I am thinking of combining the feats of Improved Bull Rush with Improved Overun, and also Improved Disarm with Improved Sunder. (I would of course do the same with the Greater forms of these).
I think the general mechanics of these combat maneuvers are very similar and I think the feats would be more useful (and attractive) if I were to group them. Can anyone identify any major problems with this?
I am tempted to group Improved Grapple and Improved Unarmed Strike, but it sort of feels like I'd be grouping wrestling with boxing. I'm not sure they really combine well, but perhaps it would just be a form of "ultimate fighting".
There are no other real "precision-based" combat maneuvers to group trip with, so its still on it's own.
I'm assuming you mean just combining the feats into one feat and not combining the actions they boost into one...right?
If you're just combining the feats, then that's a fine idea.
Grouping Imp. Unarmed with Imp. Grapple makes perfect sense, especially in the greater context of D&D combat (most of which is either with weapons or with spells). If this were UFC d20 you might want a higher resolution there, but when everyone else is carrying a sword or mace, the thematic distinction between different bare-handed styles (striking vs. ground-fighting) isn't that important.
I'm assuming you mean just combining the feats into one feat and not combining the actions they boost into one...right?
Right. Improved Bull Rush and Improved Overrun would cease to exist and become a new feat, something like "Forceful Tactics". This feat would give you +2 to CMB & CMD for bull rushes and overruns.
Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder would become "Finesse Tactics"
Improved Grapple and Improved Unarmed Combat would become "Unarmed Tactics"
I am certainly open to alternative names for these feats.
I was also thinking that since I am tinkering with the rules, I hate to leave Trip all alone, so I am trying to come up with a maneuver tactic that also involves unbalancing someone. The difficult part here though, is that there are no "conditions" for either being un-balanced, off-balanced or on unsteady ground. (There are Acrobatics checks for these though). So now for me to do this, I need to create a new "unsteady" condition.
In trying to decide what the unsteady penalties should be, I believe they should be less severe than those for being prone.
So here is what I have come up with:
Unsteady
Unsteady characters are off-balanced and suffer a -2 penalty on attacks, armor class and reflex saves. Unsteady characters do not gain any attack bonuses for flanking, however they do still threaten the squares around them and their allies do gain flanking bonuses from them.
The benefit of using this over trip, is that you don't risk getting counter-maneuvered (tripped) if you fail the maneuver.
The combat maneuver would be:
Unbalance
You can attempt to unbalance your opponent in place of a melee attack, by using your weapon to push them off balance. You can only unbalance an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Interference Tactic feat, or a similar ability, initiating an unbalance maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target gains the unsteady condition for 1 round. The target may instead chose to make an Acrobatics skill check instead of using their CMD, however this choice must be made prior to making the combat maneuver attack roll.
And the feat would be:
Interference Tactics (Yeah I know, I have to come up with a better name for this).
You are skilled at knocking your opponents off-balance or sending them to the ground.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise
Benefit:You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip or unbalance combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip or unbalance a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your CMD whenever an opponent tries to trip or unbalance you.
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A few suggestions:
I don't think I agree that Sunder is a finesse tactic. The maneuver is literally about shattering an opponent's weapon or armor. Bypassing that armor could be considered finesse, but that's neither here nor there.
Improved Unarmed Strike+Improved Grapple=Martial Artist? It doesn't seem odd to me at all, my very first day in tae kwon do was spent learning how to put people in basic holds and break out of same.
You've left out a handful of maneuvers: Reposition, Drag, Dirty Trick, and Steal. Arguably Feint, since it requires Combat Expertise and has an Improved and Greater version, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you left it out.
One of the suggestions I've seen was this:
Deft Maneuvers: combines Improved Feint, Dirty Trick, Disarm, Trip, Reposition, and Steal.
Powerful Maneuvers: combines Improved Sunder, Bull Rush, Overrun, and Drag.
And then you took the Greater version of specific maneuvers.
I didn't love this either, because I feel like while feint, dirty trick, and steal might all work together, I don't feel like trip, disarm, and reposition do. Perhaps something like this:
Weapon Tactics: Disarm, Sunder
Underhanded Tactics: Dirty Trick, Steal, Feint
Positioning Tactics: Reposition, Drag
Powerful Tactics: Overrun, Bull Rush
Martial Arts: Improved Unarmed Strik, Grapple
I don't think this is , but hopefully they provoke some interesting thoughts and discussion.
Also, Unbalance is interesting. It's like Feint, but better. A lot better. Penalty to attack, AC, and Reflex saves, and you can use it in place of a melee attack. Doesn't make the defender susceptible to sneak attack, but definitely a competitive option.
I didn't love this either, because I feel like while feint, dirty trick, and steal might all work together, I don't feel like trip, disarm, and reposition do. Perhaps something like this:Weapon Tactics: Disarm, Sunder
Underhanded Tactics: Dirty Trick, Steal, Feint
Positioning Tactics: Reposition, Drag
Powerful Tactics: Overrun, Bull Rush
Martial Arts: Improved Unarmed Strik, GrappleI don't think this is , but hopefully they provoke some interesting thoughts and discussion.
I think your grouping, plus a variation of Evil Lincoln's brutal maneuvers may be an excellent combination on the path to finding THE ANSWER. Well, that and using improved/great weapon tactics, for example, will significantly cut down on the "feat" investment.
Oooh . . . I do like that. Much more satisfying than the various Strike feats like Bull Rush Strike. Thanks for pointing this out, I'll definitely be incorporating it!
I don't think this is , but hopefully they provoke some interesting thoughts and discussion.
What's the question? :P
Less silly, I do like your grouping of mauvers. it will save of feats at least.
I think the "question" varies a bit, depending on who you ask.=)
For me, it was, "How do I encourage the use and selection of combat maneuvers in a group who is too good at optimization for their own good?"
Several of my martial players have expressed an interest in the above groupings, where as before there was little to no interest.