Converting Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade...


Conversions


How would one go about converting these classes to Pathfinder? My ideas are limited so far, and would find some suggestions helpful (though it would also be appreciated if people would refrain from "Bo9S is broken" and "Bo9S needs xyz mechanics updated/changed/removed").

WARBLADE:
Functionally perfect for the new system imo. It gains frequent abilites, and when not gaining abilities it gets new maneuvers. It has a very nice 20th level ability, but doesn't gain the raw bonuses that the fighter gets. The only thing that might be worth changing is the hit die... Anything I'm missing?

CRUSADER:
This one is the hardest to convert imo. It is the weakest of the the three in terms of cool abilities, despite it having a nice recharge mechanic. I'd really like some suggestions here. What I've got so far is DUAL STRIKE for the 20th level ability (which brings it into parity with the other ToB classes, and is less powerful due to the random recharge and limited schools known), and HD INCREASE to a D12. Other possibilities I've been contemplating are to give it a domain granted ability, give the save bonuses for divine grace, and increase the smiting effect (though not to the degree of the paladin).

SWORDSAGE:
This one is almost there, but needs more oomph. It has many abilities, and many maneuver known, but still is not stunningly powerful when compared to the other options available. A well built rogue or monk will out-damage this character easily, and likely out-survive it as well.
Since it's based on a monk build, I've contemplated adding monk-like abilities to it, though which ones are still uncertain. Flurry in its new incarnation seems overpowered for the class, and the little stuff is mostly covered by maneuvers. Increasing the saves to be all good saves seems like a good idea though.

Sczarni

I don´t wanna be THAT guy, but the main reazon for BO9S to exist was to make melee characters more appealing compared to casters, which as far as i can see they are now. So there would be no point on rebooting the BO9S classes.

But if for some reazon you think they NEED to be used on a PF game then don´t have to change much, just change the concentration mechanic of some maneuvers to be initiator lvl based and be done with it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Drop the Warblade to a d10 and call it a day. That's my recommendation. Anything more would just be power creep.


*Sigh*

They provide a tactical mechanic and variety lacking in other fighter-types, thus their appeal. The Warblade, as stated, is mostly fine as is (I agree that the d10 could be dropped).

Crusader (especially) and Swordsage however are lower in utility than Warblade overall, and need additional help, if only a bit. I'm looking for what abilities could fill the slots on the Crusader's empty levels, and for a way to give the Swordsage a bit more oomph without overbalancing them (at 20th, the Monk and Rogue both out damage the S.Sage, and the new utility provided by their special powers puts them on the same level as the S.Sage in terms of utility).


rydi123 wrote:

*Sigh*

They provide a tactical mechanic and variety lacking in other fighter-types, thus their appeal. The Warblade, as stated, is mostly fine as is (I agree that the d10 could be dropped).

Crusader (especially) and Swordsage however are lower in utility than Warblade overall, and need additional help, if only a bit. I'm looking for what abilities could fill the slots on the Crusader's empty levels, and for a way to give the Swordsage a bit more oomph without overbalancing them (at 20th, the Monk and Rogue both out damage the S.Sage, and the new utility provided by their special powers puts them on the same level as the S.Sage in terms of utility).

The Crusader needs no help. It is a great class. Some even argue that it is better than the warblade. Thicket of Blades makes it the best class to use for a lockdown build, IMHO.


concerro wrote:


The Crusader needs no help. It is a great class. Some even argue that it is better than the warblade. Thicket of Blades makes it the best class to use for a lockdown build, IMHO.

Crusader isn't bad on power (though I certainly wouldn't place it on par with Warblade in overall power/utility), however it has very few cool abilities as it progresses. So I'm trying to figure out some neat stuff that won't overpower it. And it needs a 20th lvl capstone at the very least.

Swordsage is imo the really underpowered one, but it doesn't need little abilities so much as a boost of some sort to make it on par with the pathfinder Monk/Rogue.


Frerezar wrote:
So there would be no point on rebooting the BO9S classes.

Here's the only point that's needed: some people like the classes for what they are, not as they are in comparison to the fighter.

On topic:

For the crusader, you might look at the Knight's Challenges from the Knight class in PHB2 and devise something similar. Or copy outright, of course.

For the swordsage, one suggestion is actually already supplied by Bo9S: give them the monk's flurry of blows and unarmed damage progression.


Zurai wrote:
Frerezar wrote:
So there would be no point on rebooting the BO9S classes.

Here's the only point that's needed: some people like the classes for what they are, not as they are in comparison to the fighter.

On topic:

For the crusader, you might look at the Knight's Challenges from the Knight class in PHB2 and devise something similar. Or copy outright, of course.

For the swordsage, one suggestion is actually already supplied by Bo9S: give them the monk's flurry of blows and unarmed damage progression.

Knights Challenge, or a similar ability might not be a bad way to go. Might also play with the Smite class feature somehow (I don't want to copy paste the Paladin ability, that would be too powerful, but perhaps extending the duration of the smite, or giving extra use/day for some of the empty levels).

It did occur to me to give S.Sage flurry, but it worried me that it would over-power the class... I'll have to look at the math on it.

Thanks for the constructive input!

Scarab Sages

I've been using the Bo9S classes in my converted-forward PFRPG game with little issue. They tend to out-power core-only builds, but by a much more narrow margin than in 3.5. They match up pretty well with PF core class builds that use feats, spells, alternate class abilities, etc., from the "Complete" books and the Player's Handbook 2. The 3.5 Fighter was lagging behind a little, but the PF fighting classes feel balanced against the B09S stuff. I just houseruled Concentration back into the game and let go, though our group has discussed cutting Warblades back to a d10, and possibly stripping Uncanny Dodge, both changes for balance issues.

Edit/Add: So far, we've got one Swordsage PC, one Crusader PC, and one Warblade NPC. All three are amongst the most dangerous people in their level range, easily a match for spellcasters of roughly equal level. They're meeting the Fighters on equal footing, and outdoing the other melee classes unless built very carefully and power-gamey. The Swordsage in particular (an assassin-flavored character) has been using Shadow Hand stances and maneuvers to stunning utility effect outside of combat as well as being an effective, though glass-cannon-esque, combatant. The player has discovered that it is almost vital to take the Adaptive Style feat as a Swordsage unless you want to fire and forget your whole maneuver set in the first few rounds of a fight, but having taken that feat, she's been doing rather well, having used the Wisdom-AC Buff and defensive maneuvers to avoid having her low HP exploited by enemies.

Scarab Sages

concerro wrote:
rydi123 wrote:

*Sigh*

They provide a tactical mechanic and variety lacking in other fighter-types, thus their appeal. The Warblade, as stated, is mostly fine as is (I agree that the d10 could be dropped).

Crusader (especially) and Swordsage however are lower in utility than Warblade overall, and need additional help, if only a bit. I'm looking for what abilities could fill the slots on the Crusader's empty levels, and for a way to give the Swordsage a bit more oomph without overbalancing them (at 20th, the Monk and Rogue both out damage the S.Sage, and the new utility provided by their special powers puts them on the same level as the S.Sage in terms of utility).

The Crusader needs no help. It is a great class. Some even argue that it is better than the warblade. Thicket of Blades makes it the best class to use for a lockdown build, IMHO.

Crusaders seem night-unto-unkillable unless you really try to single them out and mess with them. Thicket of Blades has been the Crusader PC's personal favorite in my Bo9S-heavy game, as it allows her to lock down her one major tactical weakness (spells that require high Dex/Reflex to resist, and those who cast them).


Face_P0lluti0n wrote:


Edit/Add: So far, we've got one Swordsage PC, one Crusader PC, and one Warblade NPC. All three are amongst the most dangerous people in their level range, easily a match for spellcasters of roughly equal level. They're meeting the Fighters on equal footing, and outdoing the other melee classes unless built very carefully and power-gamey. The Swordsage in particular (an assassin-flavored character) has been using Shadow Hand stances and maneuvers to stunning utility effect outside of combat as well as being an effective, though glass-cannon-esque, combatant. The player has discovered that it is almost vital to take the Adaptive Style feat as a Swordsage unless you want to fire and forget your whole maneuver set in the first few rounds of a fight, but having taken that feat, she's been doing rather well, having used the Wisdom-AC Buff and defensive maneuvers to avoid having her low HP exploited by enemies.

This interests me. So the S.Sage isn't lagging behind anyone? Do you have a pf Monk or Rogue with a solid damage build in the party? And is the S.Sage utilizing any of the other schools, or just Shadow Hand? I'm trying to get a feel for how they compare and balance out, especially when not using Shadow Hand focused builds.

Thanks for the input.


I'm going to jump on the "leave it alone" bandwagon. Strongly. The Martial Initiator classes are very nicely balanced against the new PFRPG classes. It's now a difficult decision which direction to go. Of all of the non-core books Bo9S is very likely the one that needs the least alteration. Adjust skills where needed, adjust hit die where appropriate, and move on. Seriously.


For the SwordSage: Flurry of Blows: When using one of the favored weapons of whatever stance a SwordSage is in, he can take a full round action to release a torrent of blows upon his opponents. (This may require a manuever to be expended in order to utilize this ability) The SwordSage uses his level as his BAB for the purposes of this manuever and is treated as though wielding 2 light weapons with all of the appropriate 2 weapon fighting feats even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites

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