|
I have some initial observations about multiclassing in Pathfinder.
The big changes:
Favored Class Change: this is really not terribly significant as it was in 3.x. On the one hand, it allows freer multiclassing and prevents railroading races into particular classes, but the benefit of actually having a favored class is fairly minimal. Arguably, the favored class rule simply favors non-half-elf single-classed characters, who get to use the extra skill rank or hit point every level.
Capstone Abilities and No Dead Levels: these two game elements were obviously put in place to reward single-class characters for sticking with a class, and to address the multi-class bloat that occured in 3.x. The downside is that there is now a heavy price to pay when multiclassing -- the opportunity cost of never being able to get the higher level abilities. This is huge for all classes.
Class Skill Revision: Allowing class skills to apply to all future levels is a big change. This favors multiclassing; once you have Use Magic Device as a class skill, for instance, you can keep adding ranks to it even if your future levels are in classes without that class skill.
Comments:
In 3.x, there were essentially three kinds of multiclassers. The non-spellcaster who wanted a piece of every non-spellcasting class for optimization purposes, those who multiclassed to qualify for a specific prestige class, and those individuals who multiclassed purely for character concept.
After trying several different character builds, I am of the opinion that you had better have a very good reason to multiclass: either you are aiming for a prestige class or have a RP/concept reason to multiclass. Let me show you why.
An example of multiclassing that is worth it
Let's say I make a half-elf who wants to be a Cleric/Wizard Mystic Theurge. I'm putting most of my character points into Int, Wis, and maybe some Cha if I can spare it. If I take 3 levels each in Cleric and Wizard and 4 into Mystic Theurge, at 10th level I am a 7th level caster in each class. Let us assume that my DM lets me take the Practiced Spellcaster feat (from 3.5) two times and raise that to 10th caster level in each class.
What have I given up by multiclassing? The big ones are wizard bonus feats, lack of progression in arcane school abilities, divine channeling effectiveness, and lack of progression in domain powers. Also, I don't have access to 5th level spells.
To me, this is a fair exchange. I'm getting a huge amount of versatility but am only about 2/3 as powerful as a single class 10th level cleric or wizard. Probably the biggest downside to this build is the pitiful divine channeling effectiveness. Then again, Mystic Theurge has its own capstone abilities that will hopefully make the trip worthwhile.
An example of multiclassing that is not worth it
One of the more common builds in 3.x featured "splashing" of class levels to get cool class abilities (and some high saving throws) for non-spellcasters. Common splashes were Barbarian 1 (for rage and fast movement), Fighter 4 (for three feats and weapon specialization), Ranger 2 (for combat style), and Rogue 2 (for sneak attack and evasion).
So let's build a level 10 3.5 splasher in Pathfinder. We'll go Bbn2/Ftr4/Rgr2/Rog2.
On the plus side, we do get a lot of fun class powers and have a BAB of +9, a great Fort save and good Ref save.
What exactly are we giving up here? Well, the favored class rule is going to cost us at least 6 skill ranks or 6 hit points. And then there's the higher level class powers we will NEVER get, like:
* Greater Rage, Damage Reduction, Rage Powers ...
* Weapon and Armor Training/Mastery, more bonus feats ...
* Ranger spells, favored enemy progression, animal companion, favored terrain ...
* Rogue talents, more sneak attack ...
So while the splasher is fun in the early-mid levels, by the mid-late levels he flames out in comparison. The splasher will maintain a good BAB and saves but will fall behind due to the lack of progression in core class abilities -- unless of course the splasher's intention is to swap into a prestige class that has its own capstone abilities that justify all the multiclassing.
Honestly for any melee class except monk and manybe rogue a short splash in fighter is well worth the gain. Espically for a barbarian, ranger, Paladin or melee focused druid or cleric even.
Look at just one level gets you.
Skill with all simple and martial weapons
Skill with all armor and shields including tower shields
One bonus feat
And to me the real prize
Ignore the movement penalty of medium armor. That is huge. Barbarians will love it a level 1 fighter/level 1 barbarian spinting around in chainmail is a big deal. Also now that barbarian at high level can slap on mithril full plate and go to town, since mithril makes it medium armor for movement purposes, and with his one level of fighter he ignores that he is hauling around at 40 in full plate. Sweetness.
And here's how I see missing the cap stone...I don't care. If you are actually still playing at level 20...chances are good you are still playing at level 21 so that one early level only delayed the capstone. If you aren't playing at level 20...you lost nothing.
|
|
And here's how I see missing the cap stone...I don't care. If you are actually still playing at level 20...chances are good you are still playing at level 21 so that one early level only delayed the capstone. If you aren't playing at level 20...you lost nothing.
It's not just the capstone stuff, it's the mid-level stuff too. Greater Rage is at 11. Advanced Rogue Talents around there too. If you are a heavy splasher, you can easily miss those things even in the mid-levels.
I hear you about the one fighter level, though. I can see that making sense for many non-spellcasters.
And here's how I see missing the cap stone...I don't care. If you are actually still playing at level 20...chances are good you are still playing at level 21 so that one early level only delayed the capstone. If you aren't playing at level 20...you lost nothing.It's not just the capstone stuff, it's the mid-level stuff too. Greater Rage is at 11. Advanced Rogue Talents around there too. If you are a heavy splasher, you can easily miss those things even in the mid-levels.
I hear you about the one fighter level, though. I can see that making sense for many non-spellcasters.
You are very right. Pure splash builds do miss out on a ton, even serious dips into a class can delay important abilities too much to make it worthwhile.
Even for a "battle cleric" or "green knight (druid)" I can see the value of one fighter level. I think it outweighs the disadvantage of one level slower spell progression. Though I dislike that kind of dipping the value is clearly there.
I've been building a fighter/ranger, 5/5 so far. Works pretty well actually. More effective in general battles then a ranger would be, more effective against giants then a fighter would be.
It is also giving me a weirdly flexible melee fighter who switches from using a long sword two handed to twf (longsword/dagger) when more swings will mean more.
My next plan is to try a guy who pretty much alternates cleric and fighter levels, I think it should make a solid enough build.
Basically slashing I do agree in general isn't the way to go, I think focusing on the strength two class can bring to each other though can make for a strong build. But don't look at the character as part fighter part cleric, look at him always as a fighter/cleric when taking feats, picking spells, skill points, stats, everything. That is the way to make it work in my veiw.
|
Honestly for any melee class except monk and manybe rogue a short splash in fighter is well worth the gain. Espically for a barbarian, ranger, Paladin or melee focused druid or cleric even.
Look at just one level gets you.
Skill with all simple and martial weapons
Skill with all armor and shields including tower shields
One bonus feat
And to me the real prizeIgnore the movement penalty of medium armor. That is huge. Barbarians will love it a level 1 fighter/level 1 barbarian spinting around in chainmail is a big deal. Also now that barbarian at high level can slap on mithril full plate and go to town, since mithril makes it medium armor for movement purposes, and with his one level of fighter he ignores that he is hauling around at 40 in full plate. Sweetness.
And here's how I see missing the cap stone...I don't care. If you are actually still playing at level 20...chances are good you are still playing at level 21 so that one early level only delayed the capstone. If you aren't playing at level 20...you lost nothing.
You need 3 Fighter Levels to ignore the movement penalty of medium armor, 7 levels to ignore the heavy armor one.
You need 3 Fighter Levels to ignore the movement penalty of medium armor, 7 levels to ignore the heavy armor one.Honestly for any melee class except monk and manybe rogue a short splash in fighter is well worth the gain. Espically for a barbarian, ranger, Paladin or melee focused druid or cleric even.
Look at just one level gets you.
Skill with all simple and martial weapons
Skill with all armor and shields including tower shields
One bonus feat
And to me the real prizeIgnore the movement penalty of medium armor. That is huge. Barbarians will love it a level 1 fighter/level 1 barbarian spinting around in chainmail is a big deal. Also now that barbarian at high level can slap on mithril full plate and go to town, since mithril makes it medium armor for movement purposes, and with his one level of fighter he ignores that he is hauling around at 40 in full plate. Sweetness.
And here's how I see missing the cap stone...I don't care. If you are actually still playing at level 20...chances are good you are still playing at level 21 so that one early level only delayed the capstone. If you aren't playing at level 20...you lost nothing.
Hm...that does make going to level 5 tempting......I thought it was just one, but 3 is better.
One option to address the mechanics equality issue, but I don't recommend, is...
Class based XP/level
So, L1 in any class costs exactly the same, regardless of character level.
However, feats and stat boosts remain tied to character level.
Now, this can easily open up a huge can of worms at early levels.
Can be throttled with a feat per additional class to build this way.
Maybe even separate feats for L1-5, 5-10, 11-15,...
It is important for balance that only character level feats are used.
Name the special feat(s) whatever to your liking.
Again, I don't recommend doing so, the system isn't designed for this.
There are many many reasons it was never an option in the original D&D in the first place.
It can create some very nasty hidden side effects, regardless.
Expect players to look for "I win" exploits in it. Don't trust them!
I would strongly suggest building a few at different levels, before ever allowing it in your game.
Adding a Prestige Class level requirement would be very wise.
That said, it does open up playing some really cool character concepts.
It is YOUR version of the game that you're running in the end ;)
The painful truth of multi-classing is:
A low level ability =/= a mid/high level ability.
This is the reason PrCs are so popular compared to pure multiclassing. Multi-classing buys you 2 sets of low level abilities... you are basically 2 half characters. Prestige classes give you a lot of the benefits of multiclassing but they can give you character level appropriate abilities. This is of course the 'ideal' prestige class. Most of them fall short by giving too much or too little.
1st lev Diviner.
Always act in the surprise round and get +1 to Init. Cast True Strike. Use Wizard Wands. Arcane Bond.To any scout/pointman the "anti-surprise" is an uber ability that mechanically matches up with any ability out there. Toss in the support abilities for icing on the cake. Amusingly the surprise immunity is better for the Melee Scouts than it is for the Diviner IMHO.
I think acting in the surprise round is great for anyone. A wizard being able to get the jump on everyone is super shiny IMO, battlefield control spells work best before anyone gets a chance to maneuver toss up a wall of fire spell and suddenly your fighters are dealing with 2 sets of 3 trolls instead of 6... Regardless as far as 1st level abilities go this is a shiney one.