So the only way to trip is with trip weapons. Unless you are a monk using a flurry.
Rule Zero and quit moaning, honestly.
Why would they state that you can drop a trip weapon to avoid being tripped if that is the only way TO trip?Kicking is an Unarmed Strike.
Why would "You can use a Trip weapon to Trip" be listed if it was entirely superfluous?
If any weapon could be used to trip but could only drop a Trip weapon (ignoring the fact that this would mean it's somehow easier to drop a staff than it is to drop a club), that line would read quite differently.
"If you would be tripped yourself while attempting a trip maneuver with a trip weapon, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped."
Again, it's not the only way to trip.
But, it is the only way to not be tripped when you roll so badly that you fail by 10 or more.
If a wolf tries to trip a deer and blows the roll, the wolf must fall down. He cannot drop his teeth.
If a monk, or fighter, or paladin, or whatever, decides to trip an orc, and to do so he probably uses his leg to sweept the orc's leg, and he fails by 10 or more, he cannot drop his own leg to avoid falling down.
But, if someone tries to trip that orc using a flail, or a whip, or any other eligible trip weapon, and fails by 10 or more, then can then choose to fall down and hang onto their weapon or simply drop their weapon and remain on their feet.
They would just say "if you fail to trip you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped" because you can't use anything else except for a trip weapon.
Still wrong.
The fact that they clarify that you CAN drop a trip weapon informs us that there is other ways to trip people.
Quite correct.
Nowhere in Trip, Improved Trip or under Trip weapons is there listed any other way to trip people if you read the Trip Weapon statement "you can use" to mean that you can't use other weapons.
You mean, there at the end, "other attacks" right?
Because it is quite clear that you can use other attacks, but you cannot use other weapons - any attack that does not involve a weapon that lacks the trip designation is fair game for tripping.
There are 10 trip weapons listed and under that interpretation of RAW, that is the ONLY way to trip. Unless you are a monk flurrying.
Still wrong. And I am quite sure you know it and by now you keep repeating this because you are simply trolling at this point.
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Fake Healer wrote:
By RAW interpretation it states you can only trip with tripping weapons.
No, it says you can attempt to trip with a melee attack. That might be a kick, sweep, bite (ala wolf), weapon, shove, whatever. You have already poointed out that it says you can make a trip attempt in place of a melee attack.
So why would you now state you must use a weapon? Surely wolves don't need to whip out a whip to trip a deer?
So, you may make a trip attempt with any melee attack. However, if you wish to use a weapon to make this trip attempt, then you need to wield a "trip" weapon since other weapons are not eligible for making trip attempts.
Wrong it doesn't say you can use a melee attack. It says you can trip "In place of a melee attack".
Wrong it doesn't say you can use a melee attack. It says you can trip "In place of a melee attack".Fake Healer wrote:
By RAW interpretation it states you can only trip with tripping weapons.
No, it says you can attempt to trip with a melee attack. That might be a kick, sweep, bite (ala wolf), weapon, shove, whatever. You have already poointed out that it says you can make a trip attempt in place of a melee attack.
So why would you now state you must use a weapon? Surely wolves don't need to whip out a whip to trip a deer?
So, you may make a trip attempt with any melee attack. However, if you wish to use a weapon to make this trip attempt, then you need to wield a "trip" weapon since other weapons are not eligible for making trip attempts.
You are quite correct.
So please explain for me the difference, since to me, that means pretty much the same thing.
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"You can trip with a melee attack" would allow usage of unarmed strikes, bites, kicks, etc. while "in place of a melee attack" does not. It only allows you to make as many trip attempts as you have via BAB. It doesn't qualify ANY melee attacks as tripping attacks.
and no, I am not trying to make a build or otherwise break the rules. I want clarification and your interpretation of the rules doesn't do anything except clarify your belief that "can" is a word that excludes items not following it and that somehow anything used for melee attacks can be used to trip with otherwise, even though there is no rules supporting that notion.
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Alright let's try this on.
"Hole Digging Apparatus
You can use a Hole digging apparatus to dig a hole. If the hole collapses in on you then you can use the hole digging apparatus to dig yourself free."
Is a shovel all you can use to dig a hole with? I have a list of garden tools. On that list is Hoe, Post Hole digger, and shovel. The shovel gives a +2 bonus to hole digging and is a special Hole Digging Apparatus.
I can still use the others to dig a hole but using the Hole Digging Apparatus gives me a special ability- to dig myself out if I am in a jam.
Sure a hoe isn't much good at digging a hole but it still can do the job, and a post hole digger is good at small diameter holes, and could be used to dig larger diameter holes but certainly not at digging myself out of a collapsed hole.
You can use a trip weapon to trip and gain a bonus ability.
Nothing about that says you can't use other weapons to trip, only that if you use a trip weapon to trip you gain a bonus ability.
I can walk up my stairs. That statement doesn't exclude me from running up my stairs or walking across my floor.
"You can trip with a melee attack" would allow usage of unarmed strikes, bites, kicks, etc. while "in place of a melee attack" does not.
No, "in place of a melee attack" means that you don't do melee damage (because you using a combat maneuver instead of a normal melee attack).
It's weird -- I can't tell if I'm agreeing with you or arguing with you!
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Well, yes, it does.In the real world, there are many kinds of vehicals. Cars, trucks, motorcycles, pogo sticks, airplanes, helicopters, hang gliders, trains, trollies, tractors, ships, boats, submarines... It's quite a big list. Some of those have a special quality we might call "flight". Vehicals with this special ability are vehicals like airplanes, helicopters, space ships, etc.
Somewhere in the big rulebook of life it states a rule that says "You can fly in a vehical with with the 'flight' quality." Nowhere in the big rulebook of life does it state that I cannot fly in the rest of the vehicals that lack the "flight" quality.
Still, for some reason, I cannot fly my car to work in the morning.
I suddenly have visions of Fred Flinstone's boss. Wasn't his office at the bottom of a quarry?