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Can a weapon be enchanted with both frost and flaming?


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Stynkk wrote:

I'm glad we've established that it is perfectly fine to have multiple elemental damage sources on a weapon.

Nostagar wrote:
Ignoring all the rules lawyering for a moment, lets look at it in terms of game balance.

Your view of game balance needs to go a little further.

For a warrior to attain the weapons you speak of he has to spend at least 324,000 GP PLUS any armor or other items that they have. And have to wait for the items to get crafted and find available spellcasters. This is generally not possible until roughly level 17.

And a wizard has to wake up..

it is actually a lot harder to obtain such weapons than people are suggesting. I'm not sure why people judge things in a vaccuum.

What targets are you attacking? Is concealment involved? Have you accounted that the fighter's last iterative attacks may not actually hit? The fighter can't move if he wants to full attack, did you account for this damage dip in your calculations?

Many enemies at the 20th level have energy resistance of more than 5. Was this accounted for?

There's also the fact that the wizard has to expend at least a spell slot to do that damage whereas a fighter can do that virtually at will.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Regrs wrote:


@mdt
Plus in the hands of a fighter with weapon mastery it should deal +8d10 "elemental" damage and it will always confirm, so over +1 enhancement isn't totally necessary (for a fighter).
As for DR if you feel uneasy with it make it from adamantine (bypasses all DR except DR/Alignment)

20th level fighter with weapon mastery attacking 20th level fighter who's maxed out his AC. Fighter A has total attack of +35. Fighter B has total AC of 45.

Fighter A needs a 10 to hit. He's using a +1 Rapier of Frosting Burst, Flaming Burst, Corrosive Burst, Shocking Burst. Assuming he has Improved Critical, then his crit range is 15-20.

He rolls a 15, hits, threatens a critical. Rolls an 8, fails to confirm.

He rolls a 10, hits, doesn't threaten.

I repeat again, very slowly, threatening a critical is not the same as automatically getting it. It doesn't matter what your class is, it doesn't matter what your build is. There will be something that has enough AC for you to miss confirming that critical.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
mdt wrote:
Regrs wrote:


@mdt
Plus in the hands of a fighter with weapon mastery it should deal +8d10 "elemental" damage and it will always confirm, so over +1 enhancement isn't totally necessary (for a fighter).
As for DR if you feel uneasy with it make it from adamantine (bypasses all DR except DR/Alignment)

20th level fighter with weapon mastery attacking 20th level fighter who's maxed out his AC. Fighter A has total attack of +35. Fighter B has total AC of 45.

Fighter A needs a 10 to hit. He's using a +1 Rapier of Frosting Burst, Flaming Burst, Corrosive Burst, Shocking Burst. Assuming he has Improved Critical, then his crit range is 15-20.

He rolls a 15, hits, threatens a critical. Rolls an 8, fails to confirm.

He rolls a 10, hits, doesn't threaten.

I repeat again, very slowly, threatening a critical is not the same as automatically getting it. It doesn't matter what your class is, it doesn't matter what your build is. There will be something that has enough AC for you to miss confirming that critical.

FYI

Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow.
Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.

If you threat and pass AC of opponent you may crit. Weapon Mastery removes the requirement of confirming the threats, meaning simply if you threat you get to crit.

@Jiraiya22
I stand corrected enhancements may overcome DR, materials won't except specified. Thx!


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Regrs wrote:


Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.

Huh,

Ok, stand corrected then. I missed that line somehow.


Raestlin wrote:
I believe I answered this earlier, activating a command on an item ends any current commands ON THAT ITEM.

Sorry to necro the thread, but this is so wrong I need to answer. So if you have an item that allow you to fly, and cast true seeing, if you use the command word for true seeing while flying... you fall? That's not how it works it.

On a side issue, and the reason I was using the searcher and found this thread: Jacobs answer about the flame sword in a seath under the pillow, seem to imply that the sword can be activated while in the sheath, as it does not harm *you* (or your gear). I have seen similar answers from him in the past, hinting it, but never got a definitive quote.

Anybody knows if you can have a flaming (or frost, shock, etc) weapon activated an sheathed?


Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Shinmizu wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
Killjoy!
He doesn't want anyone to one-shot the T-1000.
Maybe if the sword was cold one round then hot the next... That would be a different thing altogether though and is not at all how this works. Flaming is always flaming and damages things with heat. Frost is always cold and damages with cold.

Things are called "Magic" for a reason.


Mix fire and ice, get steam.

So either the wielder of the weapon wants to fill rooms with steam, or just alternate between fire and ice like a showoff.

I'd rather just call up an army of Blackfire Adepts and have them break reality with unstable magic. It's more chaotic, and more fun!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Soo.... regardless of whether you can make a flaming frost weapon or have both active at the same time, what about class abilities that add such properties?

Like an arcane archer or a magus?

Lets say an arcane archer is able to add the shock property to any arrow he looses, and the bow has the flaming property. He does get both then correct?


Fatespinner wrote:
addy grete wrote:
Can a weapon be enchanted with both frost and flaming special abilities?
No reason it couldn't be. As far as I'm aware, there are no "mutually exclusive" enchants.

Ranged weapon only and melee weapon only?


deuxhero wrote:
Fatespinner wrote:
addy grete wrote:
Can a weapon be enchanted with both frost and flaming special abilities?
No reason it couldn't be. As far as I'm aware, there are no "mutually exclusive" enchants.
Ranged weapon only and melee weapon only?

Those are not enhancements. They are weapon categories which sometimes an enhancement is restricted to. Fatespinner was speaking of the enhancement itself. As an example if an enhancement were to say if you use holy then you are restricted from applying the unholy enhancement since agreeing to add the one enhancement would forbid you from applying the 2nd one.


Actually I just remembered one that completely is mutally exclusive with others: Runeforged


deuxhero wrote:
Actually I just remembered one that completely is mutally exclusive with others: Runeforged

What does it block you from taking applying to the weapon?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Shinmizu wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
Killjoy!
He doesn't want anyone to one-shot the T-1000.
Maybe if the sword was cold one round then hot the next... That would be a different thing altogether though and is not at all how this works. Flaming is always flaming and damages things with heat. Frost is always cold and damages with cold.
Things are called "Magic" for a reason.

I call it out-of-context Necrophillia myself.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

My logical reasoning, and understanding of real world thermodynamics, has lead me to believe that the magical enchantments in this particular fantasy game does not work the way you believe it does.

It is also because of this scientific deconstruction of magical formulas, that I have decided that the rules are incorrect, and those rules that I do agree with, are simply misunderstood by others, because my reading of them is correct.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Shinmizu wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
Killjoy!
He doesn't want anyone to one-shot the T-1000.
Maybe if the sword was cold one round then hot the next... That would be a different thing altogether though and is not at all how this works. Flaming is always flaming and damages things with heat. Frost is always cold and damages with cold.
Things are called "Magic" for a reason.

EXACTLY. I wonder how people find so many problems with willing suspension of disbelieve in a fire that is cold, but they don't when that very same fire does not harm the wielder. So they need to look at basic thermondinamyc laws for fire vs cold, but they don't for fire vs your own flesh, "because it's magic". It's kinda ironic.

That said, "frostfire" is a well stablished fantasy genre trope ("a fire so cold that it burns", in Ben Ten parlance, or the "frostfire bolts" in WoW, or the Icy Flames of Zelda), so I don't know why would anyone feel it is unnapropiated to have it in a weapon in a fantasy game. But if yoour DM does, just take "fire" and "shock" properties. Electric fires are quite common, to the point the firemans have special countermeasures when those happen.


wraithstrike wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
Actually I just remembered one that completely is mutally exclusive with others: Runeforged
What does it block you from taking applying to the weapon?

Any one of the "Runeforged" enchantments blocks (or at least gives major penalties if the weapon also has) the other Runeforged enchantments.


By the general rules you can't apply the same enhancement to a weapon twice anyway. That is more of a reminder than a special rule. I wish they had put that reminder on the bane enhancement.

Star Voter 2013

wraithstrike wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
Fatespinner wrote:
addy grete wrote:
Can a weapon be enchanted with both frost and flaming special abilities?
No reason it couldn't be. As far as I'm aware, there are no "mutually exclusive" enchants.
Ranged weapon only and melee weapon only?

Those are not enhancements. They are weapon categories which sometimes an enhancement is restricted to. Fatespinner was speaking of the enhancement itself. As an example if an enhancement were to say if you use holy then you are restricted from applying the unholy enhancement since agreeing to add the one enhancement would forbid you from applying the 2nd one.

Maybe merciful and deadly.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Things are called "Magic" for a reason.

QFT.

It's magic, people.


Nicos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
Fatespinner wrote:
addy grete wrote:
Can a weapon be enchanted with both frost and flaming special abilities?
No reason it couldn't be. As far as I'm aware, there are no "mutually exclusive" enchants.
Ranged weapon only and melee weapon only?

Those are not enhancements. They are weapon categories which sometimes an enhancement is restricted to. Fatespinner was speaking of the enhancement itself. As an example if an enhancement were to say if you use holy then you are restricted from applying the unholy enhancement since agreeing to add the one enhancement would forbid you from applying the 2nd one.

Maybe merciful and deadly.

They can be placed on the same weapon also. They just can't be activated at the same time. I think this is the closet by RAW that you can get though.

Scarab Sages

Drawmij's_Heir wrote:

Plus each of these properties add to the overall cost of the weapon, and after only a couple of "pluses" things tend to get really expensive. Wouldn't it be wiser in this case to diversify the powers into other properties such as Ghost Touch, or Bane?

It's not always a question of cost. Take the magus for example. If going for pure dpr against something he can already hit trivially there is little reason not to spend 1 point of arcane pool to add multiple energy forms.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Eben TheQuiet wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Things are called "Magic" for a reason.

QFT.

It's magic, people.

I disagree. Your idea is too narrow.

It's fantasy, people. Let it be fantastic.


: shrugs :

I agree... that, too.


Dennis Baker wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Shinmizu wrote:
Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
Killjoy!
He doesn't want anyone to one-shot the T-1000.
Maybe if the sword was cold one round then hot the next... That would be a different thing altogether though and is not at all how this works. Flaming is always flaming and damages things with heat. Frost is always cold and damages with cold.
Things are called "Magic" for a reason.
I call it out-of-context Necrophillia myself.

I think I quoted the wrong message; sorry.


It's MAGIC!


wraithstrike wrote:
By the general rules you can't apply the same enhancement to a weapon twice anyway. That is more of a reminder than a special rule. I wish they had put that reminder on the bane enhancement.

I dunno, I think Bane falls under the same category as the Evil Eye Hex, it's actually a bunch of Enhancements all under the same umbrella

Bane (Humanoid (human)) isn't the same as Bane (Construct).
especially since bane is more of a "oh that's nice" bonus then a "and I add this and this and this" effect.
plus Multiple banes don't stack, meaning a half-elf wont get double hit by a human/elf bane weapon.
just my two copper.

as for the Fire/Frost/Shocking/Corrosive weapon, that's a +5 equiv (after the initial +1) for 4D6 damage, all of which falls apart to multiple resist 5, like an Aasimar ignores cold, electricity and acid, meaning only the 1D6 fire is really relevant, beyond that none of them are multiplied on a crit, doesn't really seem like a fair tradeoff.


Flaming: Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire that deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given.

The RAW does not specify that either the command to activate the ability , or the command to deactivate it, are specific commands for that ability. Ergo, not only will any command turn off any active elemental effect(s) on the weapon, but any command will turn them all on! So not only is it possible to have more than one effect active at a time, it is not possible to select only one.

Sczarni

For those of you saying "Not if I am a GM." and "Doesn't make sense." Please recall; you are playing a game with MAGIC IN IT. 'Nuf said, of course you could have a cold/hot weapon. I mean, it doesn't make sense that FLAMES would spring forth from a blade to begin with. Why not both?


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http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2k2i5?Why-are-weapon-energy-effects-command-wor d#20

Jacobs specifically states that the effect stays on until you turn it off, not until you turn on something completely different.


To start things off people seem to be forgetting the number one rule. The GM has the final say in what happens. If a GM says it doesn't work then it won't. People seem to be in agreement on the subject of Flame/Frost/Acid Weapons but I did the math anyway. It has been pointed out that the weapons can remain on indefinitely and through being sheathed and the such. If a player had a +1 Flaming Frost weapon but could only have one activated it still costs 18,300+ weapon gold. If they had two +1 weapons with one being Flaming and the other being Frost it costs 16,600+ weapons gold. It is a standard action to activate the Flaming or Frost ability of the single weapon in the case where he needs to change elements. That player in question will not be attacking that turn. The player using two weapons can return his drawn weapon to sheath using his move action if he needs to change elements. He also gets no attacks this turn but he can use his standard as a move to draw the other element weapon. With BAB +1 you could even do it as part of a move action so both players can still take a move action that turn. The player with 2 weapons also has the option to use the quick draw feat to free action draw his other weapon and make one attack that turn. If different elements don't work together then it is just better to use more than one weapon. A +1 Flame Frost Acid weapon costs 32,300+ weapon gold while three weapons that are each +1 with one element total costs 24,900+ weapons gold. It is the exact same scenario as above. The only benefit with one weapon is it saves on weight but a rough 7,000 gold difference is more than enough to buy a bag of holding. On a logic note how does a Flaming weapon made by any character later realize there is a new command word on it to activate Frost thus turning off flaming. Example: A level 10 wizard adds Flaming to a weapon with the command "Bunny" to ignite or snuff out. At level 13 he then takes the same weapon and puts Frost on it with the command "Apple" to become cold or return to normal. Anytime between level 10 and level 13 the word "Apple" would not have extinguished the Flaming ability. Somehow the new Frost ability has changed the way the Flaming ability works. It is not impossible to have purposefully made the frost ability deactivate upon the word "Bunny" but the Flaming ability would have had to recognize the command "Apple" far before Frost was even on the weapon. Anyone who thinks the magic is so advanced that Flaming knows to turn off should consider that it could also be so advanced that it can function simultaneously. Just the end of my long rant and all who made it to the bottom gain 9,600 exp and 3,000 gold in rare jewels.


addy grete wrote:
Can a weapon be enchanted with both frost and flaming special abilities?

Nothing against it, I'll allow it!


If I'm the DM no fire and frost at the same time.

But the party may encounter a weapon of random elements.

Roll a d6 to determine if extra damage is: fire, cold, acid, electricity, negative energy, positive energy.

Advantage: better chance the enemy won't have resistance to the attack
Disadvantage: 1 in 6 chance of healing enemy

The Exchange

If I were using technology, I'd have little or no difficulty producing a device that sent out a blowtorch flame just millimeters from something supercoooled. (It'd take a lot of power to keep it supercooled, but...) While I understand the reason so many GMs consider it counterintuitive, I say - nothing wrong with a double-edged sword that burns on one edge and freezes on the other. Or a morningstar with each point delivering a different flavor of pain.

(Wait, how did we get onto this house-rules topic? Usually this forum sticks to What Is Written, doesn't it?)


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Sometimes DM'S are just wrong.


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Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Sometimes DM'S are just wrong.

Rule 0.1: In the event the GM is wrong, see Rule 0.


My own personal games that I run I do not allow it in the sense that you cannot have both enchantments on at the same time.

This is because the command words on magic items in my game are not customizable.

In a RAW game where the DM allows you to attune the weapon enchantments to the same command word, then you can in fact use a frost/flaming sword.

There is nothing saying that one could not have both enchantments on the same weapon, only ways to circumvent being able to use them simultaneously.

Aside: if you are willing to dip into 3.5 materials that cannot be brought over due to copyright reasons, there was an enchantment from the MIC called Energy Aura that was a +2 enchantment that let you switch which element you were getting from your D6 damage. Essentially, it was all four of them for a +2 enchantment. There was also an Energy Burst one, that had to match your elemental damage.

Description of Andúril wrote:
Very bright was that sword when it was made whole again; the light of the sun shone redly in it, and the light of the moon shone cold, and its edge was hard and keen. And Aragorn gave it a new name and called it Andúril, Flame of the West.

It is implied by those who like to overlap Tolkien lore with that of DnD lore that Aragorn's sword was in fact a +5 flaming, frost, keen bastard sword.

Silver Crusade

In the Middle Earth RPG (using Rolemaster rules) Anduril was indeed their equivalent of flaming and frost simultaneously.

In 3rd ed and PF rules there is no reason that the same weapon can't have, and use, both on the same damage roll.

Sovereign Court Star Voter 2015

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

i agree ok by RAW, but oh so silly, as the heat generated by the flaming would be absorbed by the cold generated by the frosting (as per the universal law of entropy)


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
i agree ok by RAW, but oh so silly, as the heat generated by the flaming would be absorbed by the cold generated by the frosting (as per the universal law of entropy)

Meh. Whacking someone with a magic stick might not be a closed system.

Sczarni

If I am correct, you can only have one of the energies active at one time for the regular 1D6 damage but if you purchased multiple of the energy bursts, they would all activate on a crit.

Lantern Lodge

"Frost-fire", "Blue-flame", and "rime fire" are somewhat common things in fantasy. The DnD 3.5 frost book (Forgot the name of it, GRRR) explained that there were fires that burned cold instead of hot. They were so cold that they would burn. Such a weapon could be one of these.

So why not? It's magic!


Ulfen Death Squad wrote:
If I am correct, you can only have one of the energies active at one time for the regular 1D6 damage but if you purchased multiple of the energy bursts, they would all activate on a crit.

Nope, you can have any or all of them active at any one time.

While each is activated, or deactivated, by its own action they can be left on indefinitely.


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blahpers wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Sometimes DM'S are just wrong.
Rule 0.1: In the event the GM is wrong, see Rule 0.

If a DM wants to go against the official rules and establish houserules, then yes he is always correct in a sense. If a DM insists on following the official rules and then gets them wrong, then yeah he's wrong.


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FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

"Frost-fire", "Blue-flame", and "rime fire" are somewhat common things in fantasy. The DnD 3.5 frost book (Forgot the name of it, GRRR) explained that there were fires that burned cold instead of hot. They were so cold that they would burn. Such a weapon could be one of these.

So why not? It's magic!

Yeah, I can never remember where I saw it whenever this conversation comes up, but I distinctly remember reading developer commentary in an official source at some point (probably for 3.5) that there's absolutely nothing wrong with combining energy types on weapons. People tend to look funnily at a flaming frost sword, but nobody thinks a shocking acid sword wouldn't work. Let it all function if the character wants to spend the money on it. After all, it's a game with flying dragons and 600 year old elves who can summon demons out of thin air, but we're drawing the line at the weapon equivalent of Icy Hot?

The Exchange

You think this is bad? The Blade of Aknar Ratalla (from Dungeon magazine, named for a fanatical anti-theist) was a holy unholy outsider-bane (good) outsider-bane (evil) weapon. Flaming frost is nothin'!

Liberty's Edge

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First, this thread is from 09, I doubt anyone cares about your input. However I feel it necessary to address something:

Swallowed Pride wrote:
To start things off people seem to be forgetting the number one rule. The GM has the final say in what happens. If a GM says it doesn't work then it won't.

And that has absolutely no bearing, what so ever, on the actual rules of the game, which are what get discussed in the rules forum.


In icewindale II there is indeed a Flaming frost (bastard?)Longsword. A cool item, nothing wrong with it.


Swallowed Pride wrote:
To start things off people seem to be forgetting the number one rule. The GM has the final say in what happens. If a GM says it doesn't work then it won't.

This is the official rules thread. GM's opinions really don't matter here. This is not a "how should the GM run it" section. It is a "how do the devs intend for it to be ran" section.

And before you use the "entitled player" response, I am a GM, a lot more than I am a player. I just know that what I allow, and what the rules allow are two completely different things.

PS: It is hard to convey tone of voice online, so I am not being snarky. This is just a reminder that you are in the rules area, not the advice or house rule section.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

The effect remains until another command is given.

Some basic reading comprehension here. Another command is not the same thing as any other command. If I told you one button will turn on the lights and another button will turn off the lights, and you see a bank of a dozen buttons you wouldn't expect any button to turn of the lights. You would have expect their to be a button that will turn on the lights, a button that turns off the lights and that the other buttons did something else (or perhaps nothing).

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
but oh so silly, as the heat generated by the flaming would be absorbed by the cold generated by the frosting (as per the universal law of entropy)

That's not how physics works. Equalizing temperatures takes time.

I've seen people successfully smoke cigarettes outside when the temp was at -20F (or -35F with windchill). The cigarette is still able to burn.

Anyone who owns a microwave and pays any attention at all knows that you better stir what you heat up, or else there will be some spots that will burn your mouth while other spots are room temperature at best. This is also why you're supposed to warm baby formula using a slower method rather than microwaving it, because otherwise it could seem "warm" where you touch it but have other spots that are so hot they'll hurt the baby.

When you're doing dishes and the water's cooling down, you can run scalding hot water into the sink, and for several seconds you can feel a stark difference between the area of the sink where the hot water's coming in and the opposite side where it's still cool.

More times than I can count, I've been outside on a day when the air was cool and crisp but the sunlight was nice and warm; you feel both the heat and the cold on your skin at the same time, not just an in-between temperature.

Hot and cold can easily exist next to each other, even within the same object, for some time—especially if you have an ongoing source of heat and cold. The law of entropy does not contradict this.

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