Creative Director
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They are not, however, intentionally released knowing that there can be major continuity confusions caused by them. In general, errata or simple explanations can fix any of the errors in fully edited, released products. The entire canon heirarchy hinges on products at least trying to be canonical. Sure, web supplements can be considered a low-tier source, but they're still official products, and should be treated as such or not released. Or have a little extra time put into them to ensure that those of us who are concerned with continuity can have a few concrete dates instead of ambiguous ranges that are going to do nothing but cause confusion.If something might have mistakes in it, don't post it at all, is what I'm saying.I couldn't disagree more strongly. Every product ever released has mistakes in it.
Wow.
There's a WORLD of difference between "Releasing a product that folks ask for and we think they might like but not having the time to do an extra pass on the words, so rather than put it off for a week or two until we have time to turn our attention to it let's just throw it up on the blog," and "Let's intentionally release a product we KNOW will cause major continuity confusion."
I know you're disappointed by the blog post. I am too. Disappointed enough that now I'm unlikely to greenlight ANY content-related blog posts for a long time to come, simply because now I'm paranoid that any words we post will be given the same scrutiny and weight that a print book gets. That may have been a poor assumption on my part, I guess.
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Creative Director
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Actually... I have an idea.
Rather than take an hour or two out of my day to obsess and agonize over what is and isn't canon in the blog post... if someone can post a list of concerns to this thread (or just email them to me at james.jacobs@paizo.com), I'll make sure that those corrections get absorbed into the body of the blog post in question.
Thanks for all the canon watching, all, and for keeping us honest!
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What, so "Lokoris" is just a corrupted form of "Lucas"?
;)
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Director of Brand Strategy
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There's a WORLD of difference between "Releasing a product that folks ask for and we think they might like but not having the time to do an extra pass on the words, so rather than put it off for a week or two until we have time to turn our attention to it let's just throw it up on the blog," and "Let's intentionally release a product we KNOW will cause major continuity confusion."
I know you're disappointed by the blog post. I am too. Disappointed enough that now I'm unlikely to greenlight ANY content-related blog posts for a long time to come, simply because now I'm paranoid that any words we post will be given the same scrutiny and weight that a print book gets. That may have been a poor assumption on my part, I guess.
I wasn't trying to imply that it was an intentional decision of you or anyone else to put things up on the blog with errors in them. I would simply rather see less information than more information that may cause confusion. But again, I'm coming from this from one unique, and admittedly obsessive point of view, so if GMs and players in a campaign don't mind it and find the information useful, they should be able to have access to it. I actually really love the blog post. It's long and meaty and really detailed. My one gripe is that it isn't specific when it comes to the timeline.
I know you are extremely busy, and it wasn't my intention to get this particular post changed, but rather to bring to light something to keep in mind for the future. It, time permitting, three small changes could be made, I would ask simply for:
1) The year in which the play was originally written.
2) The year in which the ban on its staging was lifted.
3) The year in which the author disappeared.
I understand the concern of releasing too many dates because they are very easy to get wrong in future products. Also, I understand that giving every NPC a date of birth since GMs running campaigns of RotR in a decade or two don't want a 50 year old Ameiko. For events that probably won't be referenced in future products (which I assume is the case for the date of publication of the play in question) I don't see why a year can't be given. That's all.
Sorry if I came across as abrasive or demanding on the issue. It's really not that huge a deal in the scheme of things. It had raised a few questions for us on the wiki and I noticed others had the same confusion resulting from the "xxx years ago" phrases and thought I'd bring it up.
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epic awesomenessThat sounds more like a royal masque than a 'standard' opera, but The Daughters of Thalaria has just been added to my home game's canon as having been performed as part of Abrogail II's coronation festivities... Excellent stuff!
Thank you.... hmm, I found this and it sounds about on par with what I had in my mind.
EDIT: This too.
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epic awesomenessThat sounds more like a royal masque than a 'standard' opera, but The Daughters of Thalaria has just been added to my home game's canon as having been performed as part of Abrogail II's coronation festivities... Excellent stuff!Thank you.... hmm, I found this and it sounds about on par with what I had in my mind.
EDIT: This too.
So going to be played when my group does The Trials.
Looking back at this after a weekend of doing other things for a change I have to chime in. Really none of the concerns consider the original, 200 year old version of the Trials, written as a classic Everyman-style play centuries ago. It wasn't until a few dozen years ago that the more violent diabolical themed version arose, and an even shorter period since the more socially palatable adaptation of that.
(In other words, based on some of the comments in this thread, I've revised last week's blog to retcon and clarify some concerns with volume #26. Good to remember, though: the internet is where ideas go to die, so do take anything you see on the blog with a 5 pound bag of salt.)
If anyone needs dates or specific beyond this for their home games, feel free to make them up as you please!
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So going to be played when my group does The Trials.epic awesomenessThat sounds more like a royal masque than a 'standard' opera, but The Daughters of Thalaria has just been added to my home game's canon as having been performed as part of Abrogail II's coronation festivities... Excellent stuff!Thank you.... hmm, I found this and it sounds about on par with what I had in my mind.
EDIT: This too.
Ditto, I think I might need to buy the CD for that band. Their music seems dead on for this play.
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Umm, its not a band. And unfortunately their CDs aren't available to the public.
Two Steps From Hell is a company that makes music for movie previews. I wish their CDs were available to the public, cause I'd buy them up like that *snap*. But I guess they make more money selling their music to movie companies.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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In other words, based on some of the comments in this thread, I've revised last week's blog to retcon and clarify some concerns with volume #26. Good to remember, though: the internet is where ideas go to die, so do take anything you see on the blog with a 5 pound bag of salt.
Thanks, Wes. I for one appreciate your willingness to make these changes for us needy fans. We'll be addressing the canon status of blog posts on the wiki so that we don't have similar issues arise in the future. Sorry if I was a pain.
In other words, based on some of the comments in this thread, I've revised last week's blog to retcon and clarify some concerns with volume #26. Good to remember, though: the internet is where ideas go to die, so do take anything you see on the blog with a 5 pound bag of salt.Thanks, Wes. I for one appreciate your willingness to make these changes for us needy fans. We'll be addressing the canon status of blog posts on the wiki so that we don't have similar issues arise in the future. Sorry if I was a pain.
I concur. Thank you Wes and James for giving this some extra agony. In the end, I think it is for the best.
Thanks, Wes. I for one appreciate your willingness to make these changes for us needy fans. We'll be addressing the canon status of blog posts on the wiki so that we don't have similar issues arise in the future. Sorry if I was a pain.
I concur. Thank you Wes and James for giving this some extra agony. In the end, I think it is for the best.
See. Look James. They are nice people and they didn't mean to increase the size of your ulcer over the weekend. It all worked out for the best in the end and we learned a valuable lesson about the development cycle of content posts as it relates to these jackals-urk, I mean, dedicated and attentive readers.
On the other side of things, be nice to your editors - especially "experienced"(/aged), grumpy editors - for their efforts bring you many awesome things, yet their duties often put them one sideways comment away from running off to live with bigfoots (bigfeet?) on Orcas Island.
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Disappointed enough that now I'm unlikely to greenlight ANY content-related blog posts for a long time to come, simply because now I'm paranoid that any words we post will be given the same scrutiny and weight that a print book gets. That may have been a poor assumption on my part, I guess.
Now, I know you (read: Paizo) have fixed the blog post to your satisfaction, but it should be noted that the above statement is somewhat "baby out with the bathwater"! (To be honest, I thought Dark_Mistress's comment was great - the blog post certainly increased my interest in the product - while yoda8myhead's position is completely out of line, IMO... but thankfully he and his position have long since been screwed - such as when a writer decided to directly contradict what was in the PFCS in a different book simply because he didn't like the name in the PFCS... so good luck with keeping up with "canon"!)
AFAIC, the real problem is Paizo continually promising things in the printed product and then... this happens. It's not the first time, either. If what happened re: the blog post is such a concern, Paizo should refrain from continually sending people to the web from the print product if they really aren't that interested in putting the noted information up. Their choice. (And to reiterate my opinion just so there's no confusion: what I saw in the blog post was awesome. Losing that would have hurt the AP more than it helped. Canon-lawyers have cast a bit of a shadow on FR - it's probably not something to overly dwell on for Golarion, IMO, lest Golarion get the same 'reputation'.)
So, what Dark_Mistress said - more cutting room floor, please. Just note what it is!
I would like to see more instances of Paizo subscribing to the ethos of Cheliax and 'correcting' history.
I would like to see more instances of Paizo subscribing to the ethos of Cheliax and 'correcting' history.
Absent-mindedly slaps the devil across the face with a pseudonatural octopus.
I would like to see more instances of Paizo subscribing to the ethos of Cheliax and 'correcting' history.
Absent-mindedly slaps the devil across the face with a pseudonatural octopus.
You! Hurhk! Struggling with octopus. All coy and demure, pretending you were just another Chelaxian lass. Just wait till I get my talons on you, Ilsandra!
I would like to see more instances of Paizo subscribing to the ethos of Cheliax and 'correcting' history.
Absent-mindedly slaps the devil across the face with a pseudonatural octopus.
You! Hurhk! Struggling with octopus. All coy and demure, pretending you were just another Chelaxian lass. Just wait till I get my talons on you, Ilsandra!
Absently toying with a jellyfish.
Why, good sir, I fear you mistake me for someone else. Possibly me. If that makes any sense.
I would like to see more instances of Paizo subscribing to the ethos of Cheliax and 'correcting' history.
Absent-mindedly slaps the devil across the face with a pseudonatural octopus.
You! Hurhk! Struggling with octopus. All coy and demure, pretending you were just another Chelaxian lass. Just wait till I get my talons on you, Ilsandra!
Absently toying with a jellyfish.
Why, good sir, I fear you mistake me for someone else. Possibly me. If that makes any sense.
With the octopus only half removed and having to maneuver to avoid the lash like tentacles of the jellyfish, the devil heads out of the thread, pursued by and pursuing Lucinda. The fight moves off somewhere else...
Um...to get back to the topic.
Thanks for the correction. It is appreciated. I wonder if there might be a way to leverage one of Paizo's big strengths to help solve these types of problems. One of the things I admire most about Paizo is that they really get the customer relationship thing and understand how to leverage the web to facilitate that relationship.
What if you could find a way to enlist some of these rabid, and quite dedicated, fans in your quest to maintain continuity? You've got a ton of content in flow and the number of interfaces between different elements of that content goes up, well if not exponentially, at least geometrically with each addition.
You've got an involved, devoted and intelligent customer base. You've got the mechanism to communicate with them (and clearly see it as a core strategy of your business.) So how could you tap into them to keep things straight for you? Could you enlist (under NDA) a handful of fans as continuity editors that could unburden your internal editors in the early content passes? Could you have them create an "official" continuity site that your authors could reference to help them keep up?
Just some thoughts. You've got a huge asset with your fan base. You might think of how to leverage it to provide a better product and increase the loyalty to your brand at the same time.
What if you could find a way to enlist some of these rabid, and quite dedicated, fans in your quest to maintain continuity? You've got a ton of content in flow and the number of interfaces between different elements of that content goes up, well if not exponentially, at least geometrically with each addition.
...
Could you have them create an "official" continuity site that your authors could reference to help them keep up?
Have you seen the work being done on the PathfinderWiki?
Have you seen the work being done on the PathfinderWiki?What if you could find a way to enlist some of these rabid, and quite dedicated, fans in your quest to maintain continuity? You've got a ton of content in flow and the number of interfaces between different elements of that content goes up, well if not exponentially, at least geometrically with each addition.
...
Could you have them create an "official" continuity site that your authors could reference to help them keep up?
Yeah...that's why I put the quotes around "official". I'm guessing there would need to be some type of input to the site by Paizo before they'd want to instruct their authors to use it. So it would have to be sprinkled with holy water or beer or something.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Yeah...that's why I put the quotes around "official". I'm guessing there would need to be some type of input to the site by Paizo before they'd want to instruct their authors to use it. So it would have to be sprinkled with holy water or beer or something.
Well, we've been told that Paizo isn't really ready to start officially endorsing sites that operate under the Community Use Policy. That said, the editors and operations staff at Paizo have been incredibly supportive from day one. I do know that some freelancers do use the site, and John Wick has been quoting it on his series of behind-the-scenes blog posts regarding his upcoming NPCs in the <i>NPC Guide</i>. But until it's the most comprehensive resource on Golarion canon, freelancers will always be better served going to direct sources. But if it's something you're into, you are more than welcome to come and contribute and help it become that sort of resource, official or not.
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Creative Director
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Yeah...that's why I put the quotes around "official". I'm guessing there would need to be some type of input to the site by Paizo before they'd want to instruct their authors to use it. So it would have to be sprinkled with holy water or beer or something.
Right now, no one at Paizo has the free time to manage something as intensive as a wiki or a public canon tracking site. We do lots of that stuff in house, but it's not really formatted for a way to share with the public (as in large parts of the canon tracking are in the heads of the people who work at Paizo, and we just use instant message to ask others).
So for the meantime, the Pathfinder Wiki is about as official as it gets. And I strongly suspect that it's as official as it ever needs to be. As in... if we WERE to make it "official" without the quotes... it'd pretty much look the same.
We use the Wiki at Paizo now and then, in any case. It's good stuff.
That said... we're also not afraid to retcon or let some stuff in "canon" go if we realize we let in something we don't necessarily like or isn't good for Golarion. I know this tends to drive canon trackers like Yoda up the wall, but there's really nothing to be done for it. There's too much being created for Pathifnder for one person to approve everything for, and sometimes things like wand rifles slip through the cracks and we have to sweep them back under the carpet and hope folks eventually forget about them. ;-)
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Yeah...that's why I put the quotes around "official". I'm guessing there would need to be some type of input to the site by Paizo before they'd want to instruct their authors to use it. So it would have to be sprinkled with holy water or beer or something.Right now, no one at Paizo has the free time to manage something as intensive as a wiki or a public canon tracking site. We do lots of that stuff in house, but it's not really formatted for a way to share with the public (as in large parts of the canon tracking are in the heads of the people who work at Paizo, and we just use instant message to ask others).
So for the meantime, the Pathfinder Wiki is about as official as it gets. And I strongly suspect that it's as official as it ever needs to be. As in... if we WERE to make it "official" without the quotes... it'd pretty much look the same.
We use the Wiki at Paizo now and then, in any case. It's good stuff.
That said... we're also not afraid to retcon or let some stuff in "canon" go if we realize we let in something we don't necessarily like or isn't good for Golarion. I know this tends to drive canon trackers like Yoda up the wall, but there's really nothing to be done for it. There's too much being created for Pathifnder for one person to approve everything for, and sometimes things like wand rifles slip through the cracks and we have to sweep them back under the carpet and hope folks eventually forget about them. ;-)
Immediately adds wand rifles to home game.
What? They'll make a nice addition next to the dwarven axe-shotgun.
Anyway I liked reading about the history of the play, please feel free to put up as much cutting room floor as you'd like.
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I've been excited about this play since before I knew this play existed. I, for one, am planning on hamming up this thing hardcore, and as the most-likely person to play Larazod (my character's Perform (act) is kinda disturbingly high), I'll be getting a lot of time to shout out all sorts of fun things.
If we can scrounge up a digital camera with a video recording option that doesn't suck, I'll get someone to upload it and show it off. I will forewarn you: I've got no formal (or informal) actorly training, but I am a pompous windbag with a very high opinion of myself, so that's, like, the same thing, right?
And I demand much links to Logue's students performing the play when/if such a production occurs. If no video evidence of this event comes to pass, the world indeed will explode. Like, ten times. I saw it once. It weren't pretty.
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I performed the first act by myself yesterday. Haanderthan with a Vincent Price voice that sent chills down my spine. So far, he's my favorite to act.
I think it would be far more compelling as a radio play. (i.e. we could put more realistic torture noises in it than we could if performing it on stage).
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That said... we're also not afraid to retcon or let some stuff in "canon" go if we realize we let in something we don't necessarily like or isn't good for Golarion. I know this tends to drive canon trackers like Yoda up the wall, but there's really nothing to be done for it. There's too much being created for Pathifnder for one person to approve everything for, and sometimes things like wand rifles slip through the cracks and we have to sweep them back under the carpet and hope folks eventually forget about them. ;-)
Sometimes in the same book you introduce it in! Like the Sargavan goop!
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Creative Director
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Sometimes in the same book you introduce it in! Like the Sargavan goop!
That said... we're also not afraid to retcon or let some stuff in "canon" go if we realize we let in something we don't necessarily like or isn't good for Golarion. I know this tends to drive canon trackers like Yoda up the wall, but there's really nothing to be done for it. There's too much being created for Pathifnder for one person to approve everything for, and sometimes things like wand rifles slip through the cracks and we have to sweep them back under the carpet and hope folks eventually forget about them. ;-)
Ugh... the goop. I wish I'd known that that stuff was mentioned in two places in the book, since I specifically cut the info and rules for it from the equipment section because it was:
a) silly
b) poorly designed
c) silly
d) not appropriate for the flavor of the world
and e) silly
I have to chime in on Sir Charles' side on this one - the goop came across as believable, based on some of the stories from 'Nam my uncles would tell me. "Goop" if anything is probably a rather 'polite' nomenclature for the stuff...
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I have to chime in on Sir Charles' side on this one - the goop came across as believable, based on some of the stories from 'Nam my uncles would tell me. "Goop" if anything is probably a rather 'polite' nomenclature for the stuff...
And sounds sort of like another 'impolite' terms people used for people in the 'Nam.
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Aww... honestly, I LIKED wand rifles. Honestly, if I wasn't gonna get guns (which, at the time I was doing that adventure, seemed unlikely), at least having a rifle-like item for my sorcerer felt appropriate. Kept me from screaming "MOAR GUNZ" at you guys, at least. :D
Now, "goop" does sound funny, but I haven't heard a person who ran in that adventure at PaizoCon complain. Not about the "goop" name, at least. Not that it ain't goofy. But D&D's full of goofy, and some of it has stuck around for the long-term.
Obvious examples exist, and I'm hardly a D&D historian, so I won't go into those. Instead, I'm gonna get all anecdotal here. And yes, I understand that some things in a home game wouldn't translate well outside that game, but hear me out. Rigby would thank you.
While running Savage Tide, my former roommate and co-conspirator, Ben, wanted a cohort for his PC. We'd been watching a lot of "Kolchak: The Nightstalker" at the time, and since Savage Tide had some serious ties to Olman culture, he decided to name his cohort Machu Manedo (after the episode "The Energy Eater," if I recall). I rolled my eyes. Seriously. I really did. Like, a lot.
At first.
After Manedo's debut as a porter for Ben's PC, and after a critical roll with a crossbow left a dockside thug dead in the water just before killing one of the PCs, I took notice. Soon, Manedo (as we eventually called him) was a beloved teammate and one of our prominent front-liners, and any reference to his original, goofy origins was all but forgotten.
I'm not saying all the goofy ideas are golden. But I'd let the fans let you know if an idea's too goofy for Golarion before giving it the RetCon burial. After all, people still remember tribbles, no matter how goofy they may be.
And Boomer and I are still hoping to write up a Numeria mega-adventure as soon as you guys are willing to take it. Just sayin'. :D
I performed the first act by myself yesterday. Haanderthan with a Vincent Price voice that sent chills down my spine. So far, he's my favorite to act.
I think it would be far more compelling as a radio play. (i.e. we could put more realistic torture noises in it than we could if performing it on stage).
As a big radio fan I think that's a great idea:)
Rich
If it does anything other than shoot a spread of axes, I'll be disappointed.
Why am I picturing the "triple shot" from Gauntlet Legends now?
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Contra
Spread
Konami
Oh, you mean the "I can see anything else on the screen because we both have these and we're both firing them" guns?
Also known as the "I'd rather die than try to finish the game now that I just lost the gun" gun?
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Oh, you mean the "I can see anything else on the screen because we both have these and we're both firing them" guns?
Also known as the "I'd rather die than try to finish the game now that I just lost the gun" gun?
Yeah, that's it. The good one. ^_^
Why am I picturing the "triple shot" from Gauntlet Legends now?If it does anything other than shoot a spread of axes, I'll be disappointed.
That was my first thought as well.
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I don't think that I ever stated this for the record, so I'll go ahead:
I love that you included the play in this chapter!
Ugh... the goop. I wish I'd known that that stuff was mentioned in two places in the book, since I specifically cut the info and rules for it from the equipment section because it was:a) silly
b) poorly designed
c) silly
d) not appropriate for the flavor of the world
and e) silly
I actually LIKE the goop! Sometimes, a world needs some silly. All work and no play, that kind of thing.
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Creative Director
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I actually LIKE the goop! Sometimes, a world needs some silly. All work and no play, that kind of thing.
I agree that silly stuff is good for the game. Look at the goblins for proof.
The goop is silly in the wrong ways, I think. It's not silly in game, it's just silly mechanics-wise. And that's not so funny. Comedy belongs in the flavor, not in the crunch.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Sometimes in the same book you introduce it in! Like the Sargavan goop!
That said... we're also not afraid to retcon or let some stuff in "canon" go if we realize we let in something we don't necessarily like or isn't good for Golarion. I know this tends to drive canon trackers like Yoda up the wall, but there's really nothing to be done for it. There's too much being created for Pathifnder for one person to approve everything for, and sometimes things like wand rifles slip through the cracks and we have to sweep them back under the carpet and hope folks eventually forget about them. ;-)Ugh... the goop. I wish I'd known that that stuff was mentioned in two places in the book, since I specifically cut the info and rules for it from the equipment section because it was:
a) silly
b) poorly designed
c) silly
d) not appropriate for the flavor of the world
and e) silly
I played in Mike Kortes' "Gunked in Goop" game at PaizoCon and it was great. I don't mind a bit if it's not the sort of thing you want to exist generally in the campaign world, but for a one-off adventure it was a perfectly fun game quirk to make things a little more challenging.