Looks solid to me.
Quickstep is fine, though can't you use acrobatics to do that anyway?
Probably wouldn't hurt to add Lightning Stance to the bonus feats list as well, unless you feel it is too powerful.
Improved Skirmish (greater skirmish?) from C.Scoundrel (I think) is also an option that could be added to bonus feats (though it might be better used as a standard feat slot... not sure).
Personally, I'll do it a lot quicker:
Use the ranger class.
Get Vital Strike feats, as well as Wind Stance and related
There.
Maybe go as far as exchange spellcasting for trapfinding (as rogue) and a maybe a couple (maybe fixed) rogue talents (movement/stealth related talents).
You might also use the feats described above in a new ranger fighting style: "Skirmisher"
The only addition I would (and did) make is an ability that allows the scout to move 10' with a 5' step, allowing them to use their skirmish with a full attack.
Personally, I think this completely defeats the skirmish ability's purpose. I'd certainly not allow anything even approaching this in my games.
The ability to move 10ft with a 5ft step can be pretty powerful for manouverbility in combat, so I worry a little about the dip prospects. What level does the scout gain this ability? I'd recommend 8th level, since no one will dip for 8 levels, and only then will the scout really find it useful.
Personally, I'll do it a lot quicker:
Use the ranger class.
Scout is unique enough that it can function as its own class, both mechanically (several interesting high level abilities, paired with skirmish which is very different from a SA, unlike sudden strike), and thematically (skilled, evasive forward observer rather than pure combatant).
There were several skirmish-optimized builds that managed to get skirmish on virtually every attack, I just don't remember how they did it... I thought it was acrobatics (jump/tumble), but I apparently misremembered. And doing that isn't all that powerful btw, rogues can almost always get off sneak attacks as long as they have competent party members, while several other classes get far more damage on the whole. And a 10ft move isn't always beneficial, since it forces a character out of tactical positions, or may just be impossible due to being blocked in.
What it DOES do however, is makes archers more viable, by giving them a worthwhile damage bonus.
My guess is he was talking about the DC 40 'tumble' check presented in oriental adventures that allows a 5' step to cover 10 feet instead. It was one of few ways to get skirmish on a full attack in 3.5 (other than finding a way to milk extra move actions of course)
I rather like quick-step, and I'm considering stealing it from you to make high BAB required general use feat.
EDIT: Oh, and Nero, he placed it at level 12
Oh. Yeah, that would be it.
There were several skirmish-optimized builds that managed to get skirmish on virtually every attack, I just don't remember how they did it
Well, Travel Devotion was the biggest offender.
@ KaeYoss
Please don't turn this into a "Just use this class" thread. It's a thread to ask about updating the non-core scout class. If you just want to use ranger, thats fine, but not everyone does, and they aren't going to start a thread like this if they do.
Edit: Back to topic though, I do think the 10ft step can open up alot of problems. For one, since they won't be relying as much on Rapid shot to gain multiple attacks, the class becomes more melee focused, specifically I see two-weapon builds being popular. Such an ability can really alter the real (not saying that's a bad thing really, since I like classes that favour multiple fighting styles) but being 12th level to get such a relevent ability kinda stumps me a little.
I might be inclinded to granta 1/Day use at say...4th level (so it's still not dipworthy) and build up, maybe to the point of infinate uses at higher levels. It'll allow the same flexibility, and keep the feel of the class more consistant.
I do think the 10ft step can open up alot of problems. For one, since they won't be relying as much on Rapid shot to gain multiple attacks, the class becomes more melee focused, specifically I see two-weapon builds being popular. Such an ability can really alter the real (not saying that's a bad thing really, since I like classes that favour multiple fighting styles) but being 12th level to get such a relevent ability kinda stumps me a little.
I might be inclinded to granta 1/Day use at say...4th level (so it's still not dipworthy) and build up, maybe to the point of infinate uses at higher levels. It'll allow the same flexibility, and keep the feel of the class more consistant.
Now that you mention it, dual weilders are a bit of a problem... but aren't they with SA characters too? I mean, with Adaptive Flanker, or Island of Blades stance, or even a summoned critter, SA becomes far more deadly than constant skirmish (exactly double deadly, in fact).
Hmm. Since rogues require feats to get off their constant SA, perhaps sacrificing a bonus feat to get the ability would be in order? Not sure it's really necessary though.
Personally, I'll do it a lot quicker:
Use the ranger class.
Get Vital Strike feats, as well as Wind Stance and relatedThere.
Maybe go as far as exchange spellcasting for trapfinding (as rogue) and a maybe a couple (maybe fixed) rogue talents (movement/stealth related talents).
You might also use the feats described above in a new ranger fighting style: "Skirmisher"
Not trying to say not to do this conversion. Just wanting to give a shout a KaeYoss, that looks pretty good as new fighting style. If you combined ideas, could really be a non-casting ranger that quite a few on the boards would like to see. Maybe you could start a new thread to put it together?
You might want to make the "10 foot step" class feature a bonus feat the Scout can choose at 8th level. Maybe require BAB +6, 6 or 8 ranks in Acrobatics, Dodge and Mobility. Maybe Spring Attack. It would probably be useful several other classes, like barbarians, monks, and rogues.
@ KaeYoss
Please don't turn this into a "Just use this class" thread.
Too late! Everyone is forbidden from speaking of non-ranger scouts now! You heard me!
It's a thread to ask about updating the non-core scout class. If you just want to use ranger, thats fine, but not everyone does, and they aren't going to start a thread like this if they do.
On the other hand, it's my opinion that the concept can now be created with the classes and feats we have, and for those who didn't know it, that is good information.
Contributor
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Assuming one does want to update the Scout class, would the addition of Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps to the Bonus Feats list be out of line?
I've never read any guidelines for how many bonus feats are "too many" for a class, but those two feats seem to make a lot of thematic sense (as do Wind Stance and Lightning Stance).
Assuming one does want to update the Scout class, would the addition of Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps to the Bonus Feats list be out of line?
I've never read any guidelines for how many bonus feats are "too many" for a class, but those two feats seem to make a lot of thematic sense (as do Wind Stance and Lightning Stance).
I'd say the important thing is to not use too many sources.
If you use seventeen feat books as sources for bonus feats, it might be too much.
Other than that, make the lists appropriate. Stick to the core rules and a basic list of extra books and it's okay.
Now that you mention it, dual weilders are a bit of a problem... but aren't they with SA characters too? I mean, with Adaptive Flanker, or Island of Blades stance, or even a summoned critter, SA becomes far more deadly than constant skirmish (exactly double deadly, in fact).
I don't really have an issue with duel weilders, it's just you won't see them until you get this ability. I can see it resulting it quite a few scouts who use a bow, then suddenly just "switch" once they reach a certain level.
I wouldn't mind such an ability, but I surgested a lower-level limited-use alternative so that the feel is still the same, so that if someone does use two weapons, it'll most likely happen at lower levels too.
Minor thought:
My preference re: enabling a full attack action while moving 10',
would be to NOT treat it as a 5' Step for purposes of AoO avoidance.
Or at the least, make that aspect kick in at a higher level.
Actually, the class could probably use something like "Rogue Tricks".
Thpe more mobility-orientated Rogue Tricks could probably work fine, but work up a few more catering especially to Scouts. The 10' Step thing (in different tiers, as explained above) could be part o this feature (with level requirements).
/my2cents
The only way I would allow a new, Pathfinderized Skirmish ability is if it specifically stated that a single character may not gain extra damage dice from skirmish more than once per round. Period. This way the class wouldn't break multiple spells and magic items, let alone any future class abilities people might want to create for future classes.
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One of my players is a scout so i'm very interested in this topic.
So far we decided to improve skirmish ability from 1/4 levels to 1/3 levels which adds a couple of D6 at 20th level.
I also added freely the feats vital strikes at lvl 6 Improved Vital stike lvl 11 and Greater Vital strike at level 16.
The rest is unchanged.
Of course I understand that it makes dual wielding and/or full attacks completely pointless...
the quickstep option is something to consider probably. I would think that it would still provoke AoO if you move further than 5'.
Also pick that idea of 1/day + (Dex bonus) at 3rd or 4th level + 1 every level until level 12 where it could be done an infinte number of times.
Honestly, I don't think the Scout class needs much updating. It's pretty well in line with the PF core classes power wise. I think adding Fleet to it's Bonus Feat list. Update Agile to Agile Maneuvers. I'll grant it doesn't have a capstone ability as such, just 3 bonus's at 20th.
I kind of like the 10-foot thing, but, it's also doable without a class ability or a feat, just using Acrobatics (granted, very hard). I think maybe a Scout Prestige class that could do it easier would be more appropriate for that as a class feature.
Honestly, I don't think the Scout class needs much updating. It's pretty well in line with the PF core classes power wise. I think adding Fleet to it's Bonus Feat list. Update Agile to Agile Maneuvers. I'll grant it doesn't have a capstone ability as such, just 3 bonus's at 20th.Since they already get fast movement (twice, adding 10 feet each time), doesn't adding Fleet as a bonus feat seem a little redundant? That's the only reason I didn't add it.
A little redundant, but they could take it as a non-bonus feat anyway. And it's in theme. I'd say to add in Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps because they are in theme, but those are completely erased by a class feature. I even thought about Self Sufficient, but they don't get heal as a class skill (which I really kind of feel they should, the lone scout healing him/herself), but they already get tons of them, and can take that one as a regular feat anyway.
As for updating Agile to Agile Maneuvers, they are two completely different feats. One, Agile (which was obsoleted by the skill consolidation), is a +2 to two skills, the other, Agile Maneuvers applies Dex instead of Str to CMB. You could add Agile Maneuvers but it is hardly an update to Agile. (I'm nitpicking your choice of the word update. I apologize for being in a bit of a critical mood as I write this.)
Not at all, it was a poor choice of wording. What I really meant was 'Update Agile with Agile Maneuvers', with, not to. Since Agile goes away, it needs something to replace it, and Agile Maneuvers is a good option.
I kind of like the 10-foot thing, but, it's also doable without a class ability or a feat, just using Acrobatics (granted, very hard).That use of the Acrobatics skill is not in the core rules and is not exactly common knowledge only being referenced in Oriental Adventures to my knowledge. I'm not saying it is invalid, merely that it is relatively obscure and not commonly known or used.
True,
I had forgot it was not core. I still think a prestige class would be more appropriate, honestly. That's a powerful ability for any class, maybe a capstone ability or prestige class ability. I honestly wish there were good prestige classes for the scout, but I have yet to run into one that I like.
I still think a prestige class would be more appropriate, honestly. That's a powerful ability for any class, maybe a capstone ability or prestige class ability. I honestly wish there were good prestige classes for the scout, but I have yet to run into one that I like.Yes, it is a powerful ability. That is why I have it as class feature of only one class and recommend it not be available below 8th (and personally have it at 12th). If you want to use it for a capstone that works just as well. The idea is to keep it primarily as an enabling factor for another ability of the class. As long as it isn't too easily accessible to other classes by dipping a few levels of scout and you consider it level appropriate compared to what other classes get it should be balanced. It is however an option and not one you have to use.
Your prestige class idea is not a bad option either and I agree there is a shortage of good prestige classes for the scout.
A decent little 5 level prestige class, with that as the capstone, which can be qualified for at say, 8th level (which makes a 14th level ability). Something that continues to boost the Skirmish ability, and grants a few other class features, but the big feature is the 10 foot move. Hmmm, I may try to work one up.
I've cheated, and made a "skirmish" ranger combat style for +1d6/+1 skirmish for each combat style feat you get in it. Then I added some higher-level "ranger talents" so you could pick up blindense, etc. Because really, the only scouts I saw in 3.5 were multiclassed ranger/scouts with the Swift Hunter feat.
The only way I would allow a new, Pathfinderized Skirmish ability is if it specifically stated that a single character may not gain extra damage dice from skirmish more than once per round. Period. This way the class wouldn't break multiple spells and magic items, let alone any future class abilities people might want to create for future classes.So... you rule that a single character can only gain sneak attack damage dice once per round?
Lets add this up shall we Loopy?
Legitimate Targets (targets physically vulnerable):
Sneak attack = SkirmishApplicable Situations
Sneak Attack (Flanking, Denied Dex, Balancing...) vs Skirmish (any time you move at least 10 feet in a round.)
Damage:
average 1d6/2 levels sneak attackaverage 1d6/4 levels skirmish
Oh, and just to add one more vicious point.
Number of times per round without expending special effort and resources to make it happen:
Skirmish- once
Sneak Attack- as many times as you have attacks that apply.All in all, I'd say if a character is willing to spend the resources necessary to gain multiple skirmish per round, then he deserves it.
Okay, let's put it this way.
New Rogue Talent - Skirmish: Whenever you move 10 feet or more in one round, you gain +1 dodge bonus. Additionally, you may gain your sneak attack dice for up to one attack as long as you have moved at least ten feet that round.
New Rogue Talent - Scout: Gain +5' movement while in light or no armor.
New Rogue Advanced Talent - Greater Skirmish: Increase the dodge bonus from Skirmish by +1. Additionally, you may gain your sneak attack dice for up to two attacks as long as you have moved at least ten feat that round.
Feat - Improved Skirmish: Improve the dodge bonus from Skirmish by an additional +1.
Feat - Supreme Skirmish: Improve the dodge bonus from Greater Skirmish by an additional +1.
So for 3 rogue talents and 3 feats, get skirmish twice per round, +10' movement and +4 ac while running around in light armor. Movement increases are easy to get. Maybe also multiclass a few levels of Ranger or Paladin to round the character out.
That's a pretty cool one too.
I don't think the Scout class really needs to be updated much. All it really needs is the skill list altered and the list of bonus feats rounded out.
10 foot step would be nice capstone ability at 20th, but they get a lot already there (blindsight, a bonus feat, and +1 to init and fort saves).
I played one from level 1 to around level 13 or so, and for most of its career, that character was the primary tank....in a party with an aristocrat/bard, a wizard/truenamer, and a cohort rogue/cleric. Eventually, we also got ourselves a paladin.
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I play in a game with a scout (3.5) and the scout has been nothing but a thorn in the DMs side. The movement and skirmish damage has proven too much for the DM to handle and I think its beginning to annoy him. Adding in things like a quiver of elhona and a wizard in the party with craft arms and armor, the scouts bow does some serious damage in most situations.
Hes not a very experienced DM either so I'm often reminding him about things like soft cover, wind conditions, and concealment from poor visibility affecting ranged attacks. (although this is alienating the scout player who seems to think I'm picking on him.) Personally I would suggest he put in more opponents that are immune to sneak attack/skirmish or more spellcasters or locations that restrict movement, but so far we have been fighting mostly yuan-ti, humanoids, and magical beasts (owlbears and werewolves in the last two encounters).
My only suggestion for converting the scout would be to remove the bonus feats at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 and instead replace them with some of the rogue talents suggested above (and a capstone ability at 20). This would make the class more specialised and easier to control as new feats can add a bit too much power to some classes.
Since Skirmish is like sneak attack, the restrictions lifted on Pathfinder sneak attack would further inflate the power of the skirmish ability so I wouldnt increase the progression at all.
I dont like the idea of the 10ft move + full attack because this would only inflate the problems with the scout. The scout has enough power to put it on par with most classes through a single attack.
The scout has enough power to put it on par with most classes through a single attack.
Errr... no, no it doesn't. Scouts win the "who does the most damage in a single standard action" battle against other medium-BAB non-spellcasting classes, but that's it. Full BAB characters will outdo him with class features (Smite) and feats (Vital Strike). Spellcasters dramatically outdo him with spells, even with damage-dealing spells being the least optimal of all the spell choices they could make.
When you're talking about damage done over an entire round, scouts lose out to just about everyone, unless they get to full-attack.
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The scout has enough power to put it on par with most classes through a single attack.Errr... no, no it doesn't. Scouts win the "who does the most damage in a single standard action" battle against other medium-BAB non-spellcasting classes, but that's it. Full BAB characters will outdo him with class features (Smite) and feats (Vital Strike). Spellcasters dramatically outdo him with spells, even with damage-dealing spells being the least optimal of all the spell choices they could make.
When you're talking about damage done over an entire round, scouts lose out to just about everyone, unless they get to full-attack.
I fail to see how a scout cannot outdamage a fighter ranger or paladin with skirmish. Lets make it clear that I was comparing the scout to the pathfinder classes not against them meaning that I think they are well balanced to those classes already without modification while vastly superior to their 3.5 counterparts.
But, since your comparing smite evil from pathfinder, a 20th level paladin can deal an extra 20 or 40 points of damage per attack, while a skirmish can do an average 15 possible 30 (ignoring base weapon damage). Vital strike works for the scout as well as any medium BAB class. This comparison becomes blurred when you consider allowable targets. As for spellcasters I wont argue this since we both know spells are far more limited per day compared to weapons.
The point your missing here is the scout class as a whole is superior not just for its single attack damage but also in its versatility on viable targets and on maneuverability.
Smite is effective against one evil aligned target only (and dependent on uses per day) while skirmish works on any creature that can be sneak attacked and is usable every round. The target doesnt even have to be denied dex to feel the full force of a skirmish attack.
The scout also has freedom to avoid retaliation while dealing skirmish damage, this is not possible for most classes who have to get within harms way to use their extra damage abilities (spellcasters excluded) and this is the main reason why I find the scout powerful and unbalanced. As long as they have room to move they can stay out of melee and yet deal an extra 5d6 damage every round.
I would hate to see scouts gaining the ability to deal +5d6 damage 3 times per round (or more with haste) witout fear of reprisal, I reminds me of the old White Dwarf Archer class from 1st edition AD&D way back in the day that used to dominate most games shortly before 2nd edition came out.
The scout also has freedom to avoid retaliation while dealing skirmish damage, this is not possible for most classes who have to get within harms way to use their extra damage abilities (spellcasters excluded) and this is the main reason why I find the scout powerful and unbalanced. As long as they have room to move they can stay out of melee and yet deal an extra 5d6 damage every round.
Paladins can smite with a longbow. Fighters can get weapon training, weapon specialization, and so on with a longbow. Rangers get their bonuses with a longbow. Even rogues can get their sneak attack with bows, although that requires them to attack from stealth or be invisible. Barbarians are about the only physical combat class that isn't really very compatible with ranged attacks, although I suppose they could use throwing weapons.
The scout also has freedom to avoid retaliation while dealing skirmish damage, this is not possible for most classes who have to get within harms way to use their extra damage abilities (spellcasters excluded) and this is the main reason why I find the scout powerful and unbalanced. As long as they have room to move they can stay out of melee and yet deal an extra 5d6 damage every round.Paladins can smite with a longbow. Fighters can get weapon training, weapon specialization, and so on with a longbow. Rangers get their bonuses with a longbow. Even rogues can get their sneak attack with bows, although that requires them to attack from stealth or be invisible. Barbarians are about the only physical combat class that isn't really very compatible with ranged attacks, although I suppose they could use throwing weapons.
Compound bows with +8 or +9 str requirement for when they rage, and a smaller compound bow for when they aren't. Gives them a huge bonus on damage with the bow.
Yeah, though that gets expensive if you want them to be magical.
On the other hand, that's a poster child for higher-enchantment magic arrows (see other thread for that whole debate).
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The only changes i'd consider for the scout would be:
skills to bring in line with PF (as discussed above)
upgrade HD to d10 (in line with other PF class changes)
Give him a good/fighter BAB
His biggest priblem is his primary ability - Skirmish. This is a very limited ability - there is a caveat that limits what can be targeted (not undead, constructs etc) and you do need to move 10', this limits him to one attack a round - no full attacks. He needs something like the dhervish dance. An ability limited to a number of uses per day (like, say smite) that gives him the ability to move during a full attack - doesn't need to kick in until level 6 (with fighter BAB)or 8 (with rogue BAB). Perhaps increasing uses as so (I assume fighter BAB)..
Level 6 - 1/day
Level 8 - 2/day
Level 10 - 3/day etc
Or like the bard and barbarian - simply add to skirmish something like: A character can skirmish for 6 rounds per day +2/level above first. Rounds need not be consecutive. During this time a character can move up to his full movement and attack at any point in that movement, If he has a high enough BAB he can make multiple attacks at any point in the round but MUST move at least 10' between each such attack.
For some balance it's worth noting there is no protection against Attacks of Opportunity so the dance could be inherintly dangerous.
Could be open to multiclass abuse - paladin or barbarian with a few levels of scout to get that movement in combat but you still give up the benefits of non-multiclassing so ...
And BTW, Skirmish only works with MELEE WEAPONS, not RANGED WEAPONS.
Uh, no, wrong. Nowhere is the word "melee weapon" even mentioned in the Scout class entry. In fact, it explicitly says "Scouts can apply this extra damage to ranged attacks made while skirmishing, but only if the target is within 30 feet".