Grapple and Gorgon Fist


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Somebody that has the grappled condition cannot move - does this mean they are vulnerable to Gorgon Fist (as their effective speed is reduced)?


LoreKeeper wrote:

Somebody that has the grappled condition cannot move - does this mean they are vulnerable to Gorgon Fist (as their effective speed is reduced)?

Anybody please? :)

I argue that being grappled is a superior form to being entangled (i.e. grapple is an "active" grapple while entangle is a "passive" grapple); thus the grappled condition means that the movement is reduced - and thus the target is Gorgon Fist-able.


Well, the rules do not specifically forbid it, and it's true that a grappled creature has a 'reduced movement' (the creature's movement is effectively = 0).

Since Gorgon's Fist says that it works 'against a foe whose speed is reduced', it seems reasonable to allow the feat to work against a Grappled creature. It is possible that it wouldn't work against creatures whose 'original' base speed is already equal to 0 - but I cannot think of any of them... (maybe only a mold has a base speed of 0).

Just my 2c.


The Wraith wrote:

Well, the rules do not specifically forbid it, and it's true that a grappled creature has a 'reduced movement' (the creature's movement is effectively = 0).

Since Gorgon's Fist says that it works 'against a foe whose speed is reduced', it seems reasonable to allow the feat to work against a Grappled creature. It is possible that it wouldn't work against creatures whose 'original' base speed is already equal to 0 - but I cannot think of any of them... (maybe only a mold has a base speed of 0).

Just my 2c.

Thanks Wraith - the debate (with my GM) is still raging hard and heavy. In terms of raw power level I think there is no problem, since the target still has the ability to try and ungrapple with a standard action or do whatever else it would be. Additionally thematically it makes sense too - to have a feat to disable an enemy somewhat while grappling them.

(This assumes that the user has Greater Grapple, to be able to grapple and use a standard action for Gorgon Fist.)


LoreKeeper wrote:

Somebody that has the grappled condition cannot move - does this mean they are vulnerable to Gorgon Fist (as their effective speed is reduced)?

I would say no.

The target in question is hampered through an outside active force.
A speed reduction is something that affects the creatures actual speed stat.

This however raises the question whether you can use Gorgon's Fist on a person wearing medium or heavy armor. They do actually have their speed stat reduced.
I however don't think that would be in the spirit of the rules.


The Wraith wrote:

Well, the rules do not specifically forbid it, and it's true that a grappled creature has a 'reduced movement' (the creature's movement is effectively = 0).

Since Gorgon's Fist says that it works 'against a foe whose speed is reduced', it seems reasonable to allow the feat to work against a Grappled creature. It is possible that it wouldn't work against creatures whose 'original' base speed is already equal to 0 - but I cannot think of any of them... (maybe only a mold has a base speed of 0).

Just my 2c.

A grappled person cannot move, but that does not mean that the persons speed stat/movement has been reduced.

I think the intention is that a weakened or "crippled" person is vulnerable to the attack.


If a tanglefoot bag works, say (it seems clear to me that it would, since being entangled reduces your speed by 50%), then I'd certainly allow grappling to work as well (since the entangled condition is basically a subset of the grappled condition).


LoreKeeper wrote:
Somebody that has the grappled condition cannot move - does this mean they are vulnerable to Gorgon Fist (as their effective speed is reduced)?

I'd allow it, Grappling is such a righteous pain now to pull off, it doesn't seem unreasonable to allow some perk for someone who has invested this much in unarmed fighting.


Thanks people - it's been helpful, even if the issue is still somewhat unresolved. Will Paizo have some form of official rules/answers place to ask for some authoritative guidance on matters such as this?

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