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Help! A player has become OVERPOWERED!!!


D&D 3.5/d20/OGL

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Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Lathiira wrote:

Another question: why does this nonviolent person have Power Attack? Is he building up to some feat using this as a prerequisite?

Perhaps I missed it, but how did this guy end up 3 levels ahead of the rest of the party?

Umm, I think the first post was saying that in terms of Armour class he may as well be three levels ahead of the rest of the party.

No, he gained 3 Levels while we were in "comas"

Osirion

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

I'm curious, if you have the book in front of you, why you continue to maintain, given the severe restrictions the vows can cause and the frequent roleplaying situations arising (especially in a group also containing non-vowing characters) that the vows are 'broken', and to not withdraw your earlier support of the accusation that the player had in some way had to cheat* to get Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace? (Or at least in the latter case one of your earlier posts could be read that way, from the previous posters you cited.)

As other posters have outlined, a GM can work with the restrictions the Vows impose to create interesting/difficult situations that more than make up for a character having a high Armour Class.

Edit:
*Correction. 'Misinterpret the rules'.

I really don't feel the way you have laid out. If that was how my post was taken, I apologise.

I have seen many times where people aren't careful and either misinterpret the rules or don't take the time to do a little research. (Like the candle example above.) Another example was all the talk (long ago) about the power attack/jump attack combination. The problem (as I saw it) was that people were doubling the damage after all the adjustments were made rather than before -- yet the rules didn't say to do this at all. If you double your damage and then add in the other adjustments, it becomes a powerful feat but not game breaking.

And like was said above -- how do you get a vow of poverty and then get an additional feat to offset that? That's like saying "I take double damage from fire, but I'm immune to fire."

For the record, I've found very few combinations in 3.5 that I couldn't work around. (But I haven't played with the Bo9S yet. I've heard a number of people complain about that one.)


Lathiira wrote:

If he tries to wear magic items of armor, there goes Vow of Poverty for him. Just because the PrC lets him wear those it does not follow that it exempts him from the limits of Vow of Poverty. After all, monks can wear rings of protection and bracers of armor, because they aren't armor but wondrous items that increase AC.

(edited)

I'm not sure if Vow of Poverty excludes occasionally being loaned gear by other party members.
At what point it changes from 'loan' to 'nominal ownership' would be subjective to the GM I would think.

Further Edit:
Okay, no loans of permanent items don't work.


Matt Devney wrote:
Jabsco wrote:
Jabsco Character is the orc post

The only reason i show concern is I was ask if I would play something other then a caster, and If splat is banned, both the monk and I will fall behind the Druid Making our gaming Experience null and Void. No one wants to play back up characters to a druid that by level 10 can effective ley be the party's; Tank, Healer, Caster, and Glass Cannon ( or DPS if your MMO people)


Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Lathiira wrote:

If he tries to wear magic items of armor, there goes Vow of Poverty for him. Just because the PrC lets him wear those it does not follow that it exempts him from the limits of Vow of Poverty. After all, monks can wear rings of protection and bracers of armor, because they aren't armor but wondrous items that increase AC.

Vow of poverty does not exclude occasionally being loaned gear by other party members.

At what point it changes from 'loan' to 'nominal ownership' would be subjective to the GM I would think.

VoP explicitly states you cant be give gear to use, ever. The only way he can use Magic Items is if they are X of Armor and that is a Class Feature of The Apostle Of Peace, that directly Mods the VoP

Sorry for the double post, I am trying to answer everyones questions

Also he has not yet played as the level 5, I think once the DM sees the only increase to his power is his AC going up things may calm down. He did overcome an encounter rating 10 as a LvL 2 that would be the DM's fault for tossing that at him.


Jabsco wrote:
He is going into Fist of the forest PrC, Power attack is a pre req for it.

I can't see how a Guardian of the Green leader would allow an apostle of peace into this group. FotF are hunters and killers (as per the fluff).

Willing to be persuaded on that though... I assume your DM is already on board with that idea?


Matt Devney wrote:
Jabsco wrote:
He is going into Fist of the forest PrC, Power attack is a pre req for it.

I can't see how a Guardian of the Green leader would allow an apostle of peace into this group. FotF are hunters and killers (as per the fluff).

Willing to be persuaded on that though... I assume your DM is already on board with that idea?

Yes, the story of why a AoP would be a FotF is Every Hunter and killer needs a healer. The Character is More of a Druidic Figure Head By that Point in the Game, Like a Leader Of A FoTF clan, Level 20 is not taken Lightly in our games, because we die around level 6 most o the time, that is why all of our Player side from the new guy have learned to make there characters as survivable as possible.


Jabsco wrote:
The only reason i show concern is I was ask if I would play something other then a caster, and If splat is banned, both the monk and I will fall behind the Druid Making our gaming Experience null and Void. No one wants to play back up characters to a druid that by level 10 can effective ley be the party's; Tank, Healer, Caster, and Glass Cannon ( or DPS if your MMO people)

I appreciate that sentiment fully. I'm not sure you'd have a 'null and void' gaming experience though. But that is how you want to play, and I'm not going to argue with that! All I'm interested in is that the DM knows, appreciates and likes that way of playing too. His original post didn't indicate that.

Maybe when he sees the thread all will then be right with the world and regular gaming service shall be resumed!

I'd still tell him to watch out for that druid at level 12 though :-)


Jabsco wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Lathiira wrote:

If he tries to wear magic items of armor, there goes Vow of Poverty for him. Just because the PrC lets him wear those it does not follow that it exempts him from the limits of Vow of Poverty. After all, monks can wear rings of protection and bracers of armor, because they aren't armor but wondrous items that increase AC.

Vow of poverty does not exclude occasionally being loaned gear by other party members.

At what point it changes from 'loan' to 'nominal ownership' would be subjective to the GM I would think.

VoP explicitly states you cant be give gear to use, ever. The only way he can use Magic Items is if they are X of Armor and that is a Class Feature of The Apostle Of Peace, that directly Mods the VoP

Sorry for the double post, I am trying to answer everyones questions

Also he has not yet played as the level 5, I think once the DM sees the only increase to his power is his AC going up things may calm down. He did overcome an encounter rating 10 as a LvL 2 that would be the DM's fault for tossing that at him.

I'd be interested if there's any official errata on Vow of Poverty or Apostle of Peace on the WotC website regarding this. I know there were errors or omissions in the dead tree version of the Book of Exalted Deeds, as the Emissary of Barachiel prestige class listed a spell heroic valor which was not listed in the spells section, despite being asterisked to indictae that it supposedly was.


Jabsco wrote:
Yes, the story of why a AoP would be a FotF is Every Hunter and killer needs a healer. The Character is More of a Druidic Figure Head By that Point in the Game, Like a Leader Of A FoTF clan, Level 20 is not taken Lightly in our games, because we die around level 6 most o the time, that is why all of our Player side from the new guy have learned to make there characters as survivable as possible.

Cool concept! What character is the new guy playing?


Matt Devney wrote:
Jabsco wrote:
The only reason i show concern is I was ask if I would play something other then a caster, and If splat is banned, both the monk and I will fall behind the Druid Making our gaming Experience null and Void. No one wants to play back up characters to a druid that by level 10 can effective ley be the party's; Tank, Healer, Caster, and Glass Cannon ( or DPS if your MMO people)

I appreciate that sentiment fully. I'm not sure you'd have a 'null and void' gaming experience though. But that is how you want to play, and I'm not going to argue with that! All I'm interested in is that the DM knows, appreciates and likes that way of playing too. His original post didn't indicate that.

Maybe when he sees the thread all will then be right with the world and regular gaming service shall be resumed!

I'd still tell him to watch out for that druid at level 12 though :-)

Druid with some of the prestige classes in Book of Exalted Deeds... now that is, umm, 'interesting to GM', never mind unhittable monks.

Osirion

Jabsco wrote:
VoP explicitly states you cant be give gear to use, ever. The only way he can use Magic Items is if they are X of Armor and that is a Class Feature of The Apostle Of Peace, that directly Mods the VoP

Yeah, but even that's not entirely clear. Vow of poverty states fairly clearly -- "You may not use any magic item of any sort..." While the prestige class under Weapon and Armor Proficiency -- "As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them."

I can't get into WotC right now. Was there an errata/amendment to the BoED?

Also, how did he defeat the bugbears with a vow of peace active? (I need to read calm emotions again...)


Moff Rimmer wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:

I'm curious, if you have the book in front of you, why you continue to maintain, given the severe restrictions the vows can cause and the frequent roleplaying situations arising (especially in a group also containing non-vowing characters) that the vows are 'broken', and to not withdraw your earlier support of the accusation that the player had in some way had to cheat* to get Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace? (Or at least in the latter case one of your earlier posts could be read that way, from the previous posters you cited.)

As other posters have outlined, a GM can work with the restrictions the Vows impose to create interesting/difficult situations that more than make up for a character having a high Armour Class.

Edit:
*Correction. 'Misinterpret the rules'.

I really don't feel the way you have laid out. If that was how my post was taken, I apologise.

I have seen many times where people aren't careful and either misinterpret the rules or don't take the time to do a little research. (Like the candle example above.) Another example was all the talk (long ago) about the power attack/jump attack combination. The problem (as I saw it) was that people were doubling the damage after all the adjustments were made rather than before -- yet the rules didn't say to do this at all. If you double your damage and then add in the other adjustments, it becomes a powerful feat but not game breaking.

And like was said above -- how do you get a vow of poverty and then get an additional feat to offset that? That's like saying "I take double damage from fire, but I'm immune to fire."

For the record, I've found very few combinations in 3.5 that I couldn't work around. (But I haven't played with the Bo9S yet. I've heard a number of people complain about that one.)

Ah, thank-you for clarifying. There seems to be a lot around this thread which is easy to take wrong or misunderstand at the moment. I think I may bow out now.

Osirion

Sits back in his chair, even more secure in his decision to be a total tyrant with splat books now


Charles Evans 25 wrote:


I'd be interested if there's any official errata on Vow of Poverty or Apostle of Peace on the WotC website regarding this. I know there were errors or omissions in the dead tree version of the Book of Exalted Deeds, as the Emissary of Barachiel prestige class listed a spell heroic valor which was not listed in the spells section, despite being asterisked to indictae that it supposedly was.

We can certainly look it up, I'd forgotten about the errors. Being honest, I don't think this is an error. It does seem odd that the Apostle of Peace goes out of its way to say it can use things like rings of protection, but the Vow of Poverty spells out what you can use pretty well IMO.

May I also ask about the encounter rating 10 and what happened?

Edit: Having now wandered through a bit of the WotC boards, even they think that Vow of Poverty was an error in the prereqs of the Apostle of Peace and note that the Book of Exalted Deeds has issues. Still need an official Sage Advice ruling, as even the great minds on their boards couldn't agree on an answer.

Osirion

Moff Rimmer wrote:
(I need to read calm emotions again...)

For the record -- I hate mind-affecting spells.

Talk about an ambiguous spell. So the affected creature cannot take "violent" actions but can do "destructive" actions. It also doesn't say what the affected creatures will do. Can I calmly and methodically beat the living snot out of you? I would hate being around this character if he was in my group. I couldn't stand over him and protect him without making a saving throw. I couldn't start a bar fight. So affected creatures are not controlled, but they are not angry, or happy, or sad or anything. They don't want to fight you, but they want to take your money.

WotC had a series of articles long ago on many (most?) of the mind-affecting spells and how they work/don't work in game. I'd need to check that out.


Moff Rimmer wrote:
If you are in the party in question, why are you trying to break the game rather than try and come up with a good character and have fun with it? You seem so bent on trying to find every possible problem with the system rather than enjoy a well thought out power or character.

This is coming dangerously close to the Stormwind Fallacy, in that it seems to imply that power and character are on a sliding scale, where more of one means less of the other, when they are completely unrelated. You can have a spectacular character with depth and personality who is still mechanically capable of dealing enough raw HP damage to down Zeus with a single fourth-level spell. You can also have a cardboard caricature that's about as mechanically apt as a tissue paper canoe.

When you're building a character, you're supposed to ask what your character is supposed to be doing, and then figure out how to get your character to do it well. If you have a character who is defined as a skilled warrior, yet mechanically isn't very good at combat, the mechanical failings have now become a roleplaying fault. That isn't powergaming or trying to break the game, it's trying to play the game, and so long as you're not pulling something crazy (like anyone who can kill Zeus with a single 4th-level spell), seeking to make a powerful character is desirable.

Matt Devney wrote:

You need to tell the DM that this is intended, desirable and not pitiful. The other players also need to tell the DM this. Because at the moment your DM thinks its an issue. Maybe your DM isn't having fun? The splatbooks might be causing that.

Drake_Ranger: don't ban splatbooks because you think they're unbalanced.

Ban them if you think they're a pain in the bum to include or adjudicate.

Blaming the splats isn't going to resolve the underlying issues with the game, and brings back the problem that the PHB is the most unbalanced and unfair splat in all of 3.5/Pathfinder. If you want to actually treat the problem, rather than banning splats, Drake would be better off making, K.I.S.S. a rule. That's, "Keep It Simple, Stupid." If the problem is difficulty in implementation, just have everyone keep their builds simple and easy to adjudicate, and the problem goes away, even if you keep those splats that actually let non-casters keep up.

Jabsco wrote:
Yes, the story of why a AoP would be a FotF is Every Hunter and killer needs a healer.

Except that doesn't work. Supporting folks you know are off killing for the express purpose of enabling their killing is a violation of the terms of the Vow of Peace.

Moff Rimmer wrote:
Also, how did he defeat the bugbears with a vow of peace active? (I need to read calm emotions again...)

That's actually the easy part, as you're perfectly free to deal nonlethal damage with Vow of Peace, and fists are nonlethal weapons. Further, Vow of Peace's protection against normal weapons (the whole weapon-must-save-or-shatter-harmlessly thing) combined with the Calm Emotions effect (not to mention high AC) makes the bugbears very nearly nonthreats that play very explicitly to all of the Monk's strengths. This, too, could very well be a large part of the DM's frustrations, as he through what was supposed to be an overwhelming encounter at the Monk, yet it was specifically tooled to everything the Monk does best, rendering it a cakewalk more due to the highly advantageous circumstances more than any exceptional raw power the Monk may have.

Of course, that's mostly conjecture, but methinks it to be highly plausible conjecture that fits well with the facts.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Sits back in his chair, even more secure in his decision to be a total tyrant with splat books now

The problem ain't the splats, I assure you. PHB can shatter the game as much as any other splat.

------------

Now, then, the failing here is not with the splats, or the builds, or the feats (though admittedly, Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace are wonky as all get out, whether you think them balanced or no). It's a major failing in one, and only one, respect. It is a failure in communication. On all ends.

D&D is traditionally a game about killing things and taking their stuff. If someone is taking feats that forbid killing things and having stuff, a DM really ought to take a long, hard look at what sort of powers the player is getting in return for such drastic restrictions. Regardless of whether or not you consider the vows balanced or not, they drastically alter the fabric and flow of the game. It is both the player's responsibility to inform his GM of how the character operates and the GM's responsibility to understand the rules and what the characters are capable of, and to talk with the players about their wants, needs, and intentions.

The entire group needs to sit down and talk. Communicate as equals, assess philosophies of gaming, get a solid grasp on both the mechanical and narrative abilities and goals every player has with their characters, discuss the role of a GM, the nature of power within the game, and do it all politely. From a bit of yak on the Brilliant Gameologists boards, this group clearly has some underlying issues that need to be talked out.

That, and if a DM ever lets a single player three levels higher than everyone else in a party, no matter the circumstances (well, with little regard to the circumstances), something has gone seriously wrong. That's when it's time to waive some XP rules to keep everyone on the same playing field. Core-only ain't gonna change the fact that having a level 5 character walking next to a bunch of level 2 characters is going to mess everything all up in short order.


Errata for the Book of Exalted Deeds was published; it appears entirely focused on the removal of polymorph abilities, granting Asura a limited Change Shape ability instead.


One online index of Dragon Magazine articles (*link*) seems to suggest that Dragon magazine #324 may have had some responses in the Sage Advice column to questions regarding Vow of Poverty, but unfortunately not having Dragon magazine #324 I have no means to see if this might have a bearing on discussions on this thread.

Osirion

Lathiira wrote:
Edit: Having now wandered through a bit of the WotC boards, even they think that Vow of Poverty was an error in the prereqs of the Apostle of Peace and note that the Book of Exalted Deeds has issues. Still need an official Sage Advice ruling, as even the great minds on their boards couldn't agree on an answer.

I was wondering. Having a feat that specifically gives bonuses to AC for the specific reason of not being able to wear/use magic only to offset that with another ability seems counter-intuitive. Some serious "double-dipping" there.

I would scratch that as a prerequisite and not allow characters to double-dip with that.


Viletta Vadim wrote:


Matt Devney wrote:

You need to tell the DM that this is intended, desirable and not pitiful. The other players also need to tell the DM this. Because at the moment your DM thinks its an issue. Maybe your DM isn't having fun? The splatbooks might be causing that.

Drake_Ranger: don't ban splatbooks because you think they're unbalanced.

Ban them if you think they're a pain in the bum to include or adjudicate.

Blaming the splats isn't going to resolve the underlying issues with the game, and brings back the problem that the PHB is the most unbalanced and unfair splat in all of 3.5/Pathfinder. If you want to actually treat the problem, rather than banning splats, Drake would be better off making, K.I.S.S. a rule. That's, "Keep It Simple, Stupid." If the problem is difficulty in implementation, just have everyone keep their builds simple and easy to adjudicate, and the problem goes away, even if you keep those splats that actually let non-casters keep up.

That sounds like keep splatbooks, but only use them in an obvious, simple way. That works too. It is easier to just ban them though... the PHB has been around ages, the DM should know it back to front (IMHO), and the DM can keep control of stupid candle antics by just saying "Nope. It doesn't work like that." and everyone looks around sheepishly before resuming normal adventuring.

You are also right about communication. I think I touched on it in my posts, but you've got it really succinctly.


Matt Devney wrote:
That sounds like keep splatbooks, but only use them in an obvious, simple way. That works too. It is easier to just ban them though... the PHB has been around ages, the DM should know it back to front (IMHO), and the DM can keep control of stupid candle antics by just saying "Nope. It doesn't work like that." and everyone looks around sheepishly before resuming normal adventuring.

Except the problem with core isn't just the Candles of Invocation, or opening a Gate to a lava pit in Hell, or paying for a permanent PAO into a great wyrm gold dragon. It's fundamental; in core, casters are tremendously powerful with vast, expansive, cosmic power, even at moderate levels (and that's without abuse), while melee gets squat and fails to compete with level-appropriate threats beyond level 6 or so, and falls way behind in very short order beyond that point.

The splats allow melee classes to actually contribute. It's easier to include all the splats and ask your players to keep things simple than it is to overhaul core to gain any semblance of balance in a group that knows how to utilize their classes abilities.


I'm glad this came down to a intelligent discussion instead of the BAN all splat books it started as, that was my biggest problem with how this post was going. thank you all for joining in on the discussion.

Taldor

Jabsco wrote:

Build Is as Follows

Dwarf
Monk 1/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Warblade 1

Flaw: Sacred Vow
Flaw: VoPvrty
Level 1: VoNV
Level 3: VoPce
Level 4(ftr 1): Power Attack
Level 5: I dont know

Hmmm...it's purely a DM call, but I'm not sure I would allow Power Attack to be used in concert with non-lethal damage. It might be technically legal, but it violates the spirit of the feat.

I'd double-check to make sure those "Wisx2, Conx2" bonuses stack, but these are often unnamed bonuses so they probably do.


Warforged Gardener wrote:
Jabsco wrote:

Build Is as Follows

Dwarf
Monk 1/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Warblade 1

Flaw: Sacred Vow
Flaw: VoPvrty
Level 1: VoNV
Level 3: VoPce
Level 4(ftr 1): Power Attack
Level 5: I dont know

Hmmm...it's purely a DM call, but I'm not sure I would allow Power Attack to be used in concert with non-lethal damage. It might be technically legal, but it violates the spirit of the feat.

I'd double-check to make sure those "Wisx2, Conx2" bonuses stack, but these are often unnamed bonuses so they probably do.

They are unnamed so they do stack, as for power attack, he is only taking it as a pre req, he will not be using it. But good looking out!! :)

Taldor

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

One online index of Dragon Magazine articles (*link*) seems to suggest that Dragon magazine #324 may have had some responses in the Sage Advice column to questions regarding Vow of Poverty, but unfortunately not having Dragon magazine #324 I have no means to see if this might have a bearing on discussions on this thread.

The first question was about Exalted Strike applying to Grapple, Bull Rush, etc, and it specifically says that it only applies to things that have an attack roll or a damage roll, ie the touch attacks to initiate but not the strength checks.

The second was about class items being disallowed. Basically, animal companions, special mounts, familiars...allowed. Holy symbols, special class weapons like the the Samurai's sword, material focuses, disallowed.

The last question was about the Saint prestige class, but its information was telling. It says that certain abilities cannot be made to do nonlethal damage and thus violate the vow of nonviolence. Specifically, anything that deals holy damage is considered lethal damage, the way a flaming sword can't deal nonlethal fire damage.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Regarding Vow of Poverty, The Sage (Andy Collins) wrote:


Q: Dear Sage
Can a character avoid breaking the Vow of Poverty feat’s restrictions by declaring his weapon to be an ancestral relic, signature weapon, legacy weapon, or other special kind of weapon?
--William

A: No.

The Vow of Poverty feat (Book of Exalted Deeds p.48) very clearly states that you may not own or use any material possessions, with exceptions listed in the feat’s description.

The Sage strongly suggests that if you’re trying to find ways around the various Vow feats in BoED, you may be missing the point of the feats. (The book doesn’t bear the mature audiences warning just for subject matter, but also for approach to character creation.) These feats are intended to open up interesting roleplaying opportunities without unduly punishing a character’s playability.

In the case of the Vow of Poverty, the intent is to allow what would otherwise be a severely underpowered character (one without possessions) to retain viability in the game. Finding ways to retain one’s possessions while still benefiting from the feat defeats the entire purpose of the feat!

So, by that, no armor.


Chris Mortika wrote:
Regarding Vow of Poverty, The Sage (Andy Collins) wrote:


Q: Dear Sage
Can a character avoid breaking the Vow of Poverty feat’s restrictions by declaring his weapon to be an ancestral relic, signature weapon, legacy weapon, or other special kind of weapon?
--William

A: No.

The Vow of Poverty feat (Book of Exalted Deeds p.48) very clearly states that you may not own or use any material possessions, with exceptions listed in the feat’s description.

The Sage strongly suggests that if you’re trying to find ways around the various Vow feats in BoED, you may be missing the point of the feats. (The book doesn’t bear the mature audiences warning just for subject matter, but also for approach to character creation.) These feats are intended to open up interesting roleplaying opportunities without unduly punishing a character’s playability.

In the case of the Vow of Poverty, the intent is to allow what would otherwise be a severely underpowered character (one without possessions) to retain viability in the game. Finding ways to retain one’s possessions while still benefiting from the feat defeats the entire purpose of the feat!

So, by that, no armor.

How ever, The Apostle of Peace PrC Requires your to Have Vow of Poverty as a pre req, and It augments that vow as a class feature.

Osirion

I don't own this book but it seems to be of yet another case of it sounded cool but we really didn't look up what the feat did before we linked it.

Seems the feat and the PRC do not work together. But I am going on just what has been said here


Jabsco wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Regarding Vow of Poverty, The Sage (Andy Collins) wrote:


Q: Dear Sage
Can a character avoid breaking the Vow of Poverty feat’s restrictions by declaring his weapon to be an ancestral relic, signature weapon, legacy weapon, or other special kind of weapon?
--William

A: No.

The Vow of Poverty feat (Book of Exalted Deeds p.48) very clearly states that you may not own or use any material possessions, with exceptions listed in the feat’s description.

The Sage strongly suggests that if you’re trying to find ways around the various Vow feats in BoED, you may be missing the point of the feats. (The book doesn’t bear the mature audiences warning just for subject matter, but also for approach to character creation.) These feats are intended to open up interesting roleplaying opportunities without unduly punishing a character’s playability.

In the case of the Vow of Poverty, the intent is to allow what would otherwise be a severely underpowered character (one without possessions) to retain viability in the game. Finding ways to retain one’s possessions while still benefiting from the feat defeats the entire purpose of the feat!

So, by that, no armor.
How ever, The Apostle of Peace PrC Requires your to Have Vow of Poverty as a pre req, and It augments that vow as a class feature.

Given that the Apostle of Peace depicted on Page 52 of the Book of Exalted Deeds appears to possess/be using a scroll, some sort of (possibly magical) staff, and a magical candle of some description, on top of the ornate robes, I am inclining towards a belief that the Vow of Poverty was erroneously printed as a prerequisite for the class - possibly in error of Vow of Purity, which like Vow of Poverty also comes later, in terms of alphabetical arrangement, than Vow of Peace.

Edit:
Clarification. The only specific mention in the class I can find of Vow of Poverty is under the prerequisites.


Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Jabsco wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Regarding Vow of Poverty, The Sage (Andy Collins) wrote:


Q: Dear Sage
Can a character avoid breaking the Vow of Poverty feat’s restrictions by declaring his weapon to be an ancestral relic, signature weapon, legacy weapon, or other special kind of weapon?
--William

A: No.

The Vow of Poverty feat (Book of Exalted Deeds p.48) very clearly states that you may not own or use any material possessions, with exceptions listed in the feat’s description.

The Sage strongly suggests that if you’re trying to find ways around the various Vow feats in BoED, you may be missing the point of the feats. (The book doesn’t bear the mature audiences warning just for subject matter, but also for approach to character creation.) These feats are intended to open up interesting roleplaying opportunities without unduly punishing a character’s playability.

In the case of the Vow of Poverty, the intent is to allow what would otherwise be a severely underpowered character (one without possessions) to retain viability in the game. Finding ways to retain one’s possessions while still benefiting from the feat defeats the entire purpose of the feat!

So, by that, no armor.
How ever, The Apostle of Peace PrC Requires your to Have Vow of Poverty as a pre req, and It augments that vow as a class feature.

Given that the Apostle of Peace depicted on Page 52 of the Book of Exalted Deeds appears to possess/be using a scroll, some sort of (possibly magical) staff, and a magical candle of some description, on top of the ornate robes, I am inclining towards a belief that the Vow of Poverty was erroneously printed as a prerequisite for the class - possibly in error of Vow of Purity, which like Vow of Poverty also comes later, in terms of alphabetical arrangement, than Vow of Peace.

Edit:
Clarification. The only specific mention in the class I can find of Vow of Poverty is under the prerequisites.

Exact Class Feature

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Apostles of peace gain no
proficiency with any weapon or armor.
As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the
use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect
them (such as a ring of protectionor bracers of armor). An apostle of
peace who wears any armor is unable to cast apostle of
peace spells or use any of his supernatural
class abilities while doing so and for 24
hours thereafter.


Which looks to me as if it applies a monk's armour restrictions to the Apostle of Peace spellcasting in the manner of a druid's oaths...

Edit:
It seems significant to me that it's listed under Weapons and Armour Proficiencies, rather than on table 5-2 and as a specific separate ability.
(Although given the table 2-3 / Bonus Exalted Feats conflicts for Vow of Poverty which I mentioned in an earlier post, that might be of less significance than if it were in a more thoroughly edited book.)

Taldor

Jabsco wrote:


How ever, The Apostle of Peace PrC Requires your to Have Vow of Poverty as a pre req, and It augments that vow as a class feature.

The Apostle of Peace isn't allowed to wear armor, but there is a troubling passage under their proficiencies that suggests they are allowed to use magic items to provide armor benefits without losing the effects of the PrC, however using such items would certainly de-activate the benefits of the Vow of Poverty, similar to losing Paladin abilities for committing an evil act.

I don't see any way that it particularly augments or assists the vow of poverty, and its benefits are limited to a spell progression, an anti-fiend power, and the pacifying touch, which is a standard action and could arguably have no effect against particular kinds of attackers. Someone who kills for the pure pleasure of it is likely immune(it says similar to Calm Emotions, not as Calm Emotions), since the ability only purges negative emotions.

Played as written, it's not terribly overpowered and is the least problematic of the class combination.

Taldor

Was the Vow of Poverty taken as a flaw? Or was that a typo?


Warforged Gardener wrote:
Jabsco wrote:


How ever, The Apostle of Peace PrC Requires your to Have Vow of Poverty as a pre req, and It augments that vow as a class feature.

The Apostle of Peace isn't allowed to wear armor, but there is a troubling passage under their proficiencies that suggests they are allowed to use magic items to provide armor benefits without losing the effects of the PrC, however using such items would certainly de-activate the benefits of the Vow of Poverty, similar to losing Paladin abilities for committing an evil act.

I don't see any way that it particularly augments or assists the vow of poverty, and its benefits are limited to a spell progression, an anti-fiend power, and the pacifying touch, which is a standard action and could arguably have no effect against particular kinds of attackers. Someone who kills for the pure pleasure of it is likely immune(it says similar to Calm Emotions, not as Calm Emotions), since the ability only purges negative emotions.

Played as written, it's not terribly overpowered and is the least problematic of the class combination.

Exactly, Just one last point the only reason the Apostle of Peace cant use armor is because he has a vow of poverty.


Jabsco wrote:
Warforged Gardener wrote:
Jabsco wrote:


How ever, The Apostle of Peace PrC Requires your to Have Vow of Poverty as a pre req, and It augments that vow as a class feature.

The Apostle of Peace isn't allowed to wear armor, but there is a troubling passage under their proficiencies that suggests they are allowed to use magic items to provide armor benefits without losing the effects of the PrC, however using such items would certainly de-activate the benefits of the Vow of Poverty, similar to losing Paladin abilities for committing an evil act.

I don't see any way that it particularly augments or assists the vow of poverty, and its benefits are limited to a spell progression, an anti-fiend power, and the pacifying touch, which is a standard action and could arguably have no effect against particular kinds of attackers. Someone who kills for the pure pleasure of it is likely immune(it says similar to Calm Emotions, not as Calm Emotions), since the ability only purges negative emotions.

Played as written, it's not terribly overpowered and is the least problematic of the class combination.

Exactly, Just one last point the only reason the Apostle of Peace cant use armor is because he has a vow of poverty.

t was a Flaw How ever the order you gain feats is

Flaws First then Level 1

So it would have been
Flaw 1: Sacred Vow
Flaw 2: VoNV
Level 1: VoP

In that order you qualify for them in the correct time


Nero24200 wrote:
...Though quick question. He went from 2nd level to 5th? He had Vow of Peace at 2nd level? That's physically impossible since it requires two other feats to take, and even humans only have 2 feats by 2nd level.

Flaws from the Unearthed Arcana were taken for more feats. Though flaws themselves...that's another topic I will start later.

Taldor

Jabsco wrote:


t was a Flaw How ever the order you gain feats is

Flaws First then Level 1

So it would have been
Flaw 1: Sacred Vow
Flaw 2: VoNV
Level 1: VoP

In that order you qualify for them in the correct time

Technically, the vows are all feats and shouldn't be taken as flaws or drawbacks. They're balanced within themselves. If this wasn't an intentional ruling on the DM's part because he decided it was more of a flaw than a benefit(!), he should probably remove the last 1 or 2 feats gained at the most recent level to offset having too many feats and not enough genuine flaws. Or just require that you take 2 actual flaws.

(I may be misreading this, you could be saying you got the feats BECAUSE you took two flaws at 1st level)

Back to the matter at hand. There are some AC bonuses that don't stack. The Vow of Peace has a special line about how it works with the Vow of Poverty that's easy to misread. +2 to the natural armor, deflection, and exalted armor bonuses granted by Vow of Poverty DOES NOT stack with the +2 bonuses listed at the beginning of Vow of Peace. It lists the second set of +2 bonuses because natural armor, deflection, and armor bonuses are all non-stackable. In other words, you would get no AC bonuses from Vow of Peace if you already had Vow of Poverty UNLESS they added that extra line "increasing" the Vow of Poverty bonuses by +2 each.

So, and I apologize if you read it correctly the first time, Vow of Poverty AC bonuses, +2 to each of them, and that's it. The paragraph that begins, "Second, you gain...." does not apply to Vow of Poverty characters.


Drake_Ranger wrote:


Flaws from the Unearthed Arcana were taken for more feats. Though flaws themselves...that's another topic I will start later.

It seems you give you players too much leeway. I made that mistake before. A feat should never be a flaw, and I would not allow flaws unless the campaign is going to be ridiculously difficult. It is actually a lot easier to tone the campaign down than it is to give the players enough power to survive(which may become enough power to dominate), because eventually they will be too hard to kill.

It seems like the campaign just started. I would suggest resetting the campaign or start coming up with strategies now so you will be able to challenge them later.

Taldor

To the DM:

The Vow of Peace abilities are perfectly manageable in any game. The calming aura is mind-affecting, and there are many, many creatures that are immune to mind-affecting. Those that aren't can become immune with the right spells or potions. Since Protection from Evil nullifies any attempt to control your mind, regardless of the source(and comes in Good, Chaos, and Lawful varieties for those truly evil enemies who would never take Prot:Evil), they would be equally immune to mind-affecting derivatives that compel behavior changes(I could be wrong on this, but Pathfinder RPG labels Calm Emotions as Enchantment(compulsion) and 3.5 is likely the same).

I'm not suggesting that you load up all enemies with potions or give them Improved Unarmed Strike so their weapons don't shatter, but many enemies will be able to resist the ability with a standard spell or potion.

Vow of Peace is powerful, but not game-breaking. Your basic bugbear is probably going to end up owned, but unless the player's Charisma is as high as his AC, those saves are not insurmountable for an enemy with class levels(and throwing in some vile feats for big villains wouldn't hurt, either).


I seem to have misunderstood yet another thing here. I had assumed that the character was a human monk (hence the Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and Vow of Peace all by level 2). Am I to correctly understand that the GM houseruled that 'Vows' could be taken as if they were flaws?
Edit:
If that is not the case, then what flaws were taken to allow extra feats?
Further Edit:
It might be helpful to further discussion if we could simply see the build for this monk, in its entirety, if anyone has the time to spare to type it up. (Or at least the ability scores, race, feat selection, flaw selection, and data on if this is a 3rd edition/3.5/PFRPG set of rules being used as a framework.)


Some of you are confused how a lv2 can jump to lv5. Here's the very simple breakdown of it all:

5 Bugbears
1 Monk
Lots of flaws (Unearthed Arcana)
Calm Aura (or whatever) -Creatures who fail a Will Save of 10 can only defend themselves. They are considered under the spell 'Calm Emotions'.
All but two of the Bugbears fail.
Those two attack and finally crit against the Monk's 28 AC.
Their weapons shatter against the Monk's skin.
Three of the Bugbears run for reinforcements (to come at a later date) and leave the encounter.
Two are punched-out.

End Encounter

xp Awarded for 10x CR2 Bugbears=10,800xp

My mistake to pit a Monk of such caliber to his element.

My last mistake.


Charles Evans 25 wrote:

were flaws?

Edit:
If that is not the case, then what flaws were taken to allow extra feats?

Yep, he allowed Vows as flaws.

Cheliax

Jabsco wrote:

Build Is as Follows

Dwarf
Monk 1/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Warblade 1

Flaw: Sacred Vow
Flaw: VoPvrty
Level 1: VoNV
Level 3: VoPce
Level 4(ftr 1): Power Attack
Level 5: I dont know

Then He Has Many Exalted feats From VoPvrty

He will be Going in to Deep warden and Fist of the Forest as well
And toping it off with Apostle of Peace

this will net Him
Wisx2 to AC
Conx2 to AC

and Apostle of Peace will allow him to ware magic Items of Armor.

He will be a healing Tank something Akin to a Super Buddah.

Lols... Super Buddah!

I do not have that book... Someone wanna type off the Flaws and Feats he has please?

Some general rules I have... which might help in the future.
1. I do not allow anything from books I do not have.
2. I do not allow anything from any non-core books without reading through it first.

Osirion

Jabsco wrote:

Build Is as Follows

Dwarf
Monk 1/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 1/Warblade 1

Flaw: Sacred Vow
Flaw: VoPvrty
Level 1: VoNV
Level 3: VoPce
Level 4(ftr 1): Power Attack
Level 5: I dont know

Then He Has Many Exalted feats From VoPvrty

He will be Going in to Deep warden and Fist of the Forest as well
And toping it off with Apostle of Peace

this will net Him
Wisx2 to AC
Conx2 to AC

and Apostle of Peace will allow him to ware magic Items of Armor.

He will be a healing Tank something Akin to a Super Buddah.

Ok, we're pulling things from all over the place and it's hard for me to know exactly where things are coming from.

First of all -- Flaws? As a DM, I'd be incredibly careful with these. Two bonus feats is rough and I seldom see the actual flaw be equal in value to the feat granted.

Where is Unarmed Swordsage? Warblade? Deep Warden? Fist of the Forest?

How is he incorporating all this into his background for his character? Or is this just to see if he can? I mean prestige classes are supposed to be for a character that has really gotten good and focused in one or two ideas/ideals. How is he justifying all these different focuses?

I've done some of the math on creating a character that is first level in a whole bunch of classes -- and really haven't found that it's worth it. I have a strong suspicion that in a few levels this character won't ever be hit, but also won't be able to hit anything in return.

With regard to the "Vow of Poverty". The whole point of the feat is largely for some fun role-playing experiences. You can truly own almost nothing. And it talks very specifically about the consequences if the character does own or even use any items. The Apostle of Peace talks about the armor proficiencies as though it is clarifying them -- not overriding them. That's why I really feel that it was an error -- either it was meant to be a different vow or wasn't supposed to be there in the first place. Vow of poverty grants bonuses because the character can't use magic items. Giving those bonuses in addition to the ability to use magic items seems to very much go against the designer's intentions for the feat.

I wouldn't allow the vow of poverty/apostle of peace combination. I'd have to look at the other prestige classes, but on the surface it looks like it's kind of an interesting and largely worthless combination. So he won't ever be able to be hit or possibly be damaged in battle. But will he really be able to help much in battle? He has a base of what?, plus 2 to hit? It sounds like a lot of his stats are in dex and wisdom, and he doesn't have weapon finesse. In addition, anyone he attacks negates the calm effect. I really don't like the vow of peace -- just because of the potential of breaking weapons. Not because of the weapons breaking, but because I don't like the save system with weapons -- a +1 magic weapon only has a 5% better chance to save than a normal weapon -- and since the DC improves with the character and items don't improve nearly as well it can quickly become a serious problem later on.

Anyway, the combinations are little annoying, but it should balance out in a few levels. As for the DM -- I would never give a player even an opportunity to gain two levels above the rest of the party. Even if he was hunting for trouble (odd for someone who took a vow of peace), but if he was, I'd give him a squirrel. He'd have to defeat a lot of squirrels to gain two levels.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Drake_Ranger wrote:

Some of you are confused how a lv2 can jump to lv5. Here's the very simple breakdown of it all:

xp Awarded for 10x CR2 Bugbears=10,800xp

My mistake to pit a Monk of such caliber to his element.

My last mistake.

Oh, we all make a metric ton of mistakes. Eventually, they get subtler, that's all.

Regarding the experience:

1) I admit that I'm enough of a curmudgeon that I still require PCs to devote a day of training in order to advance in levels, but even without quirky house rules, I don't think a character ought to get more experience in a single encounter than necessary to raise him a full level.

2) A bugbear is, as you note, a CR2 critter. Five of them are a CR6 threat (Two of them = CR4, four of them = CR6.) That's 2700 xp, enough to take a 2nd Level character to 3rd Level. Given that three of them escaped, rather than lie defeated, I'd probably reduce that to 1800.


Flaws are in the d20 SRD, or at least some appear to be*link*.
Edit:
My personal impression of flaws, not having really come across them before (I don't have the Unearthed Arcana book which has been mentioned) is that I have concerns that they are very low prices to pay for what they offer in exchange to some classes/characters, though as a GM if I allowed them in a game, the monsters would have automatic access to the mechanic too...

Osirion

I may be wrong but if I recall you could not gain enough xp to skip levels. Maybe that was from 3.0 or maybe 2e I just misremember but it's a good rule anyhow

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