Pinned and Coup de Grace


Rules Questions


6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can a pinned character be coup de grace'd?

Pinned doesn't state "helpless" - but it does state that the target cannot move and is tightly bound.

And the "helpless" condition says that you are helpless if you are bound or held.


LoreKeeper wrote:

Can a pinned character be coup de grace'd?

Pinned doesn't state "helpless" - but it does state that the target cannot move and is tightly bound.

And the "helpless" condition says that you are helpless if you are bound or held.

Havent got the rulebook handy at the minute but Id say yes by a third party not involved in the grapple.

At the least it makes the grappled not so confident when not trying to escape :)


LoreKeeper wrote:

Can a pinned character be coup de grace'd?

Pinned doesn't state "helpless" - but it does state that the target cannot move and is tightly bound.

And the "helpless" condition says that you are helpless if you are bound or held.

I would say no. It looks like there are two levels of being bound in PFRPG: "pinned" (the equivalent of being bound with ropes) and "helpless" (the idea of being bound with manacles). The latter is coup-de-grace-able, and the former isn't.


hogarth wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

Can a pinned character be coup de grace'd?

Pinned doesn't state "helpless" - but it does state that the target cannot move and is tightly bound.

And the "helpless" condition says that you are helpless if you are bound or held.

I would say no. It looks like there are two levels of being bound in PFRPG: "pinned" (the equivalent of being bound with ropes) and "helpless" (the idea of being bound with manacles). The latter is coup-de-grace-able, and the former isn't.

From the rules:

Quote:

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise

restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up.
This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds
is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead
of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check
every round to maintain the pin.

In other words, a pin and being tied up are the same thing. Being tied up is like being pinned. And thus should be coup de graceable.


"Bound" (at least in the sense you're using it, as being simply tied up with rope as opposed to the completely bound, totally unable to move sense) isn't the important term in the description of the helpless condition. "Completely at the opponent's mercy" is. If you're tied up as a prisoner, you can still move (roll around on the ground if you're prone, hop or shuffle if you're on your feet). That means you can still dodge, which means you can't be coup'd. Coup is only for when there's literally nothing you can do to get out of the way.

You can still move to a degree when you're pinned, enough that you can still make Reflex saves and don't have an effective Dexterity of 0. That means you cannot be coup'd.


Zurai wrote:

"Bound" (at least in the sense you're using it, as being simply tied up with rope as opposed to the completely bound, totally unable to move sense) isn't the important term in the description of the helpless condition. "Completely at the opponent's mercy" is. If you're tied up as a prisoner, you can still move (roll around on the ground if you're prone, hop or shuffle if you're on your feet). That means you can still dodge, which means you can't be coup'd. Coup is only for when there's literally nothing you can do to get out of the way.

You can still move to a degree when you're pinned, enough that you can still make Reflex saves and don't have an effective Dexterity of 0. That means you cannot be coup'd.

Ah... I think I'm convinced.

Scarab Sages

I also had the impression that it went from grappled -> pinned -> tied up. In other words, three rounds worth of working on the grapple at least.

I'd rule that if you have someone all the way to tied up, and someone else restraining them further, then... yes, a coup-de-grace is allowed. I'd allow that not only because it seems in the spirit of RAW, but it also gives spell-casters a reason to be very cautious around the bruiser-types, and anything that lets fighters be a source of worry again is OK with me :-).


Your victim must be helpless:

Pathfinder Core Rules, Coup de Grace, page 197 wrote:
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent.

A pinned/grappled opponent is not helpless:

Pathfinder Core Rules, Helpless, page 567 wrote:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
Pathfinder Core Rules, Pinned, page 568 wrote:
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flatfooted. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Note that those two conditions are quite different. Most notably, the helpless character gets no DEX at all and the pinned character gets his normal DEX and only a minor penalty to AC.

Ergo, no, you cannot use a coup de grace on a pinned target. First you have to convert him to helpless.


LoreKeeper wrote:
Can a pinned character be coup de grace'd?

Yes, but you need the throat slicer feat


yes, as long as they are helpless


There's a new feat for this from Heroes of the Streets, Throat Slicer. Lets you coup de grace a pinned target as a standard. It's not PFS legal though =(

Scarab Sages

I didn't realize even being tied up is not helpless, it is just a pin with a higher number to beat. Even if it is "impossible" (your CMB more than 20 over opponent's CMB or escape artist) they still get DEX and Reflex saves (they can roll out of the way I guess).


The way I and all my groups have always seen it is that yes, you can coup de grace a pinned creature. I came here to see if the person doing the pining could perform the coup de grace.

coup de grace is a full round action, which means the pinning creature wouldn't be able to maintain the pin, but the other character is probably dead by the end of the turn, so that was my question.

However, i learned throat slice is a thing now. THe real benefit from throat slice that I'm seeing is it's standard action, so one can maintain and coup in one round. I am happy


DM_Blake wrote:

Your victim must be helpless:

Pathfinder Core Rules, Coup de Grace, page 197 wrote:
Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent.

A pinned/grappled opponent is not helpless:

Pathfinder Core Rules, Helpless, page 567 wrote:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
Pathfinder Core Rules, Pinned, page 568 wrote:
Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is flatfooted. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Note that those two conditions are quite different. Most notably, the helpless character gets no DEX at all and the pinned character gets his normal DEX and only a minor penalty to AC.

Ergo, no, you cannot use a coup de grace on a pinned target. First you have to convert him to helpless.

Sorry, I'm still a bit confused near the emphasized points above.


Mechanics aside,

If you have a character Bound up, and would like to dispatch him...

Then what is preventing you?

A full round action do coup de grace produces a save or die effect.

While, a full attack action produces the same effect as well(just differently).

I mean, I could see instances where you dont have 4 rounds to stab someone to death with your Diminutive bone dagger, but how often are you in a rush to coup de grace a bound adversary?


I'm sure DM_Blake will be happy to defend that six-and-a-half-year-old post.

I think most GMs think that if you were helpless the rules wouldn't say "A pinned creature cannot move and is flatfooted." It would say "A pinned creature is helpless." The word 'bound' isn't a standard game term and therefore is being used with with different connotations by the people who wrote those rules.

But who knows?

Quote:

Throat Slicer (Combat)

Sometimes the only way to deal with those who see your illicit activities is to get rid of them.

Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +1.

Benefit(s): When using a one-handed, light, or natural weapon, you can deliver a coup de grace to an unconscious, bound, or pinned target (though not other kinds of helpless targets) as a standard action.

Throat Slicer actually suggests to me that the feat author thinks 'pinned' targets are helpless.


Matthew Downie wrote:

I'm sure DM_Blake will be happy to defend that six-and-a-half-year-old post.

I think most GMs think that if you were helpless the rules wouldn't say "A pinned creature cannot move and is flatfooted." It would say "A pinned creature is helpless." The word 'bound' isn't a standard game term and therefore is being used with with different connotations by the people who wrote those rules.

But who knows?

Quote:

Throat Slicer (Combat)

Sometimes the only way to deal with those who see your illicit activities is to get rid of them.

Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +1.

Benefit(s): When using a one-handed, light, or natural weapon, you can deliver a coup de grace to an unconscious, bound, or pinned target (though not other kinds of helpless targets) as a standard action.

Throat Slicer actually suggests to me that the feat author thinks 'pinned' targets are helpless.

That's been my thought as well. While the original authors of the conditions (which I believe were mostly written by WotC) may not have intended pinned to be helpless, it seems at least some of the current authors of pathfinder believe it to be.


I feel so silly for helping along thread necromancy.

Is this FAQ worthy?


It's been requested numerous times in the past, and if I recall, they've all been marked as 'answered by FAQ', with no apparent answer actually in there.


This one hasn't been marked as answered.


Matthew Downie wrote:

I'm sure DM_Blake will be happy to defend that six-and-a-half-year-old post.

I think most GMs think that if you were helpless the rules wouldn't say "A pinned creature cannot move and is flatfooted." It would say "A pinned creature is helpless." The word 'bound' isn't a standard game term and therefore is being used with with different connotations by the people who wrote those rules.

Pretty much what Matthew said. So much easier to say "Pinned characters are helpless" than it is to say what the rules actually say.

Furthermore, as I said in my ancient post, there is a clear distinction between the penalties someone gets for being helpless (for example, a helpless character has a DEX of 0 while a pinned character has his normal DEX).

Based on this, it looks very much like the RAW is treating Pinned and Helpless as two very different conditions.

Meanwhile, only Helpless creatures can be valid targets for a coup de grace.

I think this is a case of bad wording. Unfortunately, "bound" is not a game term. It can mean many things in English. "I'm bound for Paris", "I'm bound to make a mistake", "able to leap tall buildings in a single bound", "bound and gagged", etc.

The mistake here was that the rules very specifically say that you grapple, then you pin (if you want to), then you can bind (if you want to), so very clearly "bound" (as with ropes, etc.) is something you might do (if you want to) to a pinned enemy - which means that pinned is very clearly something that can happen without being "bound".

When the authors wrote "A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions", I think they meant "bound by the arms or legs or tentacles or other grappling appendages of their grappler". I don't think they meant to say "All pinned creatures have been bound by ropes".

In fact, I'm sure of it.

So, when you pin an enemy, you are using your arms (or whatever) to bind him so he gets the Pinned condition. But, if you wish, you can use a rope (etc.) to bind him even more thoroughly which causes him to get the Helpless condition.

It was an unfortunate choice of words that the developers said two different things using the same word ("bound"), but it's clear from the rules that it is two different things.


So let's FAQ this one, and see what happens.


I've FAQed it. I thought the answer was no, obviously you can't CdG someone who is pinned. But it appears to be not obvious enough, so it would be nice if the FAQ team could give a simple 'yes' or 'no' to the question.


For me it's a non question ...
Pinned simply does not in any way equal Helpless or "completely at an opponents mercy". Not when (or while) Pinned includes the ability to attempt to escape the condition or the ability to use spells and or SLA's.

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