalgia's sake), eat it up like candy and think that it's the greatest thing to ever happen to your favorite RPG(s)...and it likely will be.
The crystal ball is getting clearer every day. Not sure why you guys can't see it.
It appears that WotC put out a whopping 4 game supplements within that last year, one of which was the Rules Compendium which was just a collection of many of the rules already introduced (which makes sense if you are ending your support for the system, you don't put out a compendium at the very beginning of its lifetime). And the last one was put out 6 months prior to the release of the new system.Well then color me corrected. I guess I just showed how little attention I paid to their release schedule. I will also admit to having a poor sense of the passage of time. It seems my perception of the pace of events is mistaken and I stand corrected. I must remember to check facts better before posting.
My point isn't to "win" or anything, but instead to point out that if we say not to do what WotC did and then suggest they do exactly the same thing, well there is something wrong there.
Frankly, I think the way Paizo went with their game is the right way to do it. Keep cranking out the current stuff right up until the switch over, just inform people of the switch over. Those like myself that will not switch can still pick up the items right up to the end. Those that will switch and don't mind doing some conversions or just want the fluff can also pick them up and those that won't can just sit on their hands until the new products come out. The problem isn't when you stop producing but when do you inform your customers of the change over. As long as you inform the customer and give them the choice, most people will let you slide by.
WotC's bad press, initially, had more to do with mods heavy handedly ban posters for suggesting a new system was in the works and then the developers come out and saying "we have been working on the new system for sometime". Now that is something that Paizo should definitely learn from and avoid.
I got a crazy thought. How about PfRPG v2.0 around the time an average gamers hard cover book has the cover fall off from use? Basically fix typos, make rule clarification and some legitimate 'oops we should have done it this way' stuff.
Maybe it does not meet the 'v2.0 test' but we have to buy new books someday.
I would prefer that a PF2e would be an evolution. Say, anywhere about 7-12 years from now. At 3-4 books per year announced, that would give about 1-2 books per year that produce alternate rules, or new rules. Compile all the things that work. Tweak core mechanics to mesh. Then repackage & sell. This would still, most likely, be compatible with what people are running at the time. Shiny new artwork & you have PF 2e. Nothing 'revolutionary', just 'evolutionary.'
...and an overwhelming majority cried out that they don't ever, in a million years, want to see a Pathfinder v2. They don't even want to entertain the idea. You probably just want this thread to quietly fall into the archives. I've still got burn marks on me.Heh, I wasn't really looking for a discussion on what specific rules would be changed etc. but more along the lines of how might they go about introducing a new version of a game in general to a community without causing the kind of upset that *you know who* did twice with D&D.Schedule it for no less than 10 years from the release of the current edition. Don't release supplements for the current edition right up to the release of the new edition, let there be a period of no new releases to the system line prior to the new edition. A lot of the upset was because the release was too soon and the last supplements were obsoleted months after they were released. Oh, and don't keep it a secret you are developing it until right before you release it at GENCON, especially if you are doing so to sell supplements to the current edition right up until the release. Most importantly, don't lie about how drastically you are changing the system and spring it as a surprise.
I think that covers the list of mistakes to avoid you are referring to.
+1
and I would like to add, make it compatible to the previous edition.