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I have two questions about the disciple bite attack. First off it does not list the damage die in the description of dragon bite on page 382. What die is it? D4? Or is it the same die as your claw attack?
Second the description indicates the attack is made at your full base attack, does that mean it does not take the normal -5 penalty for attacking with a secondary natural weapon? My assumption is it should take the -5, but when a similar ability is described under barbarian animal fury it specifically says the attack is made at -5 base attack.
I have two questions about the disciple bite attack. First off it does not list the damage die in the description of dragon bite on page 382. What die is it? D4? Or is it the same die as your claw attack?
Second the description indicates the attack is made at your full base attack, does that mean it does not take the normal -5 penalty for attacking with a secondary natural weapon? My assumption is it should take the -5, but when a similar ability is described under barbarian animal fury it specifically says the attack is made at -5 base attack.
For a medium sized character a bite attack would normaly do 1d4.
The Dragon Disciple does however have more prominent teeth than a normal person.Since bite attacks normaly use a higher damage die than claw attacks I would however rule that they do 1d6+1½ Str.mod.
In keeping with traditional dragon fighting styles I would however rule the bite to be the primary attack and the claws as secundary attacks. Thus, the bite attacks at full attack bonus while the claws attack at -5.
Keep in mind that having 3 natural attacks makes it posible for the Dragon Disciple to take the multi-attack feat, thereby reducing the secundary attack penalty to -2.
Since bite attacks normaly use a higher damage die than claw attacks I would however rule that they do 1d6+1½ Str.mod.
In keeping with traditional dragon fighting styles I would however rule the bite to be the primary attack and the claws as secundary attacks. Thus, the bite attacks at full attack bonus while the claws attack at -5.Keep in mind that having 3 natural attacks makes it posible for the Dragon Disciple to take the multi-attack feat, thereby reducing the secundary attack penalty to -2.
Why str 1½ Str? The Dragon Disciple isn't a dragon yet. They will still have a mostly humanoid head so should do bite damage +½ Str like any other secondary attack.
Why str 1½ Str? The Dragon Disciple isn't a dragon yet. They will still have a mostly humanoid head so should do bite damage +½ Str like any other secondary attack.
Because the Dragon Disciple description says 1-½ times strength and because that is consistent with a primary attack bite.
Just a couple of clarifications.
A bite attack uses Str bonus x 1,5 only when it is the only attack a creature has (usually... see below, though).
Page 182:
"If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite — two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack."
A Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple is an exception to the rule, though (since he CAN use 1 1/2 Str Bonus, according to page 382... perhaps True Dragons have changed, as well - in 3.5, they used Str bonus x 1.5 with the tail Slap even in a full-attack with Claws, Bite and Wings, so it would not be surprising if they have been changed in Pathfinder even further).
Regarding what die he should use, we can use the various damages listed under the Form of the Dragon spells on page 286 in order to see how claws and bite work usually on a dragon.
Since all Claws in those descriptions deal damage one die lower than the Bite (Bite 2d8, Claws 2d6; Bite 2d6, Claw 1d8; Bite 1d8, Claws 1d6), it would be reasonable to scale the damage on the Bite of a dragon Disciple in a similar way (as suggested by Diego Winterborg). If he has Claws that deal 1d4 damage, he should use 1d6. If he has Claws that deal 1d3 damage, he should use 1d4. If he has Claws that deal 1d6 damage, he should use 1d8.
Regarding the fact that the Bite should be at -5, this could be true in 3.x (although it would have been Bite full, Claws -5), but in Pathfinder natural attacks have been 'streamlined'. Now some attacks are considered Primary no matter how many of them you possess (Claws and Bite are such an example), and as such, they use the Full BaB without any penalties. Other attacks are always considered Secondary, and as such they use the -5 (-2 if the creature possesses Multiattack), no matter how many of them.
You can check the Pathfinder Bestiary Preview to see how this works; as an example, the Dire Ape on page 10 has a melee attack of 1 Bite +6 and 2 Claws +6; since it has BaB +3, size -1, and Str +4, you can easily calculate that all attacks are made as Primary.
Another example is the cat on page 15 (again, 2 Claws and 1 Bite at Full BaB).
The Crag Linnorm on page 20 has three Primary attacks (2 Claws, 1 Bite) at full BaB, and 1 Tail at -5 (the behemoth doesn't possess the Multiattack feat).
And both Tigers (regular and Dire) on page 26 use their 2 Claws and 1 Bite at full BaB (the common Tiger has a +1 on both Claw attacks thanks to its Weapon Focus (claw) feat), but that's all).
Just my 2c.
Regarding the fact that the Bite should be at -5, this could be true in 3.x (although it would have been Bite full, Claws -5), but in Pathfinder natural attacks have been 'streamlined'.
Interesting. I will look forward to seeing the PF Bestiary. :)
... perhaps True Dragons have changed, as well - in 3.5, they used Str bonus x 1.5 with the tail Slap even in a full-attack with Claws, Bite and Wings, so it would not be surprising if they have been changed in Pathfinder even further).
God I hope so...maybe I can finally scrap my poor overused sheets of notebook paper that have all my dragon houserules =)
dont suppose there is a chance of getting an 'official' answer to this one?
Any official answers on these ??
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Per the Bestiary, p. 302, a medium creature's bite is 1d6 damage. Small is 1d4 and large is 1d8. This is all base damage, and individual creatures can vary from this, but it's probably a good guideline for PCs who get bites. (Or for that matter, claws, stingers, hooves, or other forms of natural attack that don't have a listed damage.)
Dragon Bite:
The only thing it doesn't say is what the damage die is.
There's also the implicit conclusion that since it gain 1.5 STR bonus to DMG that it is a 'primary attack', which would mean your CLAWS would then take the -5 penalty for secondary attacks. Then again, a notable difference between standard Natural Attacks and the BL Claw/Bite is that the BL attacks are not unlimited usage, so if they work slightly better (i.e. all using full BAB like the RAW says), I don't see the problem.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Dragon Bite:
The only thing it doesn't say is what the damage die is.
There's also the implicit conclusion that since it gain 1.5 STR bonus to DMG that it is a 'primary attack', which would mean your CLAWS would then take the -5 penalty for secondary attacks. Then again, a notable difference between standard Natural Attacks and the BL Claw/Bite is that the BL attacks are not unlimited usage, so if they work slightly better (i.e. all using full BAB like the RAW says), I don't see the problem.
Actually, both claws and bites are now primary attacks. Same table, p. 302 in the Bestiary.
Color me interested in this as well. I will be running a dragon-themed one-shot to introduce my fellow gamers to Pathfinder, and the second battle features a host of draconic baddies:
1 human cleric8 of Falazure, dragon god of stuff (darkness/death domains)
1 gnome sorc8(draconic:green)
1 halfling sorc8(draconic:black)
1 half-orc sorc1(draconic:red)/barb4/dragon disciple 3
1 half-orc sorc1(draconic:blue)/fighter4/dragon disciple 3
1 half-elf sorc2(draconic:white)/fighter3/dragon disciple 3
Three of those NPCs have bite attacks, and I'd like to know how they interact with manufactured weapon attacks. I think I understand correctly that they have the option to make a bite/claw/claw at full attack bonus, but what does that look like if they try a weapon/weapon/bite?
Take, for instance, the blue dragon disciple. He uses an orc double-axe with TWF and Double Slice. BAB +6, 20 Strength, weapon focus/spec in the double axe. It looks to me like his options are as follows.
1. Axe +10 (d8+9)/axe +10 (d8+9)/bite +9 (d4, same as claw? d6, one step greater than claw? +7)/axe +5 (d8+9).
2. Axe +10 (d8+9)/axe +10 (d8+9)/axe +5 (d8+9)/bite +4 (whatever die +7).
3. Bite +11 (whatever die +7)/claw +11 (d4+5)/claw +11 (d4+5).
Edit: Fixed ambiguous terminology. Also, added a #3.
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Take, for instance, the blue dragon disciple. He uses an orc double-axe with TWF and Double Slice. BAB +6, 20 Strength, weapon focus/spec in the double axe. It looks to me like his options are as follows.
1. Axe +10 (d8+9)/axe +10 (d8+9)/bite +9 (d4, same as claw? d6, one step greater than claw? +7)/axe +5 (d8+9).
2. Axe +10 (d8+9)/axe +10 (d8+9)/axe +5 (d8+9)/bite +4 (whatever die +7).
3. Bite +11 (whatever die +7)/claw +11 (d4+5)/claw +11 (d4+5).
Okay, to begin with, it's worth mentioning that he only gets the bite every time he generates claws, so despite not using the claws, he will still burn one of his 4+Cha uses each time.
Damages: I'm not clear where +9 is coming from. 20 Str is +5, the weapon spec ups it to +7. Double slice keeps you from halving the offhand, but shouldn't offer a bonus. He's not the Barb, so it's not from rage.
Per Bestiary p.302, a medium bite is 1d6. The DD getting 1.5 str on a bite is likely a nod to the fact that Dragons automatically get 1.5 on bite attacks. Regardless, it's explicit in the power, and not dependant on bite being a Primary attack.
Mixing natural and weapon attacks: "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."
Your options as I see them:
1. Axe(MH) +10 (1d8+7)/Axe(OH) +10 (1d8+7)/Axe(MH) +5 (1d8+7)/Bite +6 (1d6+7)
2. Axe(MH) +12 (1d8+7)/Axe(MH) +7 (1d8+7)/Bite +6 (1d6+7)/Claw +6 (1d4+2)
3. Bite +11 (1d6+7)/claw +11 (1d4+5)/claw +11 (1d4+5)
If the character involved were allowed the Multiattack feat, he could increase the bite and claw attacks in #1 and #2 to +9.
Does anyone know if this was addressed officially? I couldn't find anything in the errata about it.
Oddly enough we never noticed this as we just used the Natural Attack table in the Bestiary which says a medium creature bite attack is a 1D6. Odd that wouldn't be included in the Bite description under the DD prestige class. So the rule is there but it should be in the Players Guide.
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We have run it using the same die as the claw attack(1d4 and 1d6 at 7). Both attacks types say they are done at full attack bonus. It is basically the same as a tiger or lion, with claws and bite using the same bonus. Attacks are only secondary if they explicitly say they are such(see Horse in the bestiary).
Having run a DD up to 11, I can tell, form my experience, that you should not focus on being a natural weapon focused character. My character is having a heck of a time dealing with DR.
I like to try odd concept characters, and I wish a horrible death to this one so I can make a new one ; )
We have run it using the same die as the claw attack(1d4 and 1d6 at 7). Both attacks types say they are done at full attack bonus. It is basically the same as a tiger or lion, with claws and bite using the same bonus. Attacks are only secondary if they explicitly say they are such(see Horse in the bestiary).
Having run a DD up to 11, I can tell, form my experience, that you should not focus on being a natural weapon focused character. My character is having a heck of a time dealing with DR.
I like to try odd concept characters, and I wish a horrible death to this one so I can make a new one ; )
What problem are you having with DR? If you cant get your hands on an amulet of might fists (or make one given you are a caster) keep a magic weapon spell handy...
My level 10 DD (straight split Sorc 5 DD 5) is a monster with a 28 strength I arm wrestle with cloud giants.
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I guess with the right item combination if works well. The claws do count as magic at one point, but with things that have DR 10/good for instance, you really have to have your character ramp up on strength. My problem may have been that I wanted to be capable in melee and magic, so the strength was only 18. That was not enough to pass the DR.
yea magic weapon does stack with the amulet thats why i said if you CANT get the amulet use the spell.
As for good, well that is anyone but the holy types, you wont often havea good weapon even if you use them (in my experience). But I think splitting your focusis what has really hurt you. Only an 18 str at level 11? Your DD isnt going to do very much.
So, Voska66 is using 1D6 all the time and Shar Tahl is starting off with 1D4 and moving to 1D6 at 7th level as per the claw attack. Kolokotroni, what way did you end up ruling this?