Powerful verging on Broken. Not quite to the point where it will completely wreck balance in a party, but Smite in particular can be way, way too effective in certain fairly common situations, making it a real chore to plan effective and interesting encounters as a DM.
In pre-printed adventures (that by their nature can't take the presence of a paladin into account) I'd say that Paladins can frequently become outright broken.
Highly Balanced. Finally =)
Edit because of the post above. I sense a Flame War starting all over again ;) AND I LIKE IT!
I think that some unfortunate Bolding in the OP is making people post which category they AGREE WITH, when they should be approving the selection of categories in general.
I find the array of potential responses to be a fair coverage of the various sides of the issue.
Nothing could possibly stop this thread from becoming a poll itself now.
Please don't use this thread for debating the balance of the paladin.
For next week's poll, I want to query people on their thoughts of the balance of the Paladin class since this seems to be a contentious issue. I know there was a large thread about this very topic, but my search engine has failed me and I can't find it.
I am looking for categories that sum up the different positions that people have taken on the topic. Here are the categories I am going with so far:
Which statement best reflects how you feel about the changes to the Pathfinder Paladin class:
WEAK: The paladin's limitations (and their subsequent penalties), which include being of Lawful Good alignment, following a strict Code of Conduct and being limited in who they may associate themselves with, are significant enough that the powers they have gained are still overshadowed by the limitations of the class.
BALANCED: Although the paladin's smite is far more effective now, and they gained Mercy and Aura abilities, these are well balanced against the paladin's limitations (and their subsequent penalties) which include being of Lawful Good alignment, following a strict Code of Conduct and being limited in who they may associate themselves with.
POWERFUL: The paladin's new abilities are perhaps a bit more powerful than other martial characters, but it's not "game breaking" powerful.
BROKEN: The smite ability lasts far too long, and is replenished far too quickly. The added abilities of Mercy and the Auras (especially Aura of Justice), plus being allowed to multi-class without penalty, all makes the Paladin far too powerful compared to the other classes.
If you feel that any of these categories could use some tinkering / refinement (or if you could just redirect me to the appropriate thread) please let me know.
Thanks
Powerful, and the link to the thread is click me
My suggestion: if you want to make an actually useful poll, never offer explanation for the headings. That biases the poll. For example, what if I feel that the paladin is balanced even without the alignment and code restrictions? There's no poll option for me. If you leave it at "balanced", then there is.
If you want to make a truly unbiased poll, get a degree in it; if you want to make a reasonably unbiased poll, do the standard "on a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being extremely underpowered and 10 being extremely overpowered, how would you rate the balance of the pathfinder paladin class?".
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Powerful, maybe broke, IDK.... and yet... so cool I don't effing care.
I'm not balanced, why do I want my rpg to be?
Best response ever.
I believe the paladin should be a little more powerful than the average class. On your poll, I would say they are finally "balanced" (after being crappy in 3 and 3.5).
I think that some unfortunate Bolding in the OP is making people post which category they AGREE WITH, when they should be approving the selection of categories in general.Thanks for mentioning that.
** This thread is not a poll -- I will be posting an actual poll in 1-2 days. **
I am just looking for poll categories right now, or for comments/revisions on my proposed categories.
Thank you.
You want a pre-poll matey? To much trouble I tells yah. Just do the poll here and get it over with arrgh.
I know I am a flaming skull of death, but I dont think we make noise so I stole the pirate noise.
I LOVE the new Paladin. Smite Evil rocks the collective world of Evil Outsiders and Undead. It should remain unchanged. Why? Paladins are supposed to be the absolute BANE of these creatures. They are one of the few PC's that it's pretty reasonable to have powerful monsters from these catagories fear and run away from. As they grow in power they should gain serious rep. Paladins are supposed to be on the rare side anyways, one you have one getting powerful without getting smoked, the opposition starts getting worried.
What helps the cause more, than when in the middle of the war-torn, demon invaded city, a high level Pally strides past the huddled survivors lying in the street and tells the Dark Prince(tm) to go f@!# himself before decapitating him? Nothing, that's what!
What helps the cause more, than when in the middle of the war-torn, demon invaded city, a high level Pally strides past the huddled survivors lying in the street and tells the Dark Prince(tm) to go f@!# himself before decapitating him? Nothing, that's what!
??
I've seen a lot of conjecture and some contrived playtesting but don't have any first hand experience with the class so it's tough for me to say. From what I've seen 99% of discussion about the class is people who haven't actually played in a real campaign with the class.
So maybe you should limit your poll to folks who have played for a bit in a long term game with a paladin involved.
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Powerful, maybe broke, IDK.... and yet... so cool I don't effing care.
I'm not balanced, why do I want my rpg to be?
Dude, seriously. Houston is better. Move here now.
Edit: And, yeah, I think the four responses cover the grounds, poll-wise.
My personal, 1e weaned opinion about the paladin's re-found prowess?
It's about time.
Good stuff. As someone who's been playing a PF paladin for a while now I look forward to my single vote being drowned out in a sea of people who may not have played it but pretend they have.
Incidentally, Carvaggio just recently returned from the dead, so I've got some opinions on how broken his class isn't.
Good stuff. As someone who's been playing a PF paladin for a while now I look forward to my single vote being drowned out in a sea of people who may not have played it but pretend they have.
Incidentally, Carvaggio just recently returned from the dead, so I've got some opinions on how broken his class isn't.
No offense to the OP but this is why I'm cynical about internet polls in general and in particular with regards to controversial issues.
POWERFUL-bordering broken
As a DM I like to structure my adventures in layers which culminate in an epic battle against the Big Bad Guy. Now the paladin walks in and says high there Mr Balrog meet mr Smite evil.
All of a sudden the paladin is a major threat to the BBG and I have to make sure that he has some minons to toss in the way of the paladin or some way to keep him at arms length or the fight is over to quickly.
Now the day of the BBG fight and the Paladin calls in sick...... He was going to be the big gun for the party and without him the party has little chance to defeat the battle I set up. If any other player had called in they could tough it out or I can make a little tweak.
That is the problem with the Paladin.
I've seen a lot of conjecture and some contrived playtesting but don't have any first hand experience with the class so it's tough for me to say. From what I've seen 99% of discussion about the class is people who haven't actually played in a real campaign with the class.
So maybe you should limit your poll to folks who have played for a bit in a long term game with a paladin involved.
Good idea, I'll add that qualifier into the question. Thanks.
Qualifier: Talking out of my ass, have no real polling knowledge.
I don't think that would keep any significant number of people who haven't played the class from participating (I'm sure a non-trivial number of people skip reading any headers and jump straight to the buttons, aside from the people who simply wouldn't care). If you want to restrict it to people who have play experience, you might include a separate question as to whether they've played the class yet (phrased in way that doesn't make it seem they <i>should</i> have had play time before answering) and then disregard the answers of those who said no. Personally I'd be interested to see what kind of correlation might pop up between play experience and the power ranking.
POWERFUL-bordering broken
As a DM I like to structure my adventures in layers which culminate in an epic battle against the Big Bad Guy. Now the paladin walks in and says high there Mr Balrog meet mr Smite evil.
All of a sudden the paladin is a major threat to the BBG and I have to make sure that he has some minons to toss in the way of the paladin or some way to keep him at arms length or the fight is over to quickly.
Now the day of the BBG fight and the Paladin calls in sick...... He was going to be the big gun for the party and without him the party has little chance to defeat the battle I set up. If any other player had called in they could tough it out or I can make a little tweak.
That is the problem with the Paladin.
If any combat oriented player misses the BBEG fight it throws a wrench in things. That has nothing to do with the paladin.
As far as the BBEG worrying about the paladin it could be true, but it depends on the BBEG. Due to laziness I have not posted my last AoW campaign update but the party which got luck with the deck of many things, now has a 16-17th level paladin. They took on a flying devil(CR14). The name of the monster escapes me at the moment. He grappled the paladin, and had his way with him. That makes the 3rd session in a row the paladin has been thrashed for doing to much damage as far as the bad guys were concerned.
Edit:Oops. We are doing this in the wrong thread.
PS:Polls are never as affective at giving information and points of view as an actual debate. Any poll or statistic can be twisted to support another argument.
POWERFUL-bordering broken
As a DM I like to structure my adventures in layers which culminate in an epic battle against the Big Bad Guy. Now the paladin walks in and says high there Mr Balrog meet mr Smite evil.
All of a sudden the paladin is a major threat to the BBG and I have to make sure that he has some minons to toss in the way of the paladin or some way to keep him at arms length or the fight is over to quickly.
Now the day of the BBG fight and the Paladin calls in sick...... He was going to be the big gun for the party and without him the party has little chance to defeat the battle I set up. If any other player had called in they could tough it out or I can make a little tweak.
That is the problem with the Paladin.
To me it sounds like you haven't really dealt with the issue other than hypothetically. If a lone paladin is a huge threat to a Balor then you aren't running the balor right. Way too many high level at will powers, way too hard to pin down.
Polls kinda suck, imo.
The real question here [going by the majority of posts] is the issue with Smite Evil.
Now it reads "Smite until dead" many feel this is too powerful. So shouldn't we be looking at a balancing ability that is good but not "smite until dead"
Maybe...
Smite only lasts for 1 round?
OR
Smite last for 1 round plus 1 more round for every 6 Paladin levels you have [2 @ level 6, 3 @ level 12, 4 @ level 18]?
OR
Smite lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier [minimum 1]?
Any other ideas?
Any other ideas?
I proposed this in the "smite evil is evil" thread:
Make it so that Smite Evil only lasts for as long as you're actively attacking or attempting to attack the target. If on any round you don't include the smite target as the target of an attack (even if it misses) or in the area of effect of a spell (even if it ends up having no effect), or you aren't attempting to get into range to do so, smite ends and you have to spend another swift action and another smite per day to turn it back on when you're ready to get back to attacking the guy.
It's blatantly stolen from the paladin's mark class ability from 4E, but IMO it works pretty well if you don't like the lack of conditions in the standard pathfinder smite.
Polls kinda suck, imo.
The real question here [going by the majority of posts] is the issue with Smite Evil.
Now it reads "Smite until dead" many feel this is too powerful. So shouldn't we be looking at a balancing ability that is good but not "smite until dead"
Maybe...
Smite only lasts for 1 round?
OR
Smite last for 1 round plus 1 more round for every 6 Paladin levels you have [2 @ level 6, 3 @ level 12, 4 @ level 18]?
OR
Smite lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier [minimum 1]?
Any other ideas?
I would suggest going to the smite evil is evil thread which I posted a link to recently to see why smite is not as good as it looks on paper.
To me it sounds like you haven't really dealt with the issue other than hypothetically. If a lone paladin is a huge threat to a Balor then you aren't running the balor right. Way too many high level at will powers, way too hard to pin down.
Then it'll either be that the paladin is a huge threat (since the paladin can get within attack range and the Balor remains unbuffed) or the paladin is a minimal threat. But if it's the latter, what will that say about the rest of the party? If the DM has to boost monsters or play them as powerful creatures just to accomidate for one class then it's harder to consider it balanced.
If the OP is still looking for more catagories, I'd surgest a "Mostly balanced, but with one or two overpowering abilities" catagory.
You know. If I were a BBEG, it occurs to me that I might be wise to spend a good part of my wealth and energy in researching and creating some sort of magic item I could wear that might prevent paladins of equal or lower level than I from smiting me.
Such an item wouldn't be a horrible thing in that only the rarest and most powerful of opponents would be likely to have one. Doesn't completely solve "the problem" but it wouldn't be unreasonable for a DM to insert one of these in an adventure path somewhere.
You know. If I were a BBEG, it occurs to me that I might be wise to spend a good part of my wealth and energy in researching and creating some sort of magic item I could wear that might prevent paladins of equal or lower level than I from smiting me.
Nothing by RAW exists that does such a thing. Either don't get smited or suck it up and take it. And in all honesty, if a DM has to bring in a house-ruled item to balance things out, can you really call the class balanced?
Hell, I've seen people complain about problems that could be fixed with magic items, such as evil PC's wanting to work with paladins (since a Ring of Mind Sheilding blocks detect evil). Even though a item existed the "I want my paladin to work with evil" was still problematic (and still is) for quite a few groups.
To me it sounds like you haven't really dealt with the issue other than hypothetically. If a lone paladin is a huge threat to a Balor then you aren't running the balor right. Way too many high level at will powers, way too hard to pin down.POWERFUL-bordering broken
As a DM I like to structure my adventures in layers which culminate in an epic battle against the Big Bad Guy. Now the paladin walks in and says high there Mr Balrog meet mr Smite evil.
All of a sudden the paladin is a major threat to the BBG and I have to make sure that he has some minons to toss in the way of the paladin or some way to keep him at arms length or the fight is over to quickly.
Now the day of the BBG fight and the Paladin calls in sick...... He was going to be the big gun for the party and without him the party has little chance to defeat the battle I set up. If any other player had called in they could tough it out or I can make a little tweak.
That is the problem with the Paladin.
This is not about an encounter with a balor. This is about making a challenge to the group with a paladin that suddenly finds itself without one.
In the game I am currently running if they come across the BBG fight without the Paladin they are majorly boned. Much more than if the bard, sorcerer, druid or fighter had called in sick.
To me it sounds like you haven't really dealt with the issue other than hypothetically. If a lone paladin is a huge threat to a Balor then you aren't running the balor right. Way too many high level at will powers, way too hard to pin down.POWERFUL-bordering broken
As a DM I like to structure my adventures in layers which culminate in an epic battle against the Big Bad Guy. Now the paladin walks in and says high there Mr Balrog meet mr Smite evil.
All of a sudden the paladin is a major threat to the BBG and I have to make sure that he has some minons to toss in the way of the paladin or some way to keep him at arms length or the fight is over to quickly.
Now the day of the BBG fight and the Paladin calls in sick...... He was going to be the big gun for the party and without him the party has little chance to defeat the battle I set up. If any other player had called in they could tough it out or I can make a little tweak.
That is the problem with the Paladin.
This is not about an encounter with a balor. This is about making a challenge to the group with a paladin that suddenly finds itself without one.
In the game I am currently running if they come across the BBG fight without the Paladin they are majorly boned. Much more than if the bard, sorcerer, druid or fighter had called in sick.
The sorcerer is a notch below the the 5(wizard, druid, cleric, artificer, archivist) in power. What enemy is this? The druid, assuming it is a standard druid, has the option of meleeing you to death, or using spells.
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I would say balanced.
I think the novelty of considering the paladin as an efficient choice for minmaxers (whereas it was only good for role-playing purpose in 3.5) is what makes many people think it is now powerful or even broken.
Of course, the assessment also highly depends on whether you consider the alignment and behavior's restrictions severe or not.
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Now the day of the BBG fight and the Paladin calls in sick...... He was going to be the big gun for the party and without him the party has little chance to defeat the battle I set up. If any other player had called in they could tough it out or I can make a little tweak.
To me it sounds like you haven't really dealt with the issue other than hypothetically. If a lone paladin is a huge threat to a Balor then you aren't running the balor right. Way too many high level at will powers, way too hard to pin down.
This is not about an encounter with a balor. This is about making a challenge to the group with a paladin that suddenly finds itself without one.
This is surely an out-of-game problem, more than an in-game one.
It sounds like you have players who jealously guard their character sheets, take them home after the session, and won't let anyone else cover for them.And that is selfish play, if it ruins the enjoyment of the rest of the group.
As others have said, that's going to be a problem, no matter what the makeup of the party. Going from 5 PCs to 4, or from 4 to 3, is going to skew any encounter.
Plenty of classes have powers far more essential to the party's success than a bonus to hit, damage and AC.
What if the cleric's player can't make it? Nobody gets healed or raised.
What if the wizard's player can't make it? Sorry, there's no-one to teleport you to the BBEG lair. His evil plan succeeds, everybody dies, end of campaign.
Or do you say 'No game for you tonight, we'll all play Risk'?
What about cohorts, henchmen, animal companions? Do they all stay home too?
Do the whole entourage all send a ret-conned sick note, or just blink out of existence?
Many groups insist on the DM having a clear, up-to-date copy of all the character sheets, and any PC whose player can't make it gets run as an NPC by the DM, or subbed to another player. They should know how each other's abilities work, and have a typical short-list of actions.
And how difficult is it to play a paladin from memory?
If you know his level, hp, Str, Cha, and the plus of his weapon, you've got 90% of his actions covered. You could write it on the back of a bus ticket. If he has to make a save, for something he's not already immune to, just roll; don't even bother working it out unless you rolled low single-digits.
The paladin class is so straightforward, that I'd say it's easier to run one with no sheet, than to run a full spell-caster whose papers are in front of you.
If there's anything you really don't want others to see, it should be left off your sheet entirely, to be settled with a nod and a wink between you and the DM.
But in a party with a paladin, most PCs are going to be straight-up honest types who don't want to cheat each other, so if anything, it should be less of a problem than normal.
The new smite is insane, I will not allow it as it in my campaigns (and my players agree).
The compulsion immunity is also a little too powerful, since there is a lot of compulsion spells.
The new smite is insane, I will not allow it as it in my campaigns (and my players agree).
The compulsion immunity is also a little too powerful, since there is a lot of compulsion spells.
I agree. The complusion immunity would be okay if the caster was Undead or an Evil Outsider only.
My fix,
Smite Evil: As the core rules but with the following changes.
This ability works for one attack per round [chosen by the attacker each round] and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your charisma modifier, or until the targeted creature is dead [whichever comes first]. It still affects only one target. It does not by-pass DR [although your weapons’ enhancement bonus may still do so]. No AC bonus is granted.
As others have said, that's going to be a problem, no matter what the makeup of the party. Going from 5 PCs to 4, or from 4 to 3, is going to skew any encounter.
Snorter agrees with me so I must be right, and if he ever disagrees...well uh that is impossible.
The new smite is insane, I will not allow it as it in my campaigns (and my players agree).
The compulsion immunity is also a little too powerful, since there is a lot of compulsion spells.
How about you read the smite evil is evil thread. The ability is not broken. The most annoying thing about the paladin is his mercies since every time I slap a status condition on someone he removes it.
The new smite is insane, I will not allow it as it in my campaigns (and my players agree).
The compulsion immunity is also a little too powerful, since there is a lot of compulsion spells.
I agree. The complusion immunity would be okay if the caster was Undead or an Evil Outsider only.
My fix,
Smite Evil: As the core rules but with the following changes.
This ability works for one attack per round [chosen by the attacker each round] and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your charisma modifier, or until the targeted creature is dead [whichever comes first]. It still affects only one target. It does not by-pass DR [although your weapons’ enhancement bonus may still do so]. No AC bonus is granted.
All he had to do is get someone to cast mind blank, or take ranks in use magic device to cast the spell himself. Since his charisma will probably be pretty high I doubt that would be a problem.
Powerful verging on Broken. Not quite to the point where it will completely wreck balance in a party, but Smite in particular can be way, way too effective in certain fairly common situations, making it a real chore to plan effective and interesting encounters as a DM.
Well, after doing a whooooole lot of math, and some data-scraping from the SRD section on monsters, I have to revise my opinion on Smite. It's powerful, without a doubt, but when I ran the numbers against a regular fighter, I was very surprised indeed to see just how close they came at every level. I built as close to an ideal damage output fighter and ideal damage output paladin as I could, with full feat progressions, equipment, everything that might affect their damage, and at almost every level the average damage output per round for a full attack or vital strike was within two to four percent.
Against an ideal opponent, the Paladin is doing 30-35%% more damage per round, but, based on the proportions of foes in the MM, all that extra smite damage ends up averaging out. (If you're curious, one third of enemies in the MM are Evil, and roughly 1/6th are Undead, Outsiders with the evil subtype, or Evil Dragons.)
I made a quick table showing the damage output for a two weapon Fighter and a two weapon Paladin (both of which MASSIVELY outdamaged the equivalent characters using two-handed weapons). Just for fun, I threw the max DPS line on for a Paladin facing a foe for which they receive double damage on their smite (but please keep in mind the average, that max damage line might look impressive, but it's balanced out by the other 5/6ths of the time, when the Paladin isn't facing their ideal opponent).
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9458/paladinvsfighter.png)
(If anyone wants the full rundown on the numbers, I'll be happy to provide them. It's just a pain to try and format a table on here.)
How about you read the smite evil is evil thread. The ability is not broken. The most annoying thing about the paladin is his mercies since every time I slap a status condition on someone he removes it.
Well, I don't know how I can make an BBEG with a paladin in the group, without giving him a lot more HP....
With only the smite from beta, I have seen Xanesha drop in a two rounds, so with this new smite, it will be even worse.But I have a big problem with the power creep of the classes in PRPG.
Well, I don't know how I can make an BBEG with a paladin in the group, without giving him a lot more HP....
Here's a hint: evil isn't the only alignment in the book.
Here's a hint: evil isn't the only alignment in the book.
Big new.
But what's the point of having a paladin with smite evil in a group, if there is no evil opponent ?So, again, how I can make An BBEVILG with a paladin in the group, and nothing to protect him from the smite evil ability ?
Here's a hint: evil isn't the only alignment in the book.Big new.
But what's the point of having a paladin with smite evil in a group, if there is no evil opponent ?
So, again, how I can make An BBEVILG with a paladin in the group, and nothing to protect him from the smite evil ability ?
Actually, if you glance up at the analysis I did (all based on real numbers, real monsters from the MM, etc.) even against Undead, evil Dragons, and Outsiders with the Evil subtype, Smite Evil is only about a 30-40% boost in overall damage. I thought it would be far, far more than that as well, just based on gut instinct, but when you factor in everything else it's really not all that overpowering.
Actually, if you glance up at the analysis I did (all based on real numbers, real monsters from the MM, etc.) even against Undead, evil Dragons, and Outsiders with the Evil subtype, Smite Evil is only about a 30-40% boost in overall damage. I thought it would be far, far more than that as well, just based on gut instinct, but when you factor in everything else it's really not all that overpowering.
Yes, you're right, for statistics in the MM. But what about statistics in an adventure ? What about an adventure fighting drows ? Or demons ? It will be a lot different.
I'm still running Savage Tide, and even if there is no paladin, there is some holy weapons. There is always 2d6 more damage on 90% of opponents. It's really significant. I don't want to see a paladin with the new smite (with maybe extra smiting) in this campaign, as I will need to change a lot of enemy statistics.But still, that's not my problem. How can I make a big climax end campaign fighting, without the paladin killing my BBEG too quickly ? How can this ability can be useful without actually disrupting the climax battle ?
Smite Evil is actually less powerful than 3.5 Power Attack. I find it amusing that people cry "oh how can my NPCs handle one character hitting for +20 to +40 damage per hit?" when they had to deal with every single melee character hitting for +20 to +80 damage per hit in 3.5.
Smite Evil is actually less powerful than 3.5 Power Attack. I find it amusing that people cry "oh how can my NPCs handle one character hitting for +20 to +40 damage per hit?" when they had to deal with every single melee character hitting for +20 to +80 damage per hit in 3.5.
Smite Evil doesn't give you a penalty to hit, (it gives you even a bonus).
If a fighter wants to make a +20 or +40 damage on attacks, he will hit considerably less often than a paladin using smite evil (unless the BBEG has a very low AC).And nothing stop the paladin from using power attack on top of smite evil.
Also, I think that Power Attack is still too powerful, in 3.5 or PRPG, but that's another point.